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Penal Substitution

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The other issue is you've yet to address any of the points I've made in my initial point. As to what wrath is &c, the cup &c.
That is deliberate, but not malicious or avoidance. I wanted to examine your “proof texts” one at a time and simply started with the first. Does this mean Isaiah 53 DOESN’T talk about the WRATH of God and we can move on to the next “Proof Text” posted?

Otherwise I missed where you answered my original question about where Isaiah supports what you claim it supports.
 
That is deliberate, but not malicious or avoidance. I wanted to examine your “proof texts” one at a time and simply started with the first.
I've never stated a thing about maliciousness. But you have avoided, and continue to do so.
Does this mean Isaiah 53 DOESN’T talk about the WRATH of God
You tell me brother.
and we can move on to the next “Proof Text” posted?
Why put "Proof Text" in quotation marks? What "Proof Text" are you speaking of?
Otherwise I missed where you answered my original question about where Isaiah supports what you claim it supports.
Lol. So I still wait for your answers to my questions. I've answered yours. Mine haven't been answered, they've been dismissed.
 
Since I am FREQUENTLY accused of not understanding wrath, let’s take a moment to define it.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

wrath (noun)​

  1. strong vengeful anger or indignation
  2. retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement
I am always amused that in SERMONS, I am instructed about how great the SUFFERING of Jesus was and how we DESERVED so great a suffering … which implies meaning #1.
In discussions in which “I don’t understand”, WRATH is always some form of definition #2 (until is is convenient to again discuss how great HE suffered and how much WE deserved it, then it is back to WRATH #1).

… But I just don’t understand.
[which is true … GOD THE FATHER loves GOD THE SON and JESUS defeated sin and death, not survived God’s PUNISHMENT … evil men killed Jesus according to God’s plan].
 
Lol. So I still wait for your answers to my questions. I've answered yours. Mine haven't been answered, they've been dismissed.
No. You were happy to chase the bunny trail of my secondary point but never answered the direct question about where it says wrath as you claim that whole chapter supports.

However, in the spirit of fellowship, I will humor your diversion from explicit text into opinions on interpreting symbolic cups. Give me a moment to reread the questions and look up the verses.
 
Since I am FREQUENTLY accused of not understanding wrath, let’s take a moment to define it.

Merriam-Webster Dictionary

wrath (noun)​

  1. strong vengeful anger or indignation
  2. retributory punishment for an offense or a crime : divine chastisement
There is more to it than "Merriam-Webster."
I am always amused that in SERMONS, I am instructed about how great the SUFFERING of Jesus was
I can believe this part.
and how we DESERVED so great a suffering
I highly doubt this portion as His suffering for us is never expressed as deserved, but as "the just (righteous) for the unjust (unrighteous.)" Your claim to it being "deserved" seems "a little" "forced."
… which implies meaning #1.
No, not at all.
In discussions in which “I don’t understand”,
Agreed, you don't and will prove it...
WRATH is always some form of definition #2 (until is is convenient to again discuss how great HE suffered and how much WE deserved it, then it is back to WRATH #1).
There is much more to God's exercise of wrath than you know.
… But I just don’t understand.'
Agreed.
[which is true … GOD THE FATHER loves GOD THE SON and JESUS defeated sin and death, not survived God’s PUNISHMENT … evil men killed Jesus according to God’s plan].
Read Acts 2:23, Isaiah 53 (look at and face 53:10).
 
No. You were happy to chase the bunny trail of my secondary point but never answered the direct question about where it says wrath as you claim that whole chapter supports.

However, in the spirit of fellowship, I will humor your diversion from explicit text into opinions on interpreting symbolic cups. Give me a moment to reread the questions and look up the verses.
You didn't address my points, and still have not.

What was that cup? What did it mean in OT Scriptures? "Symbolic cups" is merely your way of dismissing Biblical terms and revelation, and facilitates your avoidance of doing so.

I'm still waiting for you to address my points.
 
