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Overcoming sin....the wet paint principle.

  • Thread starter Thread starter justbyfaith
  • Start date Start date
No; they were complimented for checking what the apostles taught against the scriptures.
6 of 1, half dozen of the other, since both were inspired by the Holy Spirit.
 
I'm not sure I understand what you're saying.
I had said, "And even the Bereans were complemented for checking the Scriptures against what the Apostles taught. (Acts 17:11)"

Then you had said, "No; they were complimented for checking what the apostles taught against the scriptures."

then I said, "6 of 1, half dozen of the other, since both were inspired by the Holy Spirit."

meaning 6 = 1/2 dozen. There is no difference, because all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit as well as the Apostle's teaching on the Gospel to the Jews at Berea
 
I had said, "And even the Bereans were complemented for checking the Scriptures against what the Apostles taught. (Acts 17:11)"

Then you had said, "No; they were complimented for checking what the apostles taught against the scriptures."

then I said, "6 of 1, half dozen of the other, since both were inspired by the Holy Spirit."

meaning 6 = 1/2 dozen. There is no difference, because all Scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit as well as the Apostle's teaching on the Gospel to the Jews at Berea
What do you mean by the last statement?
 
What do you mean by it? Just reiterate it in words I can understand.
I already explained my meaning in post #23, you will have to be specific as to what part you don't understand.
 
What is the 1, and what is the other, and what do you mean by six and half a dozen?
 
what is the 1, and what is the other, and what do you mean by six and half a dozen?
6 of (one) something , say eggs =6
1/2 dozen (another 6) also means 6. So it's an English idiom meaning there really is no difference.
 
6 of (one) something , say eggs =6
1/2 dozen (another 6) also means 6. So it's an English idiom meaning there really is no difference.
Okay...

To that I would say that the Bereans were right to check Paul's word by the scriptures because any human being is fallible but the scriptures are infallible and therefore if there is a discrepancy between apostle and scripture, scripture trumps apostle or even Pope.
 
Okay...

To that I would say that the Bereans were right to check Paul's word by the scriptures because any human being is fallible but the scriptures are infallible and therefore if there is a discrepancy between apostle and scripture, scripture trumps apostle or even Pope.
Agreed (whew).
 
Hi @Soyeong,

Read Romans 7:7-13.

It speaks of the principle that when we are under the law, the law works in us all manner of concupiscence and sin takes advantage of the law to bring us into sin.

Being not under the law as concerning condemnation (having been forgiven of all sins) means that sin shall not have dominion over me.

If I rebuild what I destroyed (in context, I died to the law through the law), I make myself a transgressor (Galatians 2:18-19).
Please address what I said in my first paragraph of post #14.

In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death, so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, where sin had dominion over us, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God should be interpreted as referring to the law of sin rather than to the Law of God, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4-6, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56. For example, there is nothing innate to the command against coveting that causes sin to increase, but rather that command leads us to repent and cause coveting to decrease, so the problem was that the law of sin was working within our members to cause coveting to increase when we are commanded not to covet.

The reason why there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ is because Christ gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to the Law of God is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross (Acts 21:20). Furthermore, in 1 John 2:6, those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked, so being in Christ does not remove our obligation to walk in obedience to the Law of God, but just the opposite.

That means that if I go back to the law for justification, that is the same as sinning willfully (Hebrews 10:26).
While Paul denied that we can earn our justification as wage by obeying the Law of God (Romans 4:1-5), he also said that only doers of the Law of God will be justified, so there must be a reason why our justification requires us to choose to be doers of the law other than in order to earn it as a wage, such as faith insofar as the faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to obey the Law of God, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

This is not to say that I do not obey the law out of a different motivation than fear...out of love for Jesus Christ.
The Hebrew word "pachad" refers to the type of fear that causes us to want to run away and hide while the word "yireh" refers to the type of fear that causes us to see and want to run towards someone. In other words, there is a type of fear where we don't want to be close to someone and a type of fear where we don't want to be separated from someone an the type of fear that is the beginning of wisdom is the latter, so even the fear of God is rooted in love. Likewise, the only way that the God who created the universe could be bothered to get angry at something we could do is if He loves us so much that every little thing that we do gets magnified in importance to Him, so even God's anger is rooted in love.

