Perseverance of the Saints, and Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-31

[makesends]

I would offer the key is the word faith as a work or labor of Christ love used to define a power. Not coming from us that were dead in their tresspapases and sin without God in this dying world towards him it has no power. They would be the ones spoken of verses 4-6

Hebrews 6 King James Version6 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of (dead) faith toward God,

dead works no power (faith)to please God that alone comes from God empowering us..

Hebrew 6:7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs (Life) meet for them (Christians) by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing (new spiritual life) from God:

Simply inspired from above not earthly (thorns and briers ) of the father of lies

Deuteronomy 32:1-2 King James Version32 Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words (living)of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:

Those again in verse 4-6 are those who hear the word inspired from heaven, it the law of God pricks there conscience but no new born again growth (tender herb)

Hebrew 6:8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

The believers are reckoned as green things . Green is used 44 times in that way to represent those born again.

He in many parables refers to the human race as grasshoppers

Isaiah 40:22 It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

Revelation 9:4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.

In the end it's all about inspiration not eathly of dying mankind.

Hebrew 6:9-10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

The key it accompanies salvation not something we could work to gain, our dead faith toward him. But the inspiration of the Holy Spirit that works in us to both (key) hear the word as it produces Green or eternal life .

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which worketh (coming down like rain) in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

The living faith of Christ or labor of love that He pours on us as rain

Many say God has no faith as power and needs none .

They again verses (4-6)are considered as thorns and briers. earthly inspired by the father of lies .

I'm as usual having a very hard time following your post, but what I do seem to pick out is that faith is power of God, not of man. That I agree with completely, but I don't understand how you are applying it to the thread. Are you saying it answers the use Arminians make of those two passages (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-31)? Or are you saying that it is relevant to a proper exegesis of the passages, or what are you saying?

You call it "the key". The key to what? And how so?

 

[makesends]

The "Work around" that I'm aware of is that the "impossibility" only exists AS LONG AS one continues to: "crucify the Son of God all over again and subject him to public disgrace."

Should one come to his senses, and repent, then restoration is possible.

That's "theology" of course.

Very much like one of my favorite undeveloped thoughts, centered around somewhat of an unusual use of "it is impossible".

 

[Mr GLee]

I'm as usual having a very hard time following your post, but what I do seem to pick out is that faith is power of God, not of man. That I agree with completely, but I don't understand how you are applying it to the thread. Are you saying it answers the use Arminians make of those two passages (Hebrews 6:4-6; 10:26-31)? Or are you saying that it is relevant to a proper exegesis of the passages, or what are you saying?

You call it "the key". The key to what? And how so?

Hi Thanks for the reply

Sorry for the bad grammar as a extra work.

What I offer applies to all believers What I call the key is the two fold power of the work of Christ's faith or labor of Love . Both again two fold to hear and empower us to do it to His good pleasure. His faith working in or towards us the powerless

Philippians 213 For it is God (faith) which worketh in you both to will (let there be)and to do of his good pleasure.. . . . . (and it was very God good)

Faith power cannot be separated from the work. The law of faith. "Let there be" the law and the testimony was "God alone is good "

Dead faith, dead works. . . no power .Let there be and nothing changes nothing

It refers to what we offer towards him as ceremonial laws baptism, laying on of hand the temporal things seen,

.Our human faith towards him do not move God as a way of saying well done .(self edifying)

The ceremonial law is the shadow of the power of Christ faith the power we have it in us but not of us It's the same food the disciples knew not of .Hearing the will of the father and doing it to his great power of faith.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

In that way if we claim to have the faith of Christ in respect to our own self (powerless) then we have tasted of the eternal but have not eaten it .Again like Jesus when he did the will of the father strengthened by the daily bread .