So for now I ask, the cup, what did it represent, the cup the Father gave Him to drink (John 18:11?) And with that in mind, what did the cup represent in OT Scripture?
John 18:1-11 [NASB]
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples. 2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3 Judas then, having received the [Roman] cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am [He.]" And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, "I am [He,]" they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am [He;] so if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

  • Matthew 20:22-23 [NASB] 22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able." 23 He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on [My] left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
  • Matthew 26:26-29 [NASB] 26 While they were eating, Jesus took [some] bread, and after a blessing, He broke [it] and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
  • Matthew 26:36-46 [NASB] 36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me." 39 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." 40 And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you [men] could not keep watch with Me for one hour? 41 "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." 43 Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more. 45 Then He came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 "Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"
The cup in John 18 is “My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins” … the death by crucifixion that he was about to suffer to redeem us.

To ask about “the Cup” in the OT is too open and general a question. I have not done a comprehensive study of ‘the cup’ in the OT … nor is it something that would particularly interest me to study on a whim.

I have addressed your question as fully as I am able.
I see no particular association with WRATH in the NT, only with his death for our redemption (which is not automatically synonymous with either definition of wrath). Once again, I see Cristus Victor and not GOD punishing GOD.
 
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I highly doubt this portion as His suffering for us is never expressed as deserved, but as "the just (righteous) for the unjust (unrighteous.)" Your claim to it being "deserved" seems "a little" "forced."
“He took the punishment that we deserved” … a verbatim quote from more than one preacher [it must be a stock phrase from somewhere].
 
Good grief man, I asked you to give me a moment to go and read the question and verse!
OK. I've answered yours several times. You've yet to answer mine.
John 18:1-11 [NASB]
1 When Jesus had spoken these words, He went forth with His disciples over the ravine of the Kidron, where there was a garden, in which He entered with His disciples. 2 Now Judas also, who was betraying Him, knew the place, for Jesus had often met there with His disciples. 3 Judas then, having received the [Roman] cohort and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, came there with lanterns and torches and weapons. 4 So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?" 5 They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am [He.]" And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. 6 So when He said to them, "I am [He,]" they drew back and fell to the ground. 7 Therefore He again asked them, "Whom do you seek?" And they said, "Jesus the Nazarene." 8 Jesus answered, "I told you that I am [He;] so if you seek Me, let these go their way," 9 to fulfill the word which He spoke, "Of those whom You have given Me I lost not one." 10 Simon Peter then, having a sword, drew it and struck the high priest's slave, and cut off his right ear; and the slave's name was Malchus. 11 So Jesus said to Peter, "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, shall I not drink it?"

  • Matthew 20:22-23 [NASB] 22 But Jesus answered, "You do not know what you are asking. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink?" They said to Him, "We are able." 23 He said to them, "My cup you shall drink; but to sit on My right and on [My] left, this is not Mine to give, but it is for those for whom it has been prepared by My Father."
  • Matthew 26:26-29 [NASB] 26 While they were eating, Jesus took [some] bread, and after a blessing, He broke [it] and gave [it] to the disciples, and said, "Take, eat; this is My body." 27 And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave [it] to them, saying, "Drink from it, all of you; 28 for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins. 29 "But I say to you, I will not drink of this fruit of the vine from now on until that day when I drink it new with you in My Father's kingdom."
  • Matthew 26:36-46 [NASB] 36 Then Jesus came with them to a place called Gethsemane, and said to His disciples, "Sit here while I go over there and pray." 37 And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and began to be grieved and distressed. 38 Then He said to them, "My soul is deeply grieved, to the point of death; remain here and keep watch with Me." 39 And He went a little beyond [them,] and fell on His face and prayed, saying, "My Father, if it is possible, let this cup pass from Me; yet not as I will, but as You will." 40 And He came to the disciples and found them sleeping, and said to Peter, "So, you [men] could not keep watch with Me for one hour? 41 "Keep watching and praying that you may not enter into temptation; the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak." 42 He went away again a second time and prayed, saying, "My Father, if this cannot pass away unless I drink it, Your will be done." 43 Again He came and found them sleeping, for their eyes were heavy. 44 And He left them again, and went away and prayed a third time, saying the same thing once more. 45 Then He came to the disciples and said to them, "Are you still sleeping and resting? Behold, the hour is at hand and the Son of Man is being betrayed into the hands of sinners. 46 "Get up, let us be going; behold, the one who betrays Me is at hand!"
The cup in John 18 is “My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins” … the death by crucifixion that he was about to suffer to redeem us.

