Paul claimed 3 times that Rev 20:4 was a current reality.

[Marty]

Revelation 20:4
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

This is one of the most controversial verses in the entire bible and a lot of Christians believe that it has to be a future event because they believe that it's at the second coming. But according to Paul he stated three times that it was a current reality back in his day.

Here below are the three texts.

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

All of these verses were a current reality while alive in the physical body almost two thousand years ago. If it was a reality back, then it is still a reality today.

Paul ties three events directly to Revelation 20:4 "that we have been made alive", "seated with Christ in the heavenly realms" and that "we reign (in life) through Jesus".

Why do so many Christians not accept this even though Paul declares it? Because they are focused on it being physical not spiritual. They focus on the physical because it mentions saints that were beheaded by the beast and the thousand years.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture. Paul I believe teaches that its spiritual and what John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body. It's a promise even though you may die for Jesus you will still live and reign spiritually. The beast can kill the body but not the soul.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

 

[Josheb]

Paul Claimed 3 Times that Rev. 20:4 was a current reality.

Good op. Let's not forget that is exactly the way the psalmist had stated it would be.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

The Lord sits at his LORD's right hand on his LORD's throne until the LORD makes all the Lord's enemies a footstool.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

Well.... Can we say we've been in a position to reign but have done a very poor job of it?

If Christians actually acted like we actually believed what was say we believe the world would look a lot less like someone else was in charge. Blaming Satan is a poor excuse for not accepting responsibility and not being faithful. Revelation uses the word "overcomes" 12 times and eleven of those twelve are directives to the body of Christ to overcome. What do you suppose happens to someone who is supposed to reign with Jesus but does not overcome?

 

[3 Resurrections]

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan

The literal thousand-year time limitation was put upon Satan's deception of the nations - not a time limitation put upon Christ's reign, which is a perpetual one.

Any children of God throughout history since creation have "reigned in life" positionally by God considering them to be "in Christ". This applies to the saints before, during, and after Christ's earthly ministry until the final judgment.

 

[Marty]

Good op. Let's not forget that is exactly the way the psalmist had stated it would be.

Psalm 110:1
The LORD says to my Lord: “Sit at My right hand Until I make Your enemies a footstool for Your feet.”

The Lord sits at his LORD's right hand on his LORD's throne until the LORD makes all the Lord's enemies a footstool.

Well.... Can we say we've been in a position to reign but have done a very poor job of it?

If Christians actually acted like we actually believed what was say we believe the world would look a lot less like someone else was in charge. Blaming Satan is a poor excuse for not accepting responsibility and not being faithful. Revelation uses the word "overcomes" 12 times and eleven of those twelve are directives to the body of Christ to overcome. What do you suppose happens to someone who is supposed to reign with Jesus but does not overcome?

Tanks I actually have a thread on that which I will post

 

[Ghada]

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,
In the verses above Paul states that we were already made alive, raised up and seated with Christ in the heavenly realms.

Exactly. Nothing about reigning

Colossians 3:1
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is, seated at the right hand of God.

Once again Paul states that we have already been raised up with Christ.

Exactly again. No reigning.

Romans 5:17
17 For if, by the trespass of the one man, death reigned through that one man, how much more will those who receive God’s abundant provision of grace and of the gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man, Jesus Christ!

Finally in the verse above Paul states that we reign in life through Jesus.

False. Righteousness reigns through Christ in our lives.

Nothing about us reigning with Him.

When we propose to teach something from the Bible, that means we have to show the Bible saying what we propose to teach.

When you show any Scripture about Christians reigning today, then you can teach about Christians reigning today.

(However, I warn you that the only Scripture of Christians reigning today, is a warning by Paul against Christians even thinking they are reigning today, much less boasting of it.)

 

[Ghada]

Why do so many Christians not accept this

Because some Christians demand what is taught be from what is accurately said, not just sort of like it.

And the many like you that gladly do accept this sloppy mishandling of Scripture, do so to believe you are now reigning with Christ, so that you can then secure yourself from the second death.

Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

It's just more unconditional security by belief alone, apart from how we live.

John is saying in Revelation 20:4 is that even though the saints are beheaded they still live and reign spiritually the soul doesn't die with the body.