James 2 give a good example of those who blaspheme the name as the power of Christ faith and offer it towards God, , , again not coming from God

The loving commandment The "let there be" the power of God ,

James 2King James Version My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (faithless dying mankind )

In that way throughout the bible the word faith represents his power working with us as it worked with Rehab and Abraham

James 2:20-26 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith (Christ) without works (Christ) is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works ( Christ yoked him) , when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his works,(Christ) and by works was faith (Christ) it made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, (having been given the faith or power) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works ( Christ) a man is justified, and not by faith only.Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works (Christ's) , when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Yes the indwelling Spirit according to the living word the incorruptible seed

Some say born again of literal water. Not of the Spirit

And "some say" the earth is flat, and we've never been to the Moon.

 

[Josheb]

Unnecessary.

It was joke.

 

[makesends]

Hi Thanks for the reply

Sorry for the bad grammar as a extra work.

What I offer applies to all believers What I call the key is the two fold power of the work of Christ's faith or labor of Love . Both again two fold to hear and empower us to do it to His good pleasure. His faith working in or towards us the powerless

Philippians 213 For it is God (faith) which worketh in you both to will (let there be)and to do of his good pleasure.. . . . . (and it was very God good)

Faith power cannot be separated from the work. The law of faith. "Let there be" the law and the testimony was "God alone is good "

Dead faith, dead works. . . no power .Let there be and nothing changes nothing

It refers to what we offer towards him as ceremonial laws baptism, laying on of hand the temporal things seen,

.Our human faith towards him do not move God as a way of saying well done .(self edifying)

The ceremonial law is the shadow of the power of Christ faith the power we have it in us but not of us It's the same food the disciples knew not of .Hearing the will of the father and doing it to his great power of faith.

2 Corinthians 4:7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us.

In that way if we claim to have the faith of Christ in respect to our own self (powerless) then we have tasted of the eternal but have not eaten it .Again like Jesus when he did the will of the father strengthened by the daily bread .

James 2 give a good example of those who blaspheme the name as the power of Christ faith and offer it towards God, , , again not coming from God

The loving commandment The "let there be" the power of God ,

James 2King James Version My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons. (faithless dying mankind )

In that way throughout the bible the word faith represents his power working with us as it worked with Rehab and Abraham

James 2:20-26 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith (Christ) without works (Christ) is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works ( Christ yoked him) , when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith (Christ's) wrought with his works,(Christ) and by works was faith (Christ) it made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, (having been given the faith or power) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works ( Christ) a man is justified, and not by faith only.Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works (Christ's) , when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Fine! But how do you intend that to relate to the OP (the opening post), or the title of this "thread" (main subject under discussion). I'm talking about Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 —what do the things you are saying have to treat with those two passages of Hebrews? (I'm not saying that they don't. What I'm asking is for you to show plainly how they do apply, or relate, to those two passages of Hebrews.)

 

[Mr GLee]

Fine! But how do you intend that to relate to the OP (the opening post), or the title of this "thread" (main subject under discussion). I'm talking about Hebrews 6:4-6 and Hebrews 10:26-31 —what do the things you are saying have to treat with those two passages of Hebrews? (I'm not saying that they don't. What I'm asking is for you to show plainly how they do apply, or relate, to those two passages of Hebrews.)

Thanks I would offer.

Sorry for length .I believe we must be careful how we hear who we hear .

Many from my experience will not acknowledge God has faith or even needs it '

Faith the mystery word that seems to cause much confusion. Having a understanding of faith and how it works as a work in us is first and foremost in any doctrine of God

The verses you offered in Hebrews have to do as "how we see the understanding of the truth of God called faith" and remembering where it comes from. Not of the apostles as messengers which some do put thier faith in dying mankind.

Christ's faith or power that works in us is not of our own understanding we offer towards him. Our private interpretation of what we think he is teaching us. . . everyone has a opinion .

Natural faithless man is accredited with no power to please our Holy Father , zero, not little .They have nothing coming from God's understanding thats works in us who do believe

The power to both hear and will , to finish, it according to His good pleasure As Deuteronomy informs us below he hides his understanding called faith from them.