Because I am thankful to Him for that He has saved me and forgiven me of all of my sins (past, present, and future),

Therefore I desire to be obedient to Him in every matter.

If I should fail to be obedient to Him, I can rest assured that there is no condemnation for me.

Provided that my failure is the result of weakness rather than willful disobedience.

God's
Riches
At
Christ's
Expense

Goodness
Rendered
As
Christ
Empowers

GRACE!
Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so living in obedience to it through faith in Jesus is intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, us honoring our parents is the way that Jesus saves us from not honoring our parents. In Titus 2:11-14, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly righteous and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we are saved because we have first done those works and it is not the case that we are required to do those works because we have first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to do those works it itself the content of His gift of saving us from not doing those works.
 
Hi @Soyeong,

If I believe in Jesus Christ, does violating the law condemn me or do I continue to be redeemed by Jesus Christ in violating the law?

My answer to this question would be that there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.

Of course, those who are in Christ do not generally walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So, if I am in Christ, while there is no condemnation for violating the law, the fact that I am in Christ means that I desire to be obedient to the word of the Lord and that I generally will be obedient.

If I should blow it, if I should mess up, if I should falter or faint, grace is the issue that I am to fall back on.
 
Please address what I said in my first paragraph of post #14.
In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying the Law of God and served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin, which was causing him not to do the good that he wanted to do, which held him captive, and which he served with his flesh, so the the issue is you've cited three verses that refer to the law of sin as justification for why we are not obligated to obey the Law of God for our salvation. For example, in Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, which does not describe the Law of God, which is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Roman 7:12), but rather it is the law of sin where sin had dominion over us. It would be absurd to interpret Romans 7:4-6 as referring to the same law as Romans 7:22 as if Paul delighted in stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death or as if he delighted in being held captive, but rather it is the law of sin that he described as holding him captive.
When it says that we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (as concerning condemnation), it is referring to the law of God as it is contained in the law of Moses as well as the moral tents that we find given to us in the New Testament.
 
Hi @Soyeong,

If I believe in Jesus Christ, does violating the law condemn me or do I continue to be redeemed by Jesus Christ in violating the law?

My answer to this question would be that there is no condemnation for those who are in Jesus Christ.

Of course, those who are in Christ do not generally walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

So, if I am in Christ, while there is no condemnation for violating the law, the fact that I am in Christ means that I desire to be obedient to the word of the Lord and that I generally will be obedient.

If I should blow it, if I should mess up, if I should falter or faint, grace is the issue that I am to fall back on.
Hello,

Indeed, while there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so those who are not walking in the same way he walked in obedience to God's law should not consider themselves to be in Christ. Likewise, God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh, so those who are not walking in obedience to it should not consider themselves to be believing in him.

When we do good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), which is also testifying that we believe that He is good, or in other words, that we are believing in Him, which is why there are many verses that connect our obedience to God with our belief in Him, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Naturally someone can repent if they sin and return to obedience through faith.

When it says that we are not under the law, are dead to the law, and are delivered from the law (as concerning condemnation), it is referring to the law of God as it is contained in the law of Moses as well as the moral tents that we find given to us in the New Testament.
I've made the case for why that doesn't refer to the Law of God/Moses, so please interact with what I say to explain why you disagree.
 
Hello,

Indeed, while there is now therefore no condemnation for those who are in Christ (Romans 8:1), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so those who are not walking in the same way he walked in obedience to God's law should not consider themselves to be in Christ. Likewise, God's word is His instructions for how to believe in God's word made flesh, so those who are not walking in obedience to it should not consider themselves to be believing in him.

When we do good works in obedience to God's law, we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), which is also testifying that we believe that He is good, or in other words, that we are believing in Him, which is why there are many verses that connect our obedience to God with our belief in Him, such as Revelation 14:12, where those who kept faith in Jesus are the same as those who kept God's commandments. Naturally someone can repent if they sin and return to obedience through faith.


I've made the case for why that doesn't refer to the Law of God/Moses, so please interact with what I say to explain why you disagree.
What happens when you blow it? Does grace cover you? Or, are you eternally condemned because you didn't keep God's law perfectly?