To ask about “the Cup” in the OT is too open and general a question. I have not done a comprehensive study of ‘the cup’ in the OT … nor is it something that would particularly interest me to study on a whim.

I have addressed your question as fully as I am able.
I see no particular association with WRATH in the NT, only with his death for our redemption (which is not automatically synonymous with either definition of wrath). Once again, I see Cristus Victor and not GOD punishing GOD.
You've still not answered. What does it mean in OT Scriptures, drinking the cup of God?


In addition, you've still failed to show what God's wrath entails, and have relegated it to only coming to pass "in the day of wrath."


This shows you do not understand what God's wrath means.
 
Good grief man, I asked you to give me a moment to go and read the question and verse!
You've had ample time to do so, I've given you numerous times to do so in spite of @Carbon giving your response a like.

I'm still waiting.
 
You've still not answered. What does it mean in OT Scriptures, drinking the cup of God?

"Drinking" AND "the" AND "cup" AND "of" AND "God"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NASB95.

"Drinking" AND "the" AND "cup" AND "of" AND "God"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the KJV.

"Drinking" AND "the" AND "cup" AND "of" AND "God"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NLT.

"Drinking" AND "the" AND "cup" AND "of" AND "God"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the NIV.

"Drinking" AND "the" AND "cup" AND "of" AND "God"
occurs 0 time in 0 verse in the ESV.


It seems to be a trick question. (n)
If post #27 does not answer your question, then I cannot answer it.
 
That Christ SUFFERED for our sins, I offer no argument.
That Christ BORE our sins, I offer no argument.
However, in Isaiah 53:1-12, where does it speak of God's WRATH?

1 Who has believed our message?​
To whom has the LORD revealed his powerful arm?​
2 My servant grew up in the LORD’s presence like a tender green shoot,​
like a root in dry ground.​
There was nothing beautiful or majestic about his appearance,​
nothing to attract us to him.​
3 He was despised and rejected—​
a man of sorrows, acquainted with deepest grief.​
We turned our backs on him and looked the other way.​
He was despised, and we did not care.​

4 Yet it was our weaknesses he carried;​
it was our sorrows that weighed him down.​
And we thought his troubles were a punishment from God,​
a punishment for his own sins!​
5 But he was pierced for our rebellion,​
crushed for our sins.​
He was beaten so we could be whole.​
He was whipped so we could be healed.​
6 All of us, like sheep, have strayed away.​
We have left God’s paths to follow our own.​
Yet the LORD laid on him​
the sins of us all.​

7 He was oppressed and treated harshly,​
yet he never said a word.​
He was led like a lamb to the slaughter.​
And as a sheep is silent before the shearers,​
he did not open his mouth.​
8 Unjustly condemned,​
he was led away.​
No one cared that he died without descendants,​
that his life was cut short in midstream.​
But he was struck down​
for the rebellion of my people.​
9 He had done no wrong​
and had never deceived anyone.​
But he was buried like a criminal;​
he was put in a rich man’s grave.​

10 But it was the LORD’s good plan to crush him​
and cause him grief.​
Yet when his life is made an offering for sin,​
he will have many descendants.​
He will enjoy a long life,​
and the LORD’s good plan will prosper in his hands.​
11 When he sees all that is accomplished by his anguish,​
he will be satisfied.​
And because of his experience,​
my righteous servant will make it possible​
for many to be counted righteous,​
for he will bear all their sins.​
12 I will give him the honors of a victorious soldier,​
because he exposed himself to death.​
He was counted among the rebels.​
He bore the sins of many and interceded for rebels.​