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith.. . . .Again no faith not little, none that could please

The word faith used 336 times is always associated with the power of God working in mankind The above no faith dead works one time

Numbers 12:7 My servant Moses is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.. . . Faithfull, full of Christ's faith as grace The filing of the Holy Spirit . Christ's faith working with Moses the power to both hear and do it to the good pleasure of the Holy father same aplies to David moved by the faith or power. of Christ

1 Samuel 22:14 Then Ahimelech answered the king, and said, And who is so faithful among all thy servants as David, which is

Hebrew 4:6 Tasting of His understanding (faith) but not moved to perform it would be likened to the many in Matthew 6 .Partarkers but not called by the faith unseen will of God .Therefore they were not known by God.

The same is applied to Hebrews 10 they received knowledge of the power but were not moved to believe and do it to the good pleasure of the Father .Therefore that had no living sacrifice to offer .

He calls us who had no faith giving us His faith or power .Calling us little faith the golden measure unknown . Just enough to please Him. He is the storeroom of faith or power of God We have it working in us but would never say it comes from us ..

Five times the phrase "little faith" is given.

Matthew 16:8 Which when Jesus perceived, he said unto them, O ye of little faith, why reason ye among yourselves, because ye have brought no bread?

The apostles are shown as requiring God increase the little faith (power of God) that is given to them working in them You cold say I believe help me in my unbelief strengthen me to do your will not of our will it has no power to please God .Yoked with Christ. He can make our burdens lighter with a living hope beyond the grave .

Luke 17:5-6 King James Version And the apostles said unto the Lord, Increase our faith.And the Lord said, If ye had faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye might say unto this sycamine tree, Be thou plucked up by the root, and be thou planted in the sea; and it should obey you.

Faith power of God unto salvation the key or gospel

Again not coming from dying faithless mankind . Some would say we do need to trust in the temporal things seen as the gospel key (power of God. Using Peter in whom some call the Pope infalible teacher master as the key.

Matthew 16:123 and I will give to thee the keys of the reign of the heavens, and whatever thou mayest bind upon the earth shall be having been bound in the heavens, and whatever thou mayest loose upon the earth shall be having been loosed in the heavens.' Then did he charge his disciples that they may say to no one that he is Jesus the Christ. From that time began Jesus to shew to his disciples that it is necessary for him to go away to Jerusalem, and to suffer many things from the elders, and chief priests, and scribes, and to be put to death, and the third day to rise.And having taken him aside, Peter began to rebuke him, saying, `Be kind to thyself, sir; this shall not be to thee;' and he having turned, said to Peter, `Get thee behind me, adversary! thou art a stumbling-block to me, for thou dost not mind the things of God, (Faith) but the things of men.

No faith (power) coming from Peter .(the temporal dying, things seen faithless )

Below we a given the tool to rightly divide the parables.The eternal spiritual not seen must be mixed with the temporal or historical seen

2 Corinthian4:18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal;( No faith) but the things which are not seen (faith) are eternal.

If there is no mixing of the two. Historical temporal seen with spiritual eternal not seen . then there can be no gospel rest. spoken of in Hebrew 4:1-2

 

[Eleanor]

Hebrews 6:4-6: "4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."
Hebrews 10:26-31: "26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Alright. Let's deal with this. I've got several takes myself, and while I like one of them better than anything I've heard, I find it hard to express it, where it doesn't sound like an excuse, and I will admit that even to me it sounds speculative. I think even the Arminians can agree, however, that the Elect will be in Heaven, and cannot ultimately lose their salvation. But a "Regenerate Believer" —not so much.

But I'd like to hear a good honest treatment of it, rather than something Arminians and others rightly scoff at for shrugging off the question Hebrews 6 and 11 invoke.

So here's a few definitions / definite statements to use for axiomatic backdrop common to at least the Reformed and Calvinists, relevant to the subject of this OP. Maybe you could say them better, and add relevant axiomatic statements to the list. I'd particularly appreciate @Josheb shredding this list and rebuilding it.
1. The Elect are forever Elect; God will complete what he has begun.
2. The Elect are regenerated by the Spirit of God, at some point prior to death —and that, with definite results in-keeping-with godliness.
3. All but the saved are condemned, not saved.