I would say that if you are seeking to enter in, based on personal merit, law-keeping, works, or obedience, that you are obligated to keep the whole law perfectly (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48) from conception into eternity.

None of us can do that (see Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:10-18, 23, Galatians 3:22).

So, the only way in, is to be justified by His blood (Romans 5:9).
 
What happens when you blow it? Does grace cover you? Or, are you eternally condemned because you didn't keep God's law perfectly?
If we need to have perfect obedience for some stranger reason, then we would have the option of repenting after we have sinned, but we do have that option. In other words repentance does not change the fact that we have not kept God's law perfectly, so the fact that repentance has value demonstrates that we are not required to have perfect obedience. In Deuteronomy 30:11-20, it says that God's law is not too difficult to obey and that obedience brings life and a blessing while disobedience brings death and a curse, so choose life! So it was presented as a possibility and as a choice, not as the need for perfect obedience. Even if someone managed to have perfect obedience, then they still would not earn their righteousness as a wage (Roman 5:1), so there is nothing that we earn if we have perfect obedience and nothing that we fail to earn if we do not have perfect obedience, so that has always been a fundamental misunderstanding of the goal of the law.

I would say that if you are seeking to enter in, based on personal merit, law-keeping, works, or obedience, that you are obligated to keep the whole law perfectly (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48) from conception into eternity.
It is not the case that we earn our justification as the result of having first obeyed God's law because God's law even through perfect obedience because God's law was never given as a means of earning our justification, so that is not why we should obey it. In Deuteronomy 11:26-32, the difference between being under God's blessing or His curse is about choosing a mountain and climbing it, about whether we are going to choose to follow God or to chase after other gods, not based on whether or not we have perfect obedience. In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned by showing favoritism, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he was not discouraging them from trying to keep it, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and to obey it more consistently. In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus was speaking about having a love that is complete where we do not just love those who love us, but also love our enemies, which has nothing to do with the concept of needing perfect obedience to be justified. There would be no point in Jesus telling people who have not had perfect obedience that they need to have perfect obedience.

None of us can do that (see Galatians 6:13, Romans 3:10-18, 23, Galatians 3:22)
The Bible refers to many people who are righteous, such as Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is not the case that none of us can become righteous, but rather Paul was quoting Psalms 14:1-3, which says that no one is righteous among those who say that there is no God.

.So, the only way in, is to be justified by His blood (Romans 5:9).
In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works in obedience to God's law is the way to believe in what Jesus accomplished through the cross and the way to be justified by faith in his blood (Acts 21:20).
 
@Soyeong,

consider:

Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
 
@Soyeong,

consider:

Gal 3:11, But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.
Gal 3:12, And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
In Acts 5:32, the Spirit has been given to those who obey God, so obedience to God is part of the way to receive the Spirit, however, Galatians 3:1-2 denies that "works of the law" is part of the way to receive the Spirit, therefore that phrase does not refer to obedience to God. In Romans 3:27-31, Paul contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, so works of the law are of works, while he said that our faith upholds God's law, so it is of faith, and a law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith. In Galatians 3:11-12, Paul connected a quote from Habakkuk 2:4 saying that the righteous shall live by faith with a quote from Leviticus 18:5 that the one who obeys God's law will live by it, so the righteous who are living by faith are the same as those who are living in obedience to God's law. Likewise, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, so the righteous living by faith does not refer to a manner of living that is not in obedience to it. God is trustworthy, therefore His law is also trustworthy (Psalms 19:7), so the way to have faith in God is by having faith in what He has instructed, to deny that God's law is of faith is to deny the faithfulness of God, and it is contradictory to think that we should have faith in God, but not in what He has instructed.
 
No, he says in Galatians 3:11-12 that the law is not of faith.

And, the works of the law is in fact obedience.

It's just that we ought not to think that we are justified by that obedience; because justification comes solely through faith in the blood of Jesus.

Obedience comes, not in order to obtain or maintain salvation; but because we have fallen head over heels in love with Jesus Christ.

Being thankful to Him for what He has done for us, we love Him, because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

John 14:15 tells us that if we love Him, we will obey His commandments.

Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20, and other passages, tell us that this obedience does not justify us before God.
 
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