As we see here. An eternally secured salvation and reigning by accepted doctrine alone, with immunity from condemnation for unrighteous works, and from the second death by judgemnt of unrighteous works unto the end.

Once the personal motive is known, then the rest of the skewed puzzle falls into place.

But let's let scripture interpret scripture.

True. Next time try teaching the Scriptures as written, without inserting your personal wishes into them.

Thus, according to Paul we reign in life now and have been for almost two thousand years we are not limited to a literal thousand years God has a better longer plan.

Just another non-millennium pseudo-reigning brag today.

And he that is overcoming, and keeping my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations: And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Only the overcomers unto the end of this life shall reign over nations with the Lord.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

And only at the Lord's return shall He reign over the smitten nations with His resurrected saints.

The Lord Himself isn't yet reigning with rod of iron over the nations today, much less us saints, that aren't even reigning over our own lives anymore...

Jesus didn't rule over nations as a man on earth, and it is certain His servants walking as He walked aren't.

The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master.

 

[Marty]

Exactly. Nothing about reigning



Exactly again. No reigning.

False. Righteousness reigns through Christ in our lives.

Nothing about us reigning with Him.

When we propose to teach something from the Bible, that means we have to show the Bible saying what we propose to teach.

When you show any Scripture about Christians reigning today, then you can teach about Christians reigning today.

(However, I warn you that the only Scripture of Christians reigning today, is a warning by Paul against Christians even thinking they are reigning today, much less boasting of it.)

Seated in heaven is a symbolic position of reigning

 

[Josheb]

Seated in heaven is a symbolic position of reigning

Might be literal, too.

 

[Marty]

Might be literal, too.

But then how could Paul say the verses below when he was alive on the earth?

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

 

[Josheb]

But then how could Paul say the verses below when he was alive on the earth?

Ephesians 2:4-6
4 But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5 made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6 And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus,

Because you and I are bound by time and space but Jesus is not.

Multiple verses in the Bible state the heavens are God's throne and the earth His footstool, but perhaps the verse most salient to your point and subsequent inquiry is Isaiah 66:1.

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

Jesus is the one in whom we find or rest with God. The house, or temple, that God built is His resurrected Son and his body of royally priestly believers. We are very real. Literally

 

[Marty]

Because you and I are bound by time and space but Jesus is not.

Multiple verses in the Bible state the heavens are God's throne and the earth His footstool, but perhaps the verse most salient to your point and subsequent inquiry is Isaiah 66:1.

Isaiah 66:1
This is what the LORD says: “Heaven is My throne and the earth is the footstool for My feet. Where then is a house you could build for Me? And where is a place that I may rest?

Jesus is the one in whom we find or rest with God. The house, or temple, that God built is His resurrected Son and his body of royally priestly believers. We are very real. Literally

Yes but my point was that my verse uses the same words as Rev 20"4

 

[Josheb]

Yes but my point was that my verse uses the same words as Rev 20"4

Yes, and what is my point?

 

[EarlyActs]

The location does not matter; the reign is imperative; it is what is supposed to occur.

 

[Mr GLee]

The literal thousand-year time limitation was put upon Satan's deception of the nations - not a time limitation put upon Christ's reign, which is a perpetual one.

Any children of God throughout history since creation have "reigned in life" positionally by God considering them to be "in Christ". This applies to the saints before, during, and after Christ's earthly ministry until the final judgment.

Yes not time limitation. Thousand a metaphor used in parables to respect a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time Like the parable . . he owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills (he own all)

The signified understanding spoken of in the opening of the book of the parable again signified (Revelation 20) uses the word "thousand" to represent a unknown .

God desires we walk or understand Him by faith (his labor of love working in us ) why literalize the parables. . the signified tongue or called hidden manna our daily bread?

No signs were given to wonder after .Jesus said it's a evil (non redeemed) generation the looks to signs to wonder after .Christian have prophecy sealed till the end of time

Many talk about the Son of mans return as if the Spirit of Christ that worked in Jesus the Son of man asif he was not already here working reigning in the hearts of dying mankind. . to both will and empower us to do it to his good pleasure

Christ never left earth he is still reigning in the hearts dying mankind and will be until the last day under the Sun .Some are looking for a fleshly jesus as some sort of sign . One outward demonstration of dying flesh is all that was promised .