4. Not much is "automatic" as the self-determinist says is the logical rendering of what Calvinists/Reformed believe. The author of Hebrews assumes that God accomplishes perseverance of the Elect by means of (among other things) their efforts. (See Heb 4:11, and Heb 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end"; 4:11; 5:7-9 and no doubt others)

Or is that simply a statement identifying those who do not share in Christ, perseverance being a work of God in you (Php 2:13)?

5. The Spirit of God can do whatever it will, and is unaccountable to us. (John 3)
6. Hebrews 6 and 10 are inspired Scripture, just as much as any other Scriptures, and as such, they mean what they say, but are also not in opposition to any of the rest of Scripture.
7. TULIP; it all hangs together, just as all His attributes are one, in God.
8. 1 Corinthians 3:15 says, "If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire."
9. The Old Testament parallels and types are not exact, though descriptive; when Israel repented of her practices, it did not mean she was eternally saved, down to the last Jew. And when an individual repented, it did not mean they were of the Elect.

Too general? Which are and which are not?
Sacrifices were pretty exact.

x. There is a sense in which all fact is monergistic. (Ha! This one deserves at least one thread on its own!) (This one I'm not numbering yet, until I hear maybe some commentary on its relevance, and probably some better ways to state it. I consider it completely relevant, and wouldn't mind very much if this thread sloughed off into this tangent, though I'd prefer it was dealt with in a diverging thread).
I would suggest reading through Hebrews (it's not very long—only 13 chapters) before answering, (though if you are very familiar with Hebrews, do as you please. I welcome your comments). There are several places in it that bear on the language the author uses in 6:4-6 and 10:26-31. I include a few below that may be among them.

Immediate Context, Hebrews
—2:4 gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will; compare to 6:4 ("who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God") and 10:26 ("knowledge of the truth")?
—3:14ff God accomplishes his ends by means of (at least) our efforts

See Php 2:13 for the source of our efforts, without which there are no efforts.

—Concerning these, consider 4:3 and "we who have believed enter that rest...yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world."

The emphasis is "finished," no more work to be done.
God calls us to enter his finished (not temporary one-day) rest, where we need to do no more work (for our salvation).

—What is implied by the last part of 9:28? "Christ...will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Christ appears twice, once to bear sin and die (during Roman empire), and once to bring salvation (the resurrection, the consummation of the salvation purchased on the cross, as well as demonstration that Jesus' “blood of the new covenant” saved His people from their sin).

—Is 12:25-27 relevant to the question —maybe even a restatement (with added implications)?

The whole book is a warning against apostasy, seemingly of new Hebrew Christians who were considering a return to Judaism, for whatever reason--rejection by their families, disinheritance, persecution, etc.
Heb 12:25-27 is warning of the second coming, that as God shook the earth (mountain) at Sinai, so he will shake the heaven and earth at his second coming to shake the wicked out of it. However, the kingdom will not be shaken (v.28).

 

[Eleanor]

Hebrews 6:4-6: "4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace."

In light of Heb 3:7-11, I see it as a warning (to professing Christians whose apostasy would prove that their faith was not genuine) based on the rebellion in the wilderness (Nu 14).
After seeing the nature of Canaan they refused to go into Canaan (rest from their enemies, Josh 1:13, Ex 33:14 Dt 12:9-10, 25:19),
where their rebellion resulted in God exiling them in the wilderness until they all died.
As God had exiled them from Canaan after they had been introduced to the nature of Canaan and retreated from going into Canaan's rest, so he would exile these professing Christians to damnation who, after tasting the nature of salvation rest in Jesus Christ refused to go in.

Hebrews 10:26-31: "26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think someone deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified them, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “It is mine to avenge; I will repay,”and again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

If we reject the only remedy (Jesus Christ) for our condemnation (Ro 5:18), no remedy is left and we perish in our sin.

Alright. Let's deal with this. I've got several takes myself, and while I like one of them better than anything I've heard, I find it hard to express it, where it doesn't sound like an excuse, and I will admit that even to me it sounds speculative. I think even the Arminians can agree, however, that the Elect will be in Heaven, and cannot ultimately lose their salvation. But a "Regenerate Believer" —not so much.

