Parable of the growing seed

[EarlyActs]

Yes, the rulership, (kingdom as promised) would be taken from that nation, (when Jesus was on earth) and given to the nation of Israel looking for their Messiah and finally receiving Him. (Mal. 3: 16 & 17, Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

The B/C is NOT `a nation,` but called out of all the nations. (Matt. 21: 43)

Rom. 11: 11 - 14. Israel was cast away for a time, (Rom. 11: 1) but God in His mercy will restore them as a nation. Meanwhile they having been cast aside (for a time) gave room for us Gentiles to come into Christ.

Mt 21 is saying it is a 'nation' though, an ethne. And the NT does not operate in race-nation categories, as you can see clearly in Rom 11. It is about faith-based vs refusing. Always has been. It was Judaism's attachment to its race (we have Abraham as our father) that caused confusion and conflict.

Jews can believe now as always. There are no time periods for race-nations.

 

[Marilyn C]

Mt 21 is saying it is a 'nation' though, an ethne. And the NT does not operate in race-nation categories, as you can see clearly in Rom 11. It is about faith-based vs refusing. Always has been. It was Judaism's attachment to its race (we have Abraham as our father) that caused confusion and conflict.

Jews can believe now as always. There are no time periods for race-nations.

I agree about `faith` based. However, God made the nation of Israel, He worked with them (& still does) for centuries and He will turn them as a nation to Himself after the trib. (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

 

[Agra Man]

Jesus came to confirm the promises of the Fathers to Israel.

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.` (Rom. 15: 8)

Thus, it is not for us to make the Lord`s confirmation to Israel as about US.

It is about us it says it plain and simple it is about the kingdom we are just the planters he is the one that makes it flourish

 

[EarlyActs]

I agree about `faith` based. However, God made the nation of Israel, He worked with them (& still does) for centuries and He will turn them as a nation to Himself after the trib. (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

I would have to see a NT quotation of the OT saying so to believe it. When the NT quotes Zech 12, what does it refer to?

I'm not aware of any place where the apostles saw God 'turning back to the nation.' All NT descriptions in ordinary language of the end, the final day of judgement, are that it is quick, non-Judaic in features, and immediately results in the NHNE. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, Thess (the incident at the temple was explained by Christ as being in that generation). They all expected the final day right after the destruction of Israel, but God has delayed, as we see.

Jesus came to confirm the promises of the Fathers to Israel.

`Now I say that Jesus Christ has become a servant to the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made to the fathers.` (Rom. 15: 8)

Thus, it is not for us to make the Lord`s confirmation to Israel as about US.

If you read just one additional line in Rom 15, Marilyn, you will see that that is not true. But first, don't divide Israel from the church; it always was that. And there has always been an outer community that was not faith-based but was just along for the ride. The inner was the remnant.

The verses after 8 are a list of what he meant: that the blessing to the father always was for the nations and has come in Christ.

I believe you are operating in a 2 program-2 peoples system, and that I can show you it is foreign to the NT.

 

[Agra Man]

I would have to see a NT quotation of the OT saying so to believe it. When the NT quotes Zech 12, what does it refer to?

I'm not aware of any place where the apostles saw God 'turning back to the nation.' All NT descriptions in ordinary language of the end, the final day of judgement, are that it is quick, non-Judaic in features, and immediately results in the NHNE. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, Thess (the incident at the temple was explained by Christ as being in that generation). They all expected the final day right after the destruction of Israel, but God has delayed, as we see.


If you read just one additional line in Rom 15, Marilyn, you will see that that is not true. But first, don't divide Israel from the church; it always was that. And there has always been an outer community that was not faith-based but was just along for the ride. The inner was the remnant.

The verses after 8 are a list of what he meant: that the blessing to the father always was for the nations and has come in Christ.

I believe you are operating in a 2 program-2 peoples system, and that I can show you it is foreign to the NT.

Do you know the importance of the day Israel became a nation again?

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you know the importance of the day Israel became a nation again?

It was the day of the Gospel; all the promises to the fathers are fulfilled in the resurrection, Acts 13 (prob the most complete statement of the history and destiny of Israel in the NT; they were to be missionaries of that Gospel to the nations).

 

[EarlyActs]

Do you know the importance of the day Israel became a nation again?

All of the prophets included 3 features when the restoration would come: 1, the restoration of spiritual activity of course; 2, the pouring out of the Spirit; 3, the mission to the nations.

That is what Pentecost's miracle of languages heard was, but it was refused by Israel mostly, with a very severe warning in Acts 3:23 of 'humiliating disinheritance.' The new Moses came and was to be followed.