The key in that parable is the kind of deception as you said. . . limited to deceiving all the nation at one moment.

Not that the father of lies has stopped his lying wonders all together. The focus is on all the nations of the whole world as to what they think makes up God ? It was not a sign to the believers. . again they have prophecy until the end

When the veil was rent there was no Jewish Kings of kings, Lord of lords sitting in the abomination the holy of holies temple made with the dying hands of mankind .

Satan could no longer deceive all the kingdoms of men that God is a Jewish man as King of kings . He will be loosed for a short while to again to deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of kings

Note. . . (PURPLE ) metaphors used in the parable

Revelation 20King James Version20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

In that way a person cannot bind the spirit of deception with a literal chain or a literal key (and not the gospel)

Mark 5 :4-6 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Picture of salvation chains loosed the new binding of the gospel key begins

Must be loosed to again deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of kings .

In that way Satan failed using Peter our brother in the lord as if he was God a Jewish King of kings the spirit of deception who rebuked our unseen Holy Father and forbid Jesus the Son of man from doing the will Father, Satan failed and was revealed when the veil was rent (no King of kings sitting) Loud voice but no power to deceive

Below the Holy Father gave words to his prophet Jesus and God rebuked the father of lies.In efect saying; get behind me not seen not dying mankind seen .

A lesson of faith the unseen things of God to all . the warning of the antichrists' another false teaching authority, false apostles teaching oral traditions' of dying mankind (God is a jewish man as KIng of kings )

Satan as lucifer the (false light) goal from the beginning saying. You will not die look at my beauty and live forever, , . . . why believe in a Holy Father not seen as King of kings and lord of lords . . that's silly to believe in things not seen


God in effect says peekaboo I see you .now you don't. The God that hides in parables the signified tongue of life and death

Matthew 16: 22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings . those kingdoms of this s dying world wild become his on the last day under the Sun

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Mr GLee]

The literal thousand-year time limitation was put upon Satan's deception of the nations - not a time limitation put upon Christ's reign, which is a perpetual one.

Any children of God throughout history since creation have "reigned in life" positionally by God considering them to be "in Christ". This applies to the saints before, during, and after Christ's earthly ministry until the final judgment.

The signified understanding of the parable (Revelation 20) uses the word thousand to repent a unknown .No signs were given to wonder after .Jesus said it's a evil (non redeemed) generation the looks to signs to wonder after .We have prophecy sealed till the end of time
Christ never left earth he is still reining and will be until the last day under the Sun .

The key in that parable is the kind of deception limited to deceiving all the nation at one moment. Not that the father of lies has stopped lying altigher the focus is on all the nations of the whole world

When the veil was rent .there was no jewish Kings of kings Lord of lord sitting in the abomination of desolation the holy of what they called holies .Satan could no longer deceive all the kingdom of men that God is a Jewish man as King of kings . He will be loosed for a short while to again deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of kings, Lord of lords

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes not time limitation. Thousand a metaphor used in parables to respect a unknown as to whatsoever is in view to include time Like the parable . . he owns a thousand cattle on a thousand hills (he own all)

The signified understanding spoken of in the opening of the book of the parable again signified (Revelation 20) uses the word "thousand" to represent a unknown .

God desires we walk or understand Him by faith (his labor of love working in us ) why literalize the parables. . the signified tongue or called hidden manna our daily bread?

No signs were given to wonder after .Jesus said it's a evil (non redeemed) generation the looks to signs to wonder after .Christian have prophecy sealed till the end of time

Many talk about the Son of mans return as if the Spirit of Christ that worked in Jesus the Son of man asif he was not already here working reigning in the hearts of dying mankind. . to both will and empower us to do it to his good pleasure

Christ never left earth he is still reigning in the hearts dying mankind and will be until the last day under the Sun .Some are looking for a fleshly jesus as some sort of sign . One outward demonstration of dying flesh is all that was promised .

The key in that parable is the kind of deception as you said. . . limited to deceiving all the nation at one moment.

Not that the father of lies has stopped his lying wonders all together. The focus is on all the nations of the whole world as to what they think makes up God ? It was not a sign to the believers. . again they have prophecy until the end

When the veil was rent there was no Jewish Kings of kings, Lord of lords sitting in the abomination the holy of holies temple made with the dying hands of mankind .