How do we get from Christus Victor to God's Wrath on His Son?
How is that not a violation of God's Law/Justice:

Ezekiel 18:1-4, 19-23 [NLT]
1 Then another message came to me from the LORD: 2 "Why do you quote this proverb concerning the land of Israel: 'The parents have eaten sour grapes, but their children's mouths pucker at the taste'? 3 As surely as I live, says the Sovereign LORD, you will not quote this proverb anymore in Israel. 4 For all people are mine to judge--both parents and children alike. And this is my rule: The person who sins is the one who will die. ...​
19 "'What?' you ask. 'Doesn't the child pay for the parent's sins?' No! For if the child does what is just and right and keeps my decrees, that child will surely live. 20 The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness. 21 But if wicked people turn away from all their sins and begin to obey my decrees and do what is just and right, they will surely live and not die. 22 All their past sins will be forgotten, and they will live because of the righteous things they have done. 23 "Do you think that I like to see wicked people die? says the Sovereign LORD. Of course not! I want them to turn from their wicked ways and live.​
[LOTS more good stuff in Ezekiel 18.]​
First, the reason why propitiation is necessary is that sin arouses the wrath of God. This does not mean (as animists fear) that he is likely to fly off the handle at the most trivial provocation, still less that he loses his temper for no apparent reason at all. For there is nothing capricious or arbitrary about the holy God. Nor is ever irascible, malicious, spiteful, or vindictive. His anger is neither mysterious nor irrational. It is never unpredictable, but always predictable, because it is provoked by evil, and evil alone. The wrath of God, is steady, unrelenting, unremitting, uncompromising antagonism to evil in all its forms and manifestations.

Romans 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men...

Which leads what separates sinners from God, which is sin! And God's Holiness, Justice and Wrath separates him from us. This sinful condition of rebellion against God, is sin. God's holy character and justice cannot go unanswered. Sinners will face God's justice and punishment on judgement day. Scripture is clear and precise on this point.

But reading Paul's epistle to the Romans 1-3, Paul explicitly demonstrates God's displeasure and wrath against all sin, in all its forms. But comes to marvelous good news, that God puts forward Christ as a propitiation.
Romans 3:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood...

The Atonement expiates our sins, but also propitiates God's wrath, in turn reconciliates us to God, by the God-Man's blood.

So, Christ came willing came to do his Father's will, he bore our sins, suffered what we should have suffered, was pierced, afflicted, smitten, stricken, humiliated, scourge, flogged, hair pulled out in clumps, wore a crown of horns, and it was the Father's will to crush him.

Matt. 27:26 ...and having scourged Jesus, delivered him to be crucified.

Now, I'll ask you, if death was the only thing needed for us to be redeemed. Why did Christ have to go through all this punishment? Why did he have to be made sin? Why did he have to be buried with the transgressors? And why was it the Father's will to crush him?

Thanks for the post, we can all grow from this crucial topic.
 
Now, I'll ask you, if death was the only thing needed for us to be redeemed.
I do not believe that it was, or Jesus would have died a different death. We have only HINTS at "why":
  • Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" - Galatians 3:13 [NASB]
... but we know His suffering and death went beyond merely hanging on a tree.

Why did Christ have to go through all this punishment?
Once we enter into speculations, it is only prudent to acknowledge that we are no longer engaging in EXEGESIS but that it IS our speculations, only. So my speculation:
  • Jesus had to go through it for the complete injustice of it all. That one who harmed no one and did no wrong should suffer both unjust ridicule and abuse AND not one, but TWO of the most horrific tortures known (scourging and crucifixion) ... at the hands of evil, guilty men no less, was an ultimate act of injustice.
  • When a parent that has just buried a dead child SCREAMS out to GOD "IT IS UNFAIR, THIS IS NOT RIGHT" ... their Savior, Jesus Christ, can wrap his arms around them and hold them tight in his STILL nail scarred hands and honestly say "I know exactly how you feel, but God is good."
  • For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as [we are, yet] without sin. - Hebrews 4:15 [NASB]