 

[Agra Man]

It was the day of the Gospel; all the promises to the fathers are fulfilled in the resurrection, Acts 13 (prob the most complete statement of the history and destiny of Israel in the NT; they were to be missionaries of that Gospel to the nations).

does 1948 ring a bell?

 

[EarlyActs]

I agree about `faith` based. However, God made the nation of Israel, He worked with them (& still does) for centuries and He will turn them as a nation to Himself after the trib. (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

In Zech 12, v10 is the first quoted by the NT. It is clearly about the Gospel and Pentecost coming. And yes those listening to Peter in Acts 2 did weep, and by the time the message was initially launched, 5000 men were believers. No small chunk.

As for the battle previous in the chapter, it is one of many ways of describing the final day of judgement, but of course there is the Jerusalem above of Gal 4 and the Rev and Heb 12 to remember. Otherwise you have visions bouncing back and forth in conflict.

 

[Marilyn C]

I would have to see a NT quotation of the OT saying so to believe it. When the NT quotes Zech 12, what does it refer to?

I'm not aware of any place where the apostles saw God 'turning back to the nation.' All NT descriptions in ordinary language of the end, the final day of judgement, are that it is quick, non-Judaic in features, and immediately results in the NHNE. Rom 2, 8, I Cor 15, Heb 9, 2 Pet 3, Thess (the incident at the temple was explained by Christ as being in that generation). They all expected the final day right after the destruction of Israel, but God has delayed, as we see.


If you read just one additional line in Rom 15, Marilyn, you will see that that is not true. But first, don't divide Israel from the church; it always was that. And there has always been an outer community that was not faith-based but was just along for the ride. The inner was the remnant.

The verses after 8 are a list of what he meant: that the blessing to the father always was for the nations and has come in Christ.

I believe you are operating in a 2 program-2 peoples system, and that I can show you it is foreign to the NT.

Remember the disciples were concerned about when Jesus would bring in Israel as the ruler over the nations -

`Lord, will you at this time RESTORE the kingdom (rule) to Israel? ` (Acts 1: 6)

Jesus was their Messiah and King and the disciples were asking about when their nation, Israel would be RESTORED as ruler.

Rom. 15: 9 yes, refers to the Lord having mercy on the Gentile as well. That occurred when Jesus was on earth and is still occurring. That does not negate God`s purpose for the nation of Israel. The disciples knew the PROMISES OF THE FATHERS concerning their nation, that is why they asked the Lord when would He RESTORE the rulership to Israel.

God has purposes for 3 groups - The Body of Christ, Israel and the nations. God didn`t make Israel and the nations to discard them but to be glorifies among them when He raises them up for His purposes.

 

[Marilyn C]

In Zech 12, v10 is the first quoted by the NT. It is clearly about the Gospel and Pentecost coming. And yes those listening to Peter in Acts 2 did weep, and by the time the message was initially launched, 5000 men were believers. No small chunk.

As for the battle previous in the chapter, it is one of many ways of describing the final day of judgement, but of course there is the Jerusalem above of Gal 4 and the Rev and Heb 12 to remember. Otherwise you have visions bouncing back and forth in conflict.

`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.

It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

AND I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; THEN they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will MOURN for Him as one MOURNS for his only son, and GRIEVE for him as one GRIEVES for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

`In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. AND the land shall mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves, the family of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves, the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shemei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that REMAIN every family by itself, and the wives by themselves. (Zech. 12: 11 - 14)

 

[Agra Man]

`The Lord will save the tents of Judah first, so that the glory of the house of David and the glory of the inhabitants of Jerusalem shall not become greater than that of Judah.

In that day the Lord will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem; the one who is feeble among them in that day shall be like David, and the house of David shall be like God, like the Angel of the Lord before them.

It shall be in that day that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

AND I will pour on the house of David and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem the Spirit of grace and supplication; THEN they will look on me whom they have pierced; they will MOURN for Him as one MOURNS for his only son, and GRIEVE for him as one GRIEVES for a first-born.` (Zech. 12: 7 - 10)

`In that day there shall be a great mourning in Jerusalem, like the mourning at Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo. AND the land shall mourn, every family by itself; the family of the house of David by itself, and their wives by themselves, the family of Nathan by itself, and their wives by themselves, the family of the house of Levi by itself, and their wives by themselves; the family of Shemei by itself, and their wives by themselves; all the families that REMAIN every family by itself, and the wives by themselves. (Zech. 12: 11 - 14)

It is often said if you want to know where we are in bible prophecy look to Israel. Israel has always been the apple of his eye even in all their rebellion and the fact he warns of what comes with going against Israel and what comes with blessing it along with the fact that his kingdom and court is so deeply tied with Jerusalem it is no wonder that Israel is one of the main key players in all of this.