But I'd like to hear a good honest treatment of it, rather than something Arminians and others rightly scoff at for shrugging off the question Hebrews 6 and 11 invoke.


So here's a few definitions / definite statements to use for axiomatic backdrop common to at least the Reformed and Calvinists, relevant to the subject of this OP. Maybe you could say them better, and add relevant axiomatic statements to the list. I'd particularly appreciate @Josheb shredding this list and rebuilding it.

1. The Elect are forever Elect; God will complete what he has begun.
2. The Elect are regenerated by the Spirit of God, at some point prior to death —and that, with definite results in-keeping-with godliness.
3. All but the saved are condemned, not saved.
4. Not much is "automatic" as the self-determinist says is the logical rendering of what Calvinists/Reformed believe. The author of Hebrews assumes that God accomplishes perseverance of the Elect by means of (among other things) their efforts. (See Heb 4:11, and Heb 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end"; 4:11; 5:7-9 and no doubt others)
5. The Spirit of God can do whatever it will, and is unaccountable to us. (John 3)
6. Hebrews 6 and 10 are inspired Scripture, just as much as any other Scriptures, and as such, they mean what they say, but are also not in opposition to any of the rest of Scripture.
7. TULIP; it all hangs together, just as all His attributes are one, in God.
8. 1 Corinthians 3:15 says, "If any man’s work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as through fire."
9. The Old Testament parallels and types are not exact, though descriptive; when Israel repented of her practices, it did not mean she was eternally saved, down to the last Jew. And when an individual repented, it did not mean they were of the Elect.
x. There is a sense in which all fact is monergistic. (Ha! This one deserves at least one thread on its own!) (This one I'm not numbering yet, until I hear maybe some commentary on its relevance, and probably some better ways to state it. I consider it completely relevant, and wouldn't mind very much if this thread sloughed off into this tangent, though I'd prefer it was dealt with in a diverging thread).

I would suggest reading through Hebrews (it's not very long—only 13 chapters) before answering, (though if you are very familiar with Hebrews, do as you please. I welcome your comments). There are several places in it that bear on the language the author uses in 6:4-6 and 10:26-31. I include a few below that may be among them.

Immediate Context, Hebrews
—2:4 gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will; compare to 6:4 ("who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God") and 10:26 ("knowledge of the truth")?
—3:14ff God accomplishes his ends by means of (at least) our efforts
—Concerning these, consider 4:3 and "we who have believed enter that rest...yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world."
—What is implied by the last part of 9:28? "Christ...will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."
—Is 12:25-27 relevant to the question —maybe even a restatement (with added implications)?

 

[makesends]

In light of Heb 3:7-11, I see it as a warning (to professing Christians whose apostasy would prove that their faith was not genuine) based on the rebellion in the wilderness (Nu 14).

Are these professing Christians, "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age"? How can a person who is only a "professing Christian" taste the heavenly gift, and share in the Holy Spirit?

If someone is only a professing Christian, they are unregenerate still, no? How can the unregenerate taste the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age? Did the blood of the covenant sanctify them?

After seeing the nature of Canaan they refused to go into Canaan (rest from their enemies, Josh 1:13, Ex 33:14 Dt 12:9-10, 25:19),
where their rebellion resulted in God exiling them in the wilderness until they all died.
As God had exiled them from Canaan after they had been introduced to the nature of Canaan and retreated from going into Canaan's rest, so he would exile these professing Christians to damnation who, after tasting the nature of salvation rest in Jesus Christ refused to go in.

If we reject the only remedy (Jesus Christ) for our condemnation (Ro 5:18), no remedy is left and we perish in our sin.

Then, I assume you are saying that these reprobate were never actually saved. How can they, then, taste 'the nature of salvation rest'?

 

[Mr GLee]

If someone is only a professing Christian, they are unregenerate still, no? How can the unregenerate taste the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age? Did the blood of the covenant sanctify them?

I would offer. .

Tasted is not eating as entering one's soul as in seeing. . trusting.

Psalm 34:8 O taste and see that the Lord is good: blessed is the man that trusteth in him

The kind of seeing that produces trust.