Why did he have to be made sin?
Jesus didn't HAVE TO; Jesus CHOSE TO.
  • "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father." -John 10:17-18 [NASB]
  • "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." - Luke 22:42 [NASB]
  • "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, am I not to drink it?" - John 18:11 [NASB]

Why did he have to be buried with the transgressors?
To fulfill prophecy:
  • "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: 'AND HE WAS COUNTED WITH WRONGDOERS'; for that which refers to Me has [its] fulfillment." - Luke 22:37 [NASB]
Technically, where else COULD they have buried Him? Where do we bury all of the SINLESS people? ;)


And why was it the Father's will to crush him?
Sorry, I try not to touch WHY God does the things that God does. I do have a PHILOSOPHICAL argument to share on that subject:
  • God is the FIRST CAUSE - the UN-CAUSED CAUSE - and as such, NOTHING can influence God outside of God (or that outside THING would be another FIRST CAUSE, creating DUALISM). Therefore anything and everything that God does is "motivated" by the will of God. God DOES because God WILLS/DESIRES to do ... with no other reason possible.
 
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I do not believe that it was, or Jesus would have died a different death. We have only HINTS at "why":
  • Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us--for it is written: "CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO HANGS ON A TREE" - Galatians 3:13 [NASB]
... but we know His suffering and death went beyond merely hanging on a tree.
Thank you bringing the curse of the Law. What is the curse of the Law? Can you define this for me?
Once we enter into speculations, it is only prudent to acknowledge that we are no longer engaging in EXEGESIS but that it IS our speculations, only. So my speculation:
  • Jesus had to go through it for the complete injustice of it all. That one who harmed no one and did no wrong should suffer both unjust ridicule and abuse AND not one, but TWO of the most horrific tortures known (scourging and crucifixion) ... at the hands of evil, guilty men no less, was an ultimate act of injustice.
  • When a parent that has just buried a dead child SCREAMS out to GOD "IT IS UNFAIR, THIS IS NOT RIGHT" ... their Savior, Jesus Christ, can wrap his arms around them and hold them tight in his STILL nail scarred hands and honestly say "I know exactly how you feel, but God is good."
  • For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things just as [we are, yet] without sin. - Hebrews 4:15 [NASB]
Pollard, this is not speculation, just because the word "wrath on Jesus from the Father" is not written in those exact words doesn't negate the teaching that is taught in Scripture. If you are going to follow this line of reasoning, then the Trinity should be discarded, right? Show me in Scripture where the exact word "Trinity" is found? So, this argument doesn't hold water. As I have pointed out in Isaiah 53, it was the will of the Father to crush him, for our iniquities; he bore our sins, he endured all that suffering. Below is a definition of suffering; which states undergoing PAIN, this is punishment, Pollard, no matter how you try to deny it. And my advice to you is, do some homework on what Christ actually endured. You'll be in shock, he was beaten so badly, that he was disfigured. The movie Passion of the Christ, is the PG version. I think it's important for every believer to do so, because this will put it into perspective what Christ suffered in our place.​

suf·fer·ing
[ˈsəf(ə)riNG]

NOUN
1)the state of undergoing pain, distress, or hardship:

To try to explain away that suffering and punishment are two separate things is trying to split hairs.​


Jesus didn't HAVE TO; Jesus CHOSE TO.
  • "For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it back. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it back. This commandment I received from My Father." -John 10:17-18 [NASB]
  • "Father, if You are willing, remove this cup from Me; yet not My will, but Yours be done." - Luke 22:42 [NASB]
  • "Put the sword into the sheath; the cup which the Father has given Me, am I not to drink it?" - John 18:11 [NASB]
I agree, exactly Christ came willingly not against his will. He and his Father were both in agreement, and this was the predetermined plan of God. In the Reformed Faith we called this the Covenant of Redemption. The Son willingly laid down his life for the sheep, saving them from their sins, ransoming them with his blood, whom God put forward as a propitiation.