Satan could no longer deceive all the kingdoms of men that God is a Jewish man as King of kings . He will be loosed for a short while to again to deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of kings

Note. . . (PURPLE ) metaphors used in the parable

Revelation 20King James Version20 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.

In that way a person cannot bind the spirit of deception with a literal chain or a literal key (and not the gospel)

Mark 5 :4-6 Because that he had been often bound with fetters and chains, and the chains had been plucked asunder by him, and the fetters broken in pieces: neither could any man tame him.And always, night and day, he was in the mountains, and in the tombs, crying, and cutting himself with stones. But when he saw Jesus afar off, he ran and worshipped him,

Picture of salvation chains loosed the new binding of the gospel key begins

Must be loosed to again deceive all the nations God is a Jewish man as King of kings .

In that way Satan failed using Peter our brother in the lord as if he was God a Jewish King of kings the spirit of deception who rebuked our unseen Holy Father and forbid Jesus the Son of man from doing the will Father, Satan failed and was revealed when the veil was rent (no King of kings sitting) Loud voice but no power to deceive

Below the Holy Father gave words to his prophet Jesus and God rebuked the father of lies.In efect saying; get behind me not seen not dying mankind seen .

A lesson of faith the unseen things of God to all . the warning of the antichrists' another false teaching authority, false apostles teaching oral traditions' of dying mankind (God is a jewish man as KIng of kings )

Satan as lucifer the (false light) goal from the beginning saying. You will not die look at my beauty and live forever, , . . . why believe in a Holy Father not seen as King of kings and lord of lords . . that's silly to believe in things not seen


God in effect says peekaboo I see you .now you don't. The God that hides in parables the signified tongue of life and death

Matthew 16: 22-23 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee. But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.

God is not a Jewish man as King of kings . those kingdoms of this s dying world wild become his on the last day under the Sun

Revelation 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

MrG,
the best way to converse is to only put at 2-3 thoughts at a time. Have someone proofread. Forget the color stuff. You might try italics for emphasis at times.

 

[Josheb]

The location does not matter; the reign is imperative; it is what is supposed to occur.

It does matter.

We have a lot of Christians waiting around for Jesus to physically come down to earth and reign instead of acting like he reigns everywhere no matter where he's at physically. Not only is that what they do, they teach others to do the same.

 

[Mr GLee]

It does matter.

We have a lot of Christians waiting around for Jesus to physically come down to earth and reign instead of acting like he reigns everywhere no matter where he's at physically. Not only is that what they do, they teach others to do the same.

Did you mean where he is spiritually?

 

[Josheb]

Did you mean where he is spiritually?

No. Sorta.

The question itself is flawed, imo. Matter and energy are simply variations on a common condition. For us - finite creatures of flesh and spirit living in finite time and space - there are distinctions that do not exist for the infinite Creator. For us, we cannot physically be in more than one place at one time but that's not the case with the Creator. It's nonsensical to place the temporal on the eternal - and I would argue that is the case even during the incarnation when the logos of God who is God entered creation and was made flesh. Having returned to where he came from is often misguided understood to be heaven but, as I believe I have already pointed out, heaven is (merely) his throne. Properly understood Jesus returned to eternity and, as such, he transcends time and space. He is, therefore, both physically and spiritual always everywhere at once.

 

[Mr GLee]

No. Sorta.

The question itself is flawed, imo. Matter and energy are simply variations on a common condition. For us - finite creatures of flesh and spirit living in finite time and space - there are distinctions that do not exist for the infinite Creator. For us, we cannot physically be in more than one place at one time but that's not the case with the Creator. It's nonsensical to place the temporal on the eternal - and I would argue that is the case even during the incarnation when the logos of God who is God entered creation and was made flesh. Having returned to where he came from is often misguided understood to be heaven but, as I believe I have already pointed out, heaven is (merely) his throne. Properly understood Jesus returned to eternity and, as such, he transcends time and space. He is, therefore, both physically and spiritual always everywhere at once.

If we could know Christ the anointing Holy Spirit our infalible teacher after the corrupted rudiments of this dying world , after the oral traditions, as vain philosophies of men. Then we could search for him through a microscope or telescope

Remember as new creatures all things are new .What we will be is not revealed

Colossians 2:8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Let there be flesh (dust) and it was good