The kind of food the disciples knew not of to both hear the will of the father as taste and do

John 4:33-35 King James Version Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

The 500 who ate the bread , Many followed and saw as in tasting the miracles The disciples in John 6 that tasted followed but walked away . . not be drawn by the Father.

The many in Matthew 6 who claimed to know Christ but did not . He never knew them that tasted but did not obey . .they were not called

It is both tasting.. . . . . empowering to do the will. The work of Christ .

Some murmur like. Jonah who wanted to die . God is not served by dying human will in any way shape or form.

Philippians 2:13-14 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

A person can eat ceremonial wafers and drink the blood of grapes all day and it will come out as draught

Matthew 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
4. Not much is "automatic" as the self-determinist says is the logical rendering of what Calvinists/Reformed believe. The author of Hebrews assumes that God accomplishes perseverance of the Elect by means of (among other things) their efforts. (See Heb 4:11, and Heb 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end"; 4:11; 5:7-9 and no doubt others)

Or is that simply a statement identifying those who do not share in Christ, perseverance being a work of God in you (Php 2:13)?

As of course you know me, I consider all things in which we put forth effort of any value to be in essence monergistic —that is, not synergistic in the sense that our efforts improve or complete what God is doing. We are "In Christ". So, yes. Those who do not persevere are not in Christ.

makesends said:
9. The Old Testament parallels and types are not exact, though descriptive; when Israel repented of her practices, it did not mean she was eternally saved, down to the last Jew. And when an individual repented, it did not mean they were of the Elect.

Too general? Which are and which are not?
Sacrifices were pretty exact.

My intent was not to identify how closely anything in particular is to exact, but, as applies to the Hebrews references in question, to mention that while there are perhaps implications from the parallels—the Chosen Nation and the Elect Body of Christ—not all things equate.

But I did intend to hint at the notion that while God, i.e. the Spirit of God, can be said to indwell and cause his Elect to persevere, there may be something to the notion that those who are like the seed thrown among the rocks, and those who are choked out by the thorns, may exhibit activity of the Spirit, or at least, the appearance of it. They may attend, they may pursue knowledge of spiritual things, they may do what the Elect do, or, at least appear to. But the Elect will persevere—in Christ; but in the context of the OP here, the reprobate will not.

makesends said:
Immediate Context, Hebrews
—2:4 gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will; compare to 6:4 ("who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God") and 10:26 ("knowledge of the truth")?
—3:14ff God accomplishes his ends by means of (at least) our efforts

See Php 2:13 for the source of our efforts, without which there are no efforts.

I agree wholeheartedly. It is God who works in us both to will and to do, according to his good pleasure.

makesends said:
—Concerning these, consider 4:3 and "we who have believed enter that rest...yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world."

The emphasis is "finished," no more work to be done.
God calls us to enter his finished (not temporary one-day) rest, where we need to do no more work (for our salvation).

Agreed again. "Already but not yet", in fact. In Christ, it is true —even true from the beginning of the world.

makesends said:
—What is implied by the last part of 9:28? "Christ...will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Christ appears twice, once to bear sin and die (during Roman empire), and once to bring salvation (the resurrection, the consummation of the salvation purchased on the cross, as well as demonstration that Jesus' “blood of the new covenant” saved His people from their sin).

Exactly. He has saved us, and WILL save us.

makesends said:
—Is [Hebrews]12:25-27 relevant to the question —maybe even a restatement (with added implications)?

The whole book is a warning against apostasy, seemingly of new Hebrew Christians who were considering a return to Judaism, for whatever reason--rejection by their families, disinheritance, persecution, etc.
Heb 12:25-27 is warning of the second coming, that as God shook the earth (mountain) at Sinai, so he will shake the heaven and earth at his second coming to shake the wicked out of it. However, the kingdom will not be shaken (v.28).

Amen! "Even so, come Lord Jesus!"

But, as the Arminian would ask, why warn the Elect? —After all, if they are Elect, they will not fall away! I say that it's because the warning accomplishes everything for which it is given: Both, to keep the Elect (Perseverance), and even, I think, to leave the Reprobate without excuse.