Now, in defining the term propitiation, we have to define it, of course, according to the biblical text and what the biblical text teaches us about this word and how it's applied. And so, the word propitiation simply put means "satisfaction." It means that Christ, in His perfect life and atoning, substitutionary death, that He satisfied the wrath of God against our sin and against us. It wasn't that He simply satisfied or assuaged God's wrath against sin; He assuaged God's wrath against us. You know, people want to say, "Well, God loves the sinner, but He hates the sin." Well, I understand what people mean by that, but we have to understand it's not just sin that God sends to hell; He sends people to hell.

Now, propitiation is a word that we don't use very often anymore in our common vernacular, but it's a very, very important word. As I said, it is really one of the most important theological words that we learn. And it's one that we should teach our children. We come across it first in the translation before me in Romans 3, where Paul writes: "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by His blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins" (vv. 23-26). And then in Hebrews 2:17 we read, "Therefore he had to be made""that is, Jesus Christ had to be made""like his brothers in every respect, so that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in the service of God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people." And then we come across this word propitiation in 1 John 2, and here it is where people really raise their eyebrows and question what the word means. John writes that, Jesus Christ, "he is the propitiation for our sins" (v. 2). Now that much we know. Paul's taught us that; the author of Hebrews has taught us that; John 4 says the same thing, that He is the propitiation for our sins.

To fulfill prophecy:
  • "For I tell you that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me: 'AND HE WAS COUNTED WITH WRONGDOERS'; for that which refers to Me has [its] fulfillment." - Luke 22:37 [NASB]
Technically, where else COULD they have buried Him? Where do we bury all of the SINLESS people? ;)
Not technically, was a prophecy from Isaiah 53.
Sorry, I try not to touch WHY God does the things that God does. I do have a PHILOSOPHICAL argument to share on that subject:
  • God is the FIRST CAUSE - the UN-CAUSED CAUSE - and as such, NOTHING can influence God outside of God (or that outside THING would be another FIRST CAUSE, creating DUALISM). Therefore anything and everything that God does is "motivated" by the will of God. God DOES because God WILLS/DESIRES to do ... with no other reason possible.
Fair enough. I'll leave you with this for now.

10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him;
he has put him to grief;
when his soul makes an offering for guilt,
he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days;
the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.
11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied;
by his knowledge shall the righteous one, my servant,
make many to be accounted righteous,
and he shall bear their iniquities.
So, it is the will of the Father to crush him. Ponder upon this a bit, and ask what does this mean? Why was it God's will to crush the Son? Hint, it's an open book test. Second, and more importantly to our discussion here is verse 11. Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see and be satisfied. Who shall be satisfied? God will be because Christ is put forward as a propitiation that satisfies God's wrath.

And so, the word propitiation simply put means "satisfaction." Sorry allow me to add one more thing, that people often get confused. The Atonement has two aspects to it. One it expiates sins of believers, and two it propitiates God's wrath. So expiate is for sinners, propitiate is for God, without these two being fulfilled there is no reconciliation between the two hostile parties.

Romans 1:25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood

Know what you believe and why you believe it.​
 
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Thank you bringing the curse of the Law. What is the curse of the Law? Can you define this for me?
I don't want to be accused of ignoring your question:

Paul brought it up, I just quoted Paul.
I PASS on your offer to pursue "the curse of the Law" ... I just wanted information on where Scripture supports the WRATH of the Father against the Son ... and was rewarded with NONE. Just invitations to play "fetch" with bible verses and tangential topics.
 
I don't want to be accused of ignoring your question:

Paul brought it up, I just quoted Paul.
I PASS on your offer to pursue "the curse of the Law" ... I just wanted information on where Scripture supports the WRATH of the Father against the Son ... and was rewarded with NONE. Just invitations to play "fetch" with bible verses and tangential topics.
Curious, are you saying you don’t agree Christ endured the Father’s wrath in our place? Or you do?
I’m not understanding what you’re saying. 🤔
 
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