Overcoming sin....the wet paint principle.

[justbyfaith]

Also, Acts 5:32 may be saying, not that we obtain the Holy Spirit through obedience, but that all who have the Holy Spirit will be obedient to the Lord.

 

[Soyeong]

No, he says in Galatians 3:11-12 that the law is not of faith.

And, the works of the law is in fact obedience.

It's just that we ought not to think that we are justified by that obedience; because justification comes solely through faith in the blood of Jesus.

Obedience comes, not in order to obtain or maintain salvation; but because we have fallen head over heels in love with Jesus Christ.

Being thankful to Him for what He has done for us, we love Him, because He first loved us (1 John 4:19).

John 14:15 tells us that if we love Him, we will obey His commandments.

Galatians 2:16, Romans 3:20, and other passages, tell us that this obedience does not justify us before God.

Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as in Romans 7:25-8:2, he contrasted the Law of God with the law of sin and contrasted the Law of the Spirit of life with the law of sin and death, in Romans 3:37, he contrasted a law of works with a law of faith, and in Romans 3:31 and Galatian 3:12, he contrasted a law that our faith upholds with works of the law that are not of faith. So it is important to correctly identify which law he was speaking about and if you insist that he was always speaking about the Law of God regardless of whether that makes sense, then you will interpret him as contradicting himself and make him out to be an enemy of God.

Galatians 3:10-12 states that "works of the law" are not of faith, so the issue is whether we should interpret that phrase as referring to the Law of God, and I've made the case that we should not. It would not make sense to interpret Romans 3:31 and Galatians 3:12 as both referring to the same law. It would not make sense to interpret Galatians 3:12 as saying that we should trust God, but not trust in what He has instructed. Christ set a sinless example of how to walk in obedience to God's law, so it would not make sense to interpret Paul as speaking against following Christ. Paul was a servant of God, so it would not make sense to interpret him as teaching us to rebel against what He has commanded. Acts 5:32 does not say that the Spirit has been given to those who will obey God, but even if did, being someone who will obey God would still be part of what is required to receive the Spirit.

Our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is the transgression of God's law (1 John 3:4), so while we di not earn our salvation as a wage as the result of having first obeyed it, living in obedience to it through faith in the blood of Jesus is nevertheless intrinsically part of the concept of him saving us from not living in obedience to it. For example, honoring our parents is intrinsically part of the concept of Jesus saving us from not honoring our parents and this is not changed by the fact that honoring our parents should be motivated by our love and thankfulness towards him.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was justified (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was justified was also expressed as obedience to God, but he did not earn his justification as a wage as the result of his obedience (Romans 4:1-5). In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was justified by his works when he offered Isaac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was justified by his works insofar as they were an expression of his faith, but not insofar as they were earning a wage.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @Soyeong,

I will only say that the Bible teaches that we do not any longer obey according to the letter but that we now obey according to the spirit of what is written.

In other words, we don't find our obedience in attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; crossing our t's and dotting our i's...

Instead, as believers we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit through that faith (Galatians 3:14).

So, the Holy Spirit is now the motivating factor in all that we do.

If anyone is obedient to the Spirit, he is not under the law (Galatians 5:18).

If we walk according to the Spirit, we will not walk according to the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:16); which things are distinctly in disobedience to things that are written in the law of the Lord.

If we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

And therefore, in walking according to the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

We have a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets...that is, the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

This righteousness is not obtained by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts but by faith.

As it is written,

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Those who seek to be righteous through law-keeping, or attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, crossing their t's and dotting their i's...have stumbled at that stumbling stone.

The real way to righteousness is by faith:

Phl 3:3, For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:4, Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5, Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6, Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7, But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8, Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

It is also written,

Rom 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

 

[justbyfaith]

If we walk according to the Spirit, we will not walk according to the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:16); which things are distinctly in disobedience to things that are written in the law of the Lord.

(Galatians 5:19-21).

 

[Soyeong]

Hi @Soyeong,

I will only say that the Bible teaches that we do not any longer obey according to the letter but that we now obey according to the spirit of what is written.

In other words, we don't find our obedience in attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; crossing our t's and dotting our i's...

Instead, as believers we have placed our faith in Jesus Christ, and have received the Holy Spirit through that faith (Galatians 3:14).