 

[Mr GLee]

My intent was not to identify how closely anything in particular is to exact, but, as applies to the Hebrews references in question, to mention that while there are perhaps implications from the parallels—the Chosen Nation and the Elect Body of Christ—not all things equate.

I would offer .

Chosen nation chosen to represent all elected from the foundation, the 6 days he did work God using the outward Jew to demonstrate how God works in the affairs of mankind .as a inward born again Jew the Holy Sp[irt as promiesd woul;d rename his bride which he did in acts to a more befitting name "Christian" .Literally meaning "resident of the city of Christ, prepared as the bride named after the founder, her husband, Christ
Christian the chosen nation made up of all the nations as families of the whole world. Christian a word that seems to lost its meaning and usage in many cases Some say its a derogatory word from the devil

Romans 2:28 -9 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God using the temporal dying things seen to give us his unseen understanding of His faith as a labor of his love working in mankind

Romans informs, Whosoever has not the born again Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to him

 

[Eleanor]

Are these professing Christians, "those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age"? How can a person who is only a "professing Christian" taste the heavenly gift, and share in the Holy Spirit?
If someone is only a professing Christian, they are unregenerate still, no? How can the unregenerate taste the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age? Did the blood of the covenant sanctify them?

Then, I assume you are saying that these reprobate were never actually saved. How can they, then, taste 'the nature of salvation rest'?

Saul experienced the working of the Holy Spirit, as did those in Mt 7:22-23.
That does not necessarily mean one is born again.

 

[Eleanor]

makesends said:
4. Not much is "automatic" as the self-determinist says is the logical rendering of what Calvinists/Reformed believe. The author of Hebrews assumes that God accomplishes perseverance of the Elect by means of (among other things) their efforts. (See Heb 4:11, and Heb 3:14 "We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end"; 4:11; 5:7-9 and no doubt others)

As of course you know me, I consider all things in which we put forth effort of any value to be in essence monergistic —that is, not synergistic in the sense that our efforts improve or complete what God is doing. We are "In Christ". So, yes. Those who do not persevere are not in Christ.

makesends said:
9. The Old Testament parallels and types are not exact, though descriptive; when Israel repented of her practices, it did not mean she was eternally saved, down to the last Jew. And when an individual repented, it did not mean they were of the Elect.

My intent was not to identify how closely anything in particular is to exact, but, as applies to the Hebrews references in question, to mention that while there are perhaps implications from the parallels—the Chosen Nation and the Elect Body of Christ—not all things equate.

But I did intend to hint at the notion that while God, i.e. the Spirit of God, can be said to indwell and cause his Elect to persevere, there may be something to the notion that those who are like the seed thrown among the rocks, and those who are choked out by the thorns, may exhibit activity of the Spirit, or at least, the appearance of it. They may attend, they may pursue knowledge of spiritual things, they may do what the Elect do, or, at least appear to. But the Elect will persevere—in Christ; but in the context of the OP here, the reprobate will not.

makesends said:
Immediate Context, Hebrews
—2:4 gifts of the Holy Spirit distributed according to his will; compare to 6:4 ("who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God") and 10:26 ("knowledge of the truth")?
—3:14ff God accomplishes his ends by means of (at least) our efforts

I agree wholeheartedly. It is God who works in us both to will and to do, according to his good pleasure.

makesends said:
—Concerning these, consider 4:3 and "we who have believed enter that rest...yet his works have been finished since the creation of the world."

Agreed again. "Already but not yet", in fact. In Christ, it is true —even true from the beginning of the world.

makesends said:
—What is implied by the last part of 9:28? "Christ...will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him."

Exactly. He has saved us, and WILL save us.

makesends said:
—Is [Hebrews]12:25-27 relevant to the question —maybe even a restatement (with added implications)?
Amen! "Even so, come Lord Jesus!"
But, as the Arminian would ask, why warn the Elect? —After all, if they are Elect, they will not fall away! I say that it's because the warning accomplishes everything for which it is given: Both, to keep the Elect (Perseverance), and even, I think, to leave the Reprobate without excuse.

