Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

 

[CrowCross]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

What is the mark they refused to receive?

 

[Marty]

What is the mark they refused to receive?

They refused to worship Nero Cesar as God and be apart of apostate Rome who called Cesar their king

 

[Rev. Man Ron]

What is the mark they refused to receive?

I think it was a hammer and it hit "somebody" in the head.

 

[CrowCross]

They refused to worship Nero Cesar as God and be apart of apostate Rome who called Cesar their king

You do know that according to Rev 13 the marks is a bit more than worshiping Nero?

 

[Marty]

You do know that according to Rev 13 the marks is a bit more than worshiping Nero?

If it is a physical mark it then violates and contradicts many scriptures of promises of salvation for whoever repents like John 3:16

Let scripture interpret scripture

 

[CrowCross]

If it is a physical mark it then violates and contradicts many scriptures of promises of salvation for whoever repents like John 3:16

Let scripture interpret scripture

That makes no sense.

BTW...did those who worshiped Nero receive the following affliction? 2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

 

[Josheb]

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Not only this, but Paul also stated they've been held in bonds of darkness specifically for the day of judgment.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Already happened; not something yet to occur.

When Jesus speaks of the carrion eater roaming the earth for those he might devour that occurs in the context of his already being held in bandage for his already decided end. When Jesus speaks to and commands the legion of demands from one man into a herd of pigs that occurs in the context of every single on of those demons who hadn't kept their proper abode being held in the bondage of darkness await their judgement. When Paul writes about the "ruler of the air" it occurs in that context. The same things applies when John wrote about "the ruler of this world." The exact same condition exists when Revelation 20 speaks of satan being prevented from deceiving the nations for a thousand years. He was already bound before he was bound.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment...

They were cast into hell and committed to pits of darkness awaiting judgment when the sinned.

 

[Marty]

Not only this, but Paul also stated they've been held in bonds of darkness specifically for the day of judgment.

Jude 1:6-7
And angels who did not keep their own domain, but abandoned their proper abode, He has kept in eternal bonds under darkness for the judgment of the great day, just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the cities around them, since they in the same way as these indulged in gross immorality and went after strange flesh, are exhibited as an example in undergoing the punishment of eternal fire.

Already happened; not something yet to occur.

When Jesus speaks of the carrion eater roaming the earth for those he might devour that occurs in the context of his already being held in bandage for his already decided end. When Jesus speaks to and commands the legion of demands from one man into a herd of pigs that occurs in the context of every single on of those demons who hadn't kept their proper abode being held in the bondage of darkness await their judgement. When Paul writes about the "ruler of the air" it occurs in that context. The same things applies when John wrote about "the ruler of this world." The exact same condition exists when Revelation 20 speaks of satan being prevented from deceiving the nations for a thousand years. He was already bound before he was bound.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to pits of darkness, reserved for judgment...

They were cast into hell and committed to pits of darkness awaiting judgment when the sinned.

Yes amen great post

 

[Marty]

That makes no sense.

BTW...did those who worshiped Nero receive the following affliction? 2 So the first angel went and poured out his bowl on the earth, and harmful and painful sores came upon the people who bore the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.

Sure it does if verses like John 3:16 promise salvation to those who repents and revelation says that whoever has the mark will perish then John 3:16 can't stand as the bible can't contradict itself.

Yes the they are symbolic for the judgement on Rome and apostate Israel

 

[Wordsmith]

Sure it does if verses like John 3:16 promise salvation to those who repents and revelation says that whoever has the mark will perish then John 3:16 can't stand as the bible can't contradict itself.

Yes the they are symbolic for the judgement on Rome and apostate Israel

There is no contradiction in these scriptures. You assume that at least some of those who WILLFULLY took the mark may say oops I messed up I should repent now. That will not be the case they have sold out to the beast and worship him. They have rejected the salvation offered by Christ and have been turned over to a reprobate mind. Both scriptures are true and the beast and mark have not yet happened.

 

[Marty]

There is no contradiction in these scriptures. You assume that at least some of those who WILLFULLY took the mark may say oops I messed up I should repent now. That will not be the case they have sold out to the beast and worship him. They have rejected the salvation offered by Christ and have been turned over to a reprobate mind. Both scriptures are true and the beast and mark have not yet happened.