 

[Eleanor]

It is often said if you want to know where we are in bible prophecy look to Israel. Israel has always been the apple of his eye even in all their rebellion and the fact he warns of what comes with going against Israel and what comes with blessing it along with the fact that his kingdom and court is so deeply tied with Jerusalem it is no wonder that Israel is one of the main key players in all of this.

Israel, except for a remnant (Ro 11:1-5), has been cut off the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church (Ro 11:16-23) of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), and she has only one destiny; i.e., is to be grafted back into that one NT olive tree of God's people, the church, IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.
Israel is now on the same footing as Gentiles, salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, by which God is saving a remnant of both Gentiles and Jews in his NT church, the one olive tree of the people of God.

 

[EarlyActs]

Israel, except for a remnant (Ro 11:1-5), has been cut off the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church (Ro 11:16-23) of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), and she has only one destiny; i.e., is to be grafted back into that one NT olive tree of God's people, the church, IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.
Israel is now on the same footing as Gentiles, salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, by which God is saving a remnant of both Gentiles and Jews in his NT church, the one olive tree of the people of God.

Very good summary, as long as you make it retroactive back to the beginning, as the NT does. The NT has several ways of saying this was always the case; that there was not another program running at one time, or that we are coming back to another.

 

[Agra Man]

Israel, except for a remnant (Ro 11:1-5), has been cut off the one olive tree of God's people, the NT church (Ro 11:16-23) of both OT and NT saints (Heb 11:40, 12:22-23), and she has only one destiny; i.e., is to be grafted back into that one NT olive tree of God's people, the church, IF they do not persist in unbelief (Ro 11:23), which they have for 2,000 years now, and counting.
Israel is now on the same footing as Gentiles, salvation is by faith in Jesus Christ, by which God is saving a remnant of both Gentiles and Jews in his NT church, the one olive tree of the people of God.

Yes but don't forget he said he was going to restore Israel and when he does jews gentile Christian Judism none of that will matter anymore we all we will be one people together in Christ.

 

[Eleanor]

Very good summary, as long as you make it retroactive back to the beginning, as the NT does. The NT has several ways of saying this was always the case;

Well, yes, that is assumed, but would you elaborate for me what you mean.

that there was not another program running at one time, or that we are coming back to another.

 

[EarlyActs]

Yes but don't forget he said he was going to restore Israel and when he does jews gentile Christian Judism none of that will matter anymore we all we will be one people together in Christ.

In the prophets, the restoration, the outpouring and the outreach to the nations are all together. That's what Peter was showing by quoting Joel 2 in Acts 2. I do not know a NT passage that details a restored race-nation; I know many that say the living temple now is 'one people together in Christ.'

 

[Eleanor]

Yes but don't forget he said he was going to restore Israel and when he does jews gentile Christian Judism none of that will matter anymore we all we will be one people together in Christ.

If you're referring to prophecy, that was fulfilled in the return from exile (Ezra, Nehemiah), when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was
rebuilt, and there was great rejoicing heard afar as the people rededicated themselves to God.

There is is no other restoration presented in Scripture.

 

[EarlyActs]

Well, yes, that is assumed, but would you elaborate for me what you mean.

Retroactive means the NT was saying there was only one program all along, as far back as Abraham, and before.

Two people--two programs is Dispensationalism. It said in the late 1800s that 'the Bible does not make sense unless you have our system.' You can find 2P2P asserted by Scofield, Ryrie, Walvoord, Darby, Needham, Pentecost. I do not find it in the Bible, and find that the lines in support are very often used in isolation and are few in number.

2P2P truly does make 2 of everything. I have quotes from pastors saying that Dan 9's atonement cannot possibly be Jesus Christ, which breaks the whole letter of Hebrews, doesn't it? It means there has to be a 2nd atonement for sins at some future time.

 

[EarlyActs]

If you're referring to prophecy, that was fulfilled in the return from exile (Ezra, Nehemiah), when the walls were rebuilt, the temple was
rebuilt, and there was great rejoicing heard afar as the people rededicated themselves to God.

There is is no other restoration presented in Scripture.

Hmmm, the event of Pentecost was 'these times of refreshing' and had the 3 components: restored hearts, the outpouring, and the outreach to the nations. Not all of Israel, which never happens, but a big chunk.