Precisely!

 

[makesends]

I would offer .

Chosen nation chosen to represent all elected from the foundation, the 6 days he did work God using the outward Jew to demonstrate how God works in the affairs of mankind .as a inward born again Jew the Holy Sp[irt as promiesd woul;d rename his bride which he did in acts to a more befitting name "Christian" .Literally meaning "resident of the city of Christ, prepared as the bride named after the founder, her husband, Christ
Christian the chosen nation made up of all the nations as families of the whole world. Christian a word that seems to lost its meaning and usage in many cases Some say its a derogatory word from the devil

Romans 2:28 -9 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

God using the temporal dying things seen to give us his unseen understanding of His faith as a labor of his love working in mankind

Romans informs, Whosoever has not the born again Spirit of Christ then neither do they belong to him

But that's a tangent I didn't mean to get into. The question is not whether or what or why about the Jews. The question is whether anyone besides the Elect can have what the Elect have, short of actual perseverance, or is that only a fiction? and we have to look elsewhere for our answer to what sounds like the Saved losing their salvation, as some claim that Hebrews teaches. Can someone be enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste the goodness of God and the powers of the coming age, and not be born again?

 

[makesends]

Saul experienced the working of the Holy Spirit, as did those in Mt 7:22-23.
That does not necessarily mean one is born again.

Yep. But would that imply this degree of experience on their part is possible without being born again? That's quite a list!

 

[Mr GLee]

But that's a tangent I didn't mean to get into. The question is not whether or what or why about the Jews. The question is whether anyone besides the Elect can have what the Elect have, short of actual perseverance, or is that only a fiction? and we have to look elsewhere for our answer to what sounds like the Saved losing their salvation, as some claim that Hebrews teaches. Can someone be enlightened, tasted the heavenly gift, share in the Holy Spirit, taste the goodness of God and the powers of the coming age, and not be born again?

Yoked with Christ short of actual perseverance ?

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Better thing accompany those elected from the foundation of the world. They not only tasted to living word " the food the disciples knew not of" but took it into thier new born again souls.

The better thing that accompanies salvation (not work to gain) The power of God yoked with dying mankind .Why crucify him over and over and call that perseverance??

Hebrews 6:9 -10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Eleanor]

Yep. But would that imply this degree of experience on their part is possible without being born again? That's quite a list!

I see it all as part of the simple act of "tasting" (getting a look at) salvation rest in Jesus Christ and refusing to enter it,
paralleled to the Israelites' simple act of "tasting" (Nu 13:26-28) the nature of Canaan rest (Dt 25:19) and refusing to enter it.

I see the parallel as giving us the correct way to understand Heb 10:26-31.

 

[makesends]

Yoked with Christ short of actual perseverance ?

Matthew 11:30 For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.

Better thing accompany those elected from the foundation of the world. They not only tasted to living word " the food the disciples knew not of" but took it into thier new born again souls.

The better thing that accompanies salvation (not work to gain) The power of God yoked with dying mankind .Why crucify him over and over and call that perseverance??

Hebrews 6:9 -10 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.
For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

If you meant your first question to restate the point of the OP, great. Close enough. That restatement was cogent and relevant. But you don't answer it. You do tell what is better, and truly enough, I suppose, but you still don't answer the question. Explain your quote and your statements —How do they answer the question? I'm not the first one to tell you that your writing is hard to follow. I rarely understand just what you are trying to say, and I doubt I'm the first to tell you it isn't only your language difficulty that makes this so.

You talk as though one should be able to figure out what you are getting at and apply it to their lives, or doctrines, or mindset, or thoughts when reading scripture, or maybe something else, I don't know.

The closest I saw, besides the first sentence of this post, is when you said, "Why crucify him over and over and call that perseverance?" But besides using some of the words of the text being discussed and a word from the title of the OP, I don't see how you are relating that to the subject of the OP. And who is saying that those being discussed in Hebrews, (or anyone else), is calling the crucifying-over-and-over, "perseverance"???