So, the Holy Spirit is now the motivating factor in all that we do.

If anyone is obedient to the Spirit, he is not under the law (Galatians 5:18).

If we walk according to the Spirit, we will not walk according to the works of the flesh (Galatians 5:16); which things are distinctly in disobedience to things that are written in the law of the Lord.

If we bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

And therefore, in walking according to the Spirit, we become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom of heaven.

We have a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets...that is, the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed (Romans 3:21).

This righteousness is not obtained by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts but by faith.

As it is written,

Rom 9:30, What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
Rom 9:31, But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32, Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
Rom 9:33, As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Rom 10:1, Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2, For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3, For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4, For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

Those who seek to be righteous through law-keeping, or attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, crossing their t's and dotting their i's...have stumbled at that stumbling stone.

The real way to righteousness is by faith:

Phl 3:3, For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.
Phl 3:4, Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more:
Phl 3:5, Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee;
Phl 3:6, Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.
Phl 3:7, But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ.
Phl 3:8, Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ,
Phl 3:9, And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

It is also written,

Rom 5:9, Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

When God gave the Mosaic Law, do you think that He was acting in accordance with the Spirit or contrary to the Spirit? The Spirit is God and the Mosaic Law was given by God, so it is the Law of the Spirit, which is why everything listed in Galatians 5:19-23 as works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against the Mosaic Law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it, why Romana 8:4-7 contrasts those who walk in the Spirit with those who have minds set on the flesh who are enemies of God who refuse to submit to the Mosaic Law, and Ezekiel 36:26-27 says that the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey the Mosaic Law. So it would be absurd to interpret Galatians 5:16-18 as saying that we are not under the Law of the Spirit when we are led by the Spirit, but rather Paul described the desires of the flesh as causing us not to do the good that we want to do, which matches his description of his struggle with the law of sin in Romans 7, so it is the law of sin that we are not under when we are led by the Spirit.

While I agree that we should not follow the letter, it is important to correctly understand what Paul meant by that. If following the letter refers to correctly doing what God has instructed and if following the letter leads to death, then that would mean that God is misleading His people and should not be trusted. Furthermore, there are many verses that state that following what God has instructed leads to life, such as in Luke 10:25-28, Jesus affirmed that obedience to the greatest two commandments is the way to inherit eternal life. It is contradictory to think that God leads us to life while thinking that following His instructions leads to death, so do you think that God leads us to life or death?

The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done righteous works in order to earn our righteousness as a wage. Becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness through faith, and it is contradictory to become someone who is righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness, which is why the faith by which we are declared righteous does not abolish our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law, but rathe your faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). God's law is His instructions for how to practice righteousness, not for how to become righteous. For example, God's law reveals that helping the poor is a way to practice righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone to become righteous because the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith (Romans 3:21-22). So when God declares us to be righteous through faith that means that He is declaring us to be someone who practices righteousness in obedience to His law through faith.

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew them, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law. In Romans 9:30-10:4, they had a zeal for God, but it was not based on knowing Him, so they failed to attain righteousness because they misunderstood the goal of the law by pursuing it as through righteousness were earned as the result of their works in order to establish their own rather than by pursuing the law as through righteousness were by faith in Christ, for knowing Christ is the goal of the law for righteousness for everyone who has faith. In Romans 10:5-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, in regard to saying that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose him from the dead.

In accordance with Jesus saying that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him, Philippians 3:3-9 should not be interpreted as saying that we just need to know Christ and that obedience to God's law is dung. Rather, Paul had been in the same situation as those in Romans 9:30-10:10, where he had been pursuing the law, but not while being focused on the goal of knowing Christ, so he had being missing the whole goal of the law, and that is what he counted as dung. The holy, righteous, and good commandments of God are not dung.

 

[justbyfaith]

Hi @Soyeong,

According to the righteousness of the law, Paul was blameless; and he counted that righteousness as dung in order that he might have the righteousness which is of God by faith.

His own righteousness, which was by the law, could only affect the outside of the cup and platter; the righteousness which is of God through faith would result in cleansing the inside of the cup and platter (see Matthew 23:25-28).

Galatians 5:16-18 teaches is that we are not under the law (as a set of moral tenets) as concerning condemnation; if we be led of the Spirit.

Galatians 3:21 tells us that there has been no law ever given that could impart life; not even the commandments to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength; and to love thy neighbor as thyself.

What imparts life is faith in Jesus Christ; through which we obtain the Holy Spirit; even life (Galatians 3:14).

Because we now have the Holy Spirit, we also have the love of the Lord (Romans 5:5); and this is the fulfilling of the righteousness of the law within us (Romans 13:8-10, 8:4).

Life was not imparted by our law-keeping but through faith in Christ; but law-keeping came as the result.

Not through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts; crossing our t's and dotting our i's...but in having the love of the Lord shed abroad in our hearts (Romans 5:5) through faith (Galatians 3:14).

Romans 3:21 tells us that we have a righteousness of God apart from the law, which is attested to by the law and the prophets.

1) it is apart from the law;

2) the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed.

In Galatians 5:22-23, we find that in simply bearing the fruit of the Spirit, our behaviour will be such that there is no law anywhere that will condemn our behaviour.

In Romans 7:7-13, we find a principle; that the law as moral tenets is something that is good, and righteous, and holy; and yet it is usable by the element of sin within us to create in us all manner of concupiscence. Sin and satan use the law to bring temptation to us. It is a "forbidden fruit" or "wet paint" principle. Check out the document some more that is the main focus of this thread as it gives insight as concerning this principle.

When we are no longer focused on the law, but rather are focused on living by the Spirit, sin no longer has the power to tempt us through the law.

Our righteousness in it comes not through attempting to cross our t's and dot our i's in obeying a set of do's and don'ts; but through living by the Spirit.

There is no law that will condemn our behaviour if we are living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18,22-23).

Therefore, the law only serves to give us the knowledge of sin, it is by no means capable of bringing us victory over sin.

We cannot obtain victory over sin by doubling down in our efforts to obey the law.

We gain victory over sin through faith in Jesus and obtaining the Holy Spirit through that faith.

Then, as we walk according to the Spirit, we will not be violating the law because we are behaving according to love.

If at any time we do not walk according to the Spirit, it will be evident that we are sinning in that there will be some law that will pop out at us in scripture that the Holy Spirit says that we are violating.

Our response should not be to try harder not to violate that law; it should be to seek the face of Christ for His sanctification and holiness.

 

[justbyfaith]

I find that obedience to the law in holy scripture as the way to life is set in contrast to entering into life through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4-8, esp. v.5; Galatians 3:10-13, esp. v.12)...

They are set forth as two opposing ways of entering into life.

Now, if I have faith in Jesus, it will most assuredly result in my being obedient to the moral tenets of the law (while my road to obedience would be through faith rather than through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts...I would arrive at obedience in a roundabout manner).

But, if I seek to enter in through seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts, I may in fact be denying the only way to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

If I believe in Jesus, my obedience to the law (or lack of it) won't condemn me;

But if I am obedient to the law, my lack of faith in Jesus may in fact condemn me if that is the state of my heart.

I can be perfectly obedient to the law and yet be utterly condemned (if I don't believe in Jesus).

And I can be heavily disobedient to it and yet be saved (if I do believe in Jesus).

Of course being obedient is the sure result of believing in Jesus!

However, in the testimony of scripture, obedience doesn't save and disobedience doesn't bring a man to condemnation.

Faith is the primary issue in all of this.

 

[justbyfaith]

There is a curse involved in seeking to obtain righteousness / salvation through law-keeping (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48; Galatians 5:1-4);

while if you know that you are righteous / saved through faith in Jesus' shed blood, there is a blessing associated with looking into the perfect law of liberty and obeying it (James 1:25).

You can indeed look at individual commandments and seek to obey them individually as acts done in the love of God.

You can say, "such a thing would be in accordance with love; and therefore I will do it" as a narrower application of the broader commandment to love.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Soyeong.

 

[Soyeong]

Hi @Soyeong,

According to the righteousness of the law, Paul was blameless; and he counted that righteousness as dung in order that he might have the righteousness which is of God by faith.

His own righteousness, which was by the law, could only affect the outside of the cup and platter; the righteousness which is of God through faith would result in cleansing the inside of the cup and platter (see Matthew 23:25-28).

Hello.

What Paul counted as dung as not his obedience to God's law, but His obedience to God while not being focus on knowing Christ. God does not command dung, but rather the righteous deeds of the saints are like fine white linen (Revelation 19:8). God's law was never given as a way of establishing our own righteousness, but to teach us how to testify about God's righteousness. It is contradictory to contrast having faith in God with having faith in what He has instructed.

Galatians 5:16-18

The law that it describes us as not being under is a law where the desires of the flesh causes us not to do the good of obeying God's law that we want to do, which is the law of sin. In Ezekiel 36:26-27, the Spirit has the role of leading us to obey God's law, so when we are led by the Spirit we are under God's law, but not under the law of sin, not the other way around.

Galatians 3:21 tells us that there has been no law ever given that could impart life; not even the commandments to love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, soul, mind, and strength; and to love thy neighbor as thyself.

What imparts life is faith in Jesus Christ; through which we obtain the Holy Spirit; even life (Galatians 3:14).

While we are not required to have first obeyed God's law in order to earn eternal life as a wage, there are nevertheless many verses that show that eternal life requires our obedience to it, such as Matthew 19:17, Luke 10:25-28, Hebrews 5:9, Romans 2:6-7, Romans 6:19-23, and Revelation 22:14. It is contradictory to think that we have eternal life through faith in the one who is the embodiment of God's word, but not through embodying God's word, but rather embodying God's word is the way to have faith in the one who is the embodying of God's word.

Life was not imparted by our law-keeping but through faith in Christ; but law-keeping came as the result.

Jesus did not say that obedience to God's commandments is the result go having first entered eternal life, but that obedience to God's commandments is the way to enter eternal life.

Romans 3:21 tells us that we have a righteousness of God apart from the law, which is attested to by the law and the prophets.

1) it is apart from the law;

2) the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed.

While the only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first practiced righteousness in obedience to God's law, becoming righteous through faith means becoming someone who practices righteousness through faith, so it is contradictory to become righteous apart from becoming someone who practices righteousness in obedience to God's law. This is why the faith by which we are declared righteous also uphold our need to practice righteousness in obedience to God's law (Romans 3:27-31).

In Galatians 5:22-23, we find that in simply bearing the fruit of the Spirit, our behaviour will be such that there is no law anywhere that will condemn our behaviour.

In Galatians 5:19-23, all of the works of the flesh that are against the Spirit are also against God's law while all of the fruits of the Spirit are in accordance with it.

When we are no longer focused on the law, but rather are focused on living by the Spirit, sin no longer has the power to tempt us through the law.

That is contradictory.

There is no law that will condemn our behaviour if we are living by the Spirit (Galatians 5:18,22-23).

Therefore, the law only serves to give us the knowledge of sin, it is by no means capable of bringing us victory over sin.

God's law is not against the fruits of the Spirit because it was given to teach us how to practice the fruits of the Spirit and only reveals what sin is by contrast.

Our response should not be to try harder not to violate that law; it should be to seek the face of Christ for His sanctification and holiness.

That is again contradictory. In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, in Pslalm 119:160, the sum of God's word is truth, and in John 17:17, it says to sanctify them in truth and that God's word is truth.

I find that obedience to the law in holy scripture as the way to life is set in contrast to entering into life through faith in Jesus Christ (Romans 10:4-8, esp. v.5; Galatians 3:10-13, esp. v.12).

No, obedience to God's word is the way to enter life through faith in God's word made flesh. In Romans 10:4-10, our faith references Deuteronomy 30:11-16 as the word of faith that we proclaim in regard to saying that God's law is not too difficult to obey, that obedience to it brings life, in regard to what we are agreeing to obey by confessing that Jesus is Lord, and in regard to the way to believe that God rose Him from the dead. In Romans 3:31, our faith upholds God's law, and the law that our faith upholds can't be referring to the same thing as the works of the law that are not of faith in Galatians 3:10-13.

They are set forth as two opposing ways of entering into life.

There is only one way to enter eternal life because God's law is His instructions for how to believe in Jesus.

Now, if I have faith in Jesus, it will most assuredly result in my being obedient to the moral tenets of the law (while my road to obedience would be through faith rather than through attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts...I would arrive at obedience in a roundabout manner).

But, if I seek to enter in through seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts, I may in fact be denying the only way to salvation through faith in Jesus Christ.

That is contradictory.

If I believe in Jesus, my obedience to the law (or lack of it) won't condemn me;

But if I am obedient to the law, my lack of faith in Jesus may in fact condemn me if that is the state of my heart.

While it is true that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ (1 John 2:6), those who are in Christ are obligated to walk in the same way he walked (1 John 2:6), so there is only no condemnation for those who are walking in obedience to God's law.

I can be perfectly obedient to the law and yet be utterly condemned (if I don't believe in Jesus).

And I can be heavily disobedient to it and yet be saved (if I do believe in Jesus).

God's law is instructions for how to believe in Jesus, so that is contradictory.

There is a curse involved in seeking to obtain righteousness / salvation through law-keeping (Galatians 3:10, James 2:10, Matthew 5:48; Galatians 5:1-4);

According to Deuteronomy 27-28, relying on God's law is the way to be blessed while not relying on it is the way to be cursed, so Galatians 3:10 should not be interpreted as quoting from that passage in order to argue against it, but rather those who rely on works of the law instead of relying on the God's law thereby come under the curse for not relying on God's law.

In James 2:1-11, he was speaking to people who had already sinned, so he was not telling them that they needed to have perfect obedience because that would have already been too late, and he said nothing to encourage or discourage them from obeying God's law in order to earn their salvation, but rather he was encouraging them to repent and obey God's law more consistently.

In Matthew 5:43-48, Jesus was speaking about having a love that is full or complete where we do not just love those who love us, but also love our enemies, which has nothing to do with needing perfect obedience to be saved.

All throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and return to obedience to His law and even Christ began his ministry with that Gospel message, so Galatians 5:1-4 should not be interpreted as speaking against doing that and warning that we will be cut off from Christ if we follow Christ. In Romans 4:1-5, we would not earn our salvation as the result of having first obeyed God's law even if we managed to have perfect obedience to it, so that was never the goal of why we should obey it.

while if you know that you are righteous / saved through faith in Jesus' shed blood, there is a blessing associated with looking into the perfect law of liberty and obeying it (James 1:25).

The Mosaic Law is perfect (Psalms 19:7), it is a law of liberty (Psalm 119:45), and it blesses those who obey it, so James 1:25 was not saying anything about the Mosaic Law that wasn't already said in the Psalms.

You can indeed look at individual commandments and seek to obey them individually as acts done in the love of God.

You can say, "such a thing would be in accordance with love; and therefore I will do it" as a narrower application of the broader commandment to love.

Agreed.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Soyeong,

I am just going to leave you to read your Bible and I pray that you will come to the knowledge of the truth someday.

I have said my piece.

I would suggest to you that what you think is contradictory, is not contradictory in my mind; and that therefore I believe that you should seek understanding from the Lord as to how the concepts that you think to be contradictory actually do not contradict each other.

It has been said that there are many contradictions in the Bible; however I have found none that I have been unable to reconcile from the scriptures and logic.

I want you to know that I am rooting for you; not that you would continue to be able to deceive people, as your posts might be prone to doing; but that you might ultimately come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved through a simple faith in what Jesus did for you on the Cross; and through faith in that alone.

Obedience is fine and dandy as long as you don't trust in it to save you.

I think that this is what Paul is saying in Philippians 3:1-9...that his obedience to the law was a reason to trust in the flesh or in his own self-effort; and that he counted that as dung in order that he might receive the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Again, the righteousness of the law will cleanse the outside of the cup and platter; the righteousness which is of God by faith cleanses also the inside (see Matthew 23:25-28).

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith.

 

[justbyfaith]

@Soyeong,

I was just reading my Bible and came across the following verses.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Tell me, when it speaks of the law in these verses, is it speaking of the law as a set of moral tenets or is it speaking of the law of sin and death?

 

[Soyeong]

@Soyeong,

I am just going to leave you to read your Bible and I pray that you will come to the knowledge of the truth someday.

I have said my piece.

Thank you.

I would suggest to you that what you think is contradictory, is not contradictory in my mind; and that therefore I believe that you should seek understanding from the Lord as to how the concepts that you think to be contradictory actually do not contradict each other.

It has been said that there are many contradictions in the Bible; however I have found none that I have been unable to reconcile from the scriptures and logic.

I want you to know that I am rooting for you; not that you would continue to be able to deceive people, as your posts might be prone to doing; but that you might ultimately come to the knowledge of the truth and be saved through a simple faith in what Jesus did for you on the Cross; and through faith in that alone.

In Psalms 119:142, God's law is truth, so obedience to it is the way to come to the knowledge of the truth. In Titus 2:14, Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, so becoming zealous for doing good works is the way to have faith alone in what Jesus did for us on the cross.

Obedience is fine and dandy as long as you don't trust in it to save you.

While we do not earn our salvation by our obedience, we can practice our faith by our obedience, such as with those listed in Hebrews 11, and we are saved by that faith.

I think that this is what Paul is saying in Philippians 3:1-9...that his obedience to the law was a reason to trust in the flesh or in his own self-effort; and that he counted that as dung in order that he might receive the righteousness which is of God by faith.

Again, the righteousness of the law will cleanse the outside of the cup and platter; the righteousness which is of God by faith cleanses also the inside (see Matthew 23:25-28).

Love in Christ,

justbyfaith.

If God's law were His instructions for how to become self-righteous and clean just the outside of the cup and God does not want us to do that, then it would follow that God therefore does not want to be obeyed, which is absurd considering that all throughout the Bible, God wanted His people to repent and to return to obedience to His law, therefore, it is not God's instructions for how to do those things. By doing good works we are testifying about God's goodness, which is why our good works bring glory to Him (Matthew 5:16), not establishing our own goodness. While that works that someone is doing can be about establishing their own goodness or righteousness or cleaning the outside of the cup, the problem is not that they are obeying God's law, but that they are not obeying it correctly. In Philippians 3:1-9, Paul had been incorrectly obeying God's law because his obedience to it was not focusing on knowing Christ. It is contradictory to have faith in God, but not in His instructions.

@Soyeong,

I was just reading my Bible and came across the following verses.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Tell me, when it speaks of the law in these verses, is it speaking of the law as a set of moral tenets or is it speaking of the law of sin and death?

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew the, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law and that is why it brings us to him. By practicing goodness in obedience to God's law through faith, we are experientially knowing Christ's goodness, which is the way to grow in a relationship with Him through faith alone, and it is by that faith that we are justified. Those verses are speaking about the Law of Moses, which is a set of moral tenets, not about the law of sin and death.

 

[justbyfaith]

deleted.

 

[justbyfaith]

In Matthew 7:23, Jesus said that he would tell those who are workers of lawlessness to depart from him because he never knew the, so knowing Christ is the goal of the law and that is why it brings us to him. By practicing goodness in obedience to God's law through faith, we are experientially knowing Christ's goodness, which is the way to grow in a relationship with Him through faith alone, and it is by that faith that we are justified. Those verses are speaking about the Law of Moses, which is a set of moral tenets, not about the law of sin and death.

Okay, good, now follow my reasoning.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Notice, you have said that these verses are referring to the law of Moses; or the law as a set of moral tenets.

You have said that this law is not the law of sin and death.

The scripture itself teaches that this law is a schoolmaster to bring us into Christ.

Now, consider the context:

Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

In other words, we are no longer under the law as a set of moral tenets; because the law is the schoolmaster being spoken of here.

Now, scripture interprets scripture:

Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Based on what we just discovered, we can determine that it is the law as a set of moral tenets that we are not under when we come to be under grace; and to be consistent, it is not the law of sin and death.

 

[Soyeong]

Okay, good, now follow my reasoning.

Gal 3:23, But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
Gal 3:24, Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Notice, you have said that these verses are referring to the law of Moses; or the law as a set of moral tenets.

You have said that this law is not the law of sin and death.

The scripture itself teaches that this law is a schoolmaster to bring us into Christ.

Now, consider the context:

Gal 3:25, But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

In other words, we are no longer under the law as a set of moral tenets; because the law is the schoolmaster being spoken of here.

Someone who disregarded everything that their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would be missing the whole point of being under a schoolmaster. A student does not move on to algebra by disregarding everything that they were taught about addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. It does not make sense to interpret this as saying that that the law brings us to Christ so that can now reject him and go back to living immorally, but rather the law leads us to Christ because it teaches us how to know Him.

Now, scripture interprets scripture:


Rom 6:14, For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Based on what we just discovered, we can determine that it is the law as a set of moral tenets that we are not under when we come to be under grace; and to be consistent, it is not the law of sin and death.

Scripture does not interpret Scripture, but rather interpretation is an action that can only be done by sentient beings. There is nothing about one verse referring to the Law of Moses that means that a different verse in a different book is also referring to the Law of Moses. In Romans 6:14, it does not say that moral tenants will no longer have dominion over you, but rather it says sin will no longer have dominion over you. The law where sin had dominion over us is the law of sin, not the Law of Moses.

In Romans 7:7, the Law of God is not sinful, but is how we know what sin is, and when our sin is revealed, then that leads us to repent and causes sin to decrease, however, the law of sin stirs up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death (Romans 7:5), so it is sinful and causes sin to increase. In other words, the Law of God leads us to do what is holy righteous and good, so it is a law where holiness, righteousness, and goodness have dominion over us (Romans 7:12) while the law of sin leads us to sin, so it is a law where sin has dominion over us. In Romans 7, Paul said that the Law of God is good and that he wanted to do good, but contrasted that with the law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good of obeying the Law of God that he wanted to do. So verses that refer to a law that is sinful, that causes sin to increase, or that hinders us from obeying the Law of God are referring to the law of sin, such as Romans 5:20, Romans 6:14, Romans 7:5, Galatians 2:19, Galatians 5:16-18, and 1 Corinthians 15:56.

In Romans 7:22, Paul delighted in obeying the Law of God, so verses that refer to something that would be absurd for him to delight in doing should not be interpreted as referring to the Law of God, such as it would be absurd if Paul delighted in causing sin to increase (Romans 5:20). Likewise, it would be absurd to interpret other verses as Paul speaking against doing what he delighted in doing.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not under the law as a schoolmaster; and this is referring to the law as a set of moral tenets.

Therefore, when it says that we are not under the law but under grace, it is referring to the same law; it is also referring to the law as a set of moral tenets.

And scripture does in fact interpret scripture:

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That is a law of hermeneutics.

We are not under the law as a set of moral tenets; so why do you feel the need to change the meaning of Romans 6:14 to fit your own idea of what you think the scriptures ought to say?

Romans 7:5 is speaking of the law as a moral standard.

Think of how Eve in the garden was tempted when she came face to face with the law that was given to Adam.

The law as it was given to her, as a moral tenet, became a "forbidden fruit" or "wet paint" principle so that sin was able to utilize the law as a moral tenet in order to tempt her to take of the fruit that was in front of her.

I would suggest thinking about these things extensively.

I am not trying to deceive you here, @Soyong, but I desire to correct you in an area that you have erred in, in order that you might have a more accurate understanding of the word of the Lord.

It may not be easy to receive correction; but humility and the fear of the LORD will lead you in that direction.

 

[Soyeong]

We are not under the law as a schoolmaster; and this is referring to the law as a set of moral tenets.

Therefore, when it says that we are not under the law but under grace, it is referring to the same law; it is also referring to the law as a set of moral tenets.

Having no more need for a schoolmaster is not the same as having no more need live by what they taught you. Someone who disregarded everything their schoolmaster taught them after they graduated would need to go back under the schoolmaster for a remedial education. Furthermore, all of the surrounding verses support continued obedience to the Law of God. Lastly, there is nothing about one verses speaking about the Law of God that necessitates that other verses are also speaking about the Law of God, especially to the point of you ignoring how other verses describe the law that they are speaking about.[/quote]

And scripture does in fact interpret scripture:

1Co 2:13, Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

That is a law of hermeneutics.

If Scripture interpreted Scripture, then there would be no one who disagreed about how how it should be interpreted. As a law of hermeneutics we should use other verses on the same topic to help us to correctly interpret a verse, but we are the ones doing the interpreting, not the Scripture itself.