Thats not what I’m saying I’m not disputing if they will or not I’m disputing can they or not?

I believe that they can’t and that would mean according to John 3:16 that it can’t be a literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to the beast

 

[TibiasDad]

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Faith speaks of future reality in the present tense.

Doug

 

[EarlyActs]

They refused to worship Nero Cesar as God and be apart of apostate Rome who called Cesar their king

yes

 

[Eleanor]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's on the resurrection day. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.
Here below are the three texts.
Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.
Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.
Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.
Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.
All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

I think you've just demonstrated that Rev 20:4 is figurative of the church age.

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

 

[Rella]

If it is a physical mark it then violates and contradicts many scriptures of promises of salvation for whoever repents like John 3:16

Let scripture interpret scripture

Alright

If scripture is interpreting scripture, what would this mark be?

NASB95
Rev 13:17 and he decrees that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

and for KJV only diehards.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

​

 

[Rella]

Thats not what I’m saying I’m not disputing if they will or not I’m disputing can they or not?

I believe that they can’t and that would mean according to John 3:16 that it can’t be a literal mark but a constant unrepentant devotion to the beast

Why not both?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Kudos to you for recognizing that this verse about the saints being made to "reign in life by one Christ Jesus" is connected to the millennial period. But the OT saints who looked forward in time to the promised Messiah as their coming deliverer were also able to "reign in life" in the same manner during their lifetime.

God has always reigned over His creation from the beginning of Creation forward. That reign has been manifested in different ways throughout the ages. The literal millennial period of Satan's deception being bound was focused on a particular segment of that everlasting reign. This thousand-year limitation was on Satan's deception - not on Christ Jesus having a reign that would only last a thousand years. Christ's kingdom is a forever thing.

They refused to worship Nero Cesar as God and be apart of apostate Rome who called Cesar their king

Sort of, but not exactly. The mark was related to the Roman Sea Beast, but it was a literal mark created by the Judean Land Beast and imposed on everybody worshipping in the temple; a mark which gave homage to the Roman Sea Beast with whom the Judean Land Beast was in collaboratiom. "We have no king but Caesar" was the sign that the Judean Land Beast religious leadership was in league with their pagan Roman overlords, and were willing to pander to them in order to preserve "their place and their nation", as Caiaphas once said.

That "mark" was the abominable Tyrian shekel minted in Jerusalem with its forbidden-by-God image of Rome's pagan demi-god Herakles, and abominable inscriptions giving honor to the idol-worshipping city of Tyre and the power of the Romans. The high priesthood required this abominable, forbidden Tyrian shekel to be used by everyone coming to the temple needing to buy or sell sacrificial items for worship. They had to exchange their own foreign currency for this Tyrian shekel for an obnoxious fee, which was collected by the moneychangers - the agents of the corrupt high priesthood. This "mark" was imposed on everyone coming to the temple from 19 BC until AD 66 when the Zealot uprising stopped requiring that Tyrian shekel, and started minting their own currency inscribed with "for the redemption of Zion".

Anyone who was handed this Tyrian shekel in exchange for their own coins was reminded once again of who was holding the reigns of power over their nation. "They had no rest day nor night" with this irritating reminder that their own high priesthood was forcing them to give homage to the pagan Romans via this Tyrian shekel that God had given strict commandments against back in Deuteronomy 7:24-26.

 

[Marty]

Alright

If scripture is interpreting scripture, what would this mark be?

NASB95
Rev 13:17 and he decrees that no one will be able to buy or to sell, except the one who has the mark, either the name of the beast or the number of his name.

and for KJV only diehards.

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

​

Now before I answer this ask yourself does a literal mark violate these verses below?

Romans 10:13
for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."


Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved


John 3:16
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life


1John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

If anyone had the mark would these verses apply to them? After all none of these verses state unless they have the mark.

You see Jesus death and resurrection is powerful enough to cover all sin. Jesus said that the only unforgivable sin is blasphemy of the Holy Spirit which is the constant rejection of the Holy Spirit thus the symbolic mark of satan and the beast so it’s on us not God

 

[Marty]

Why not both?

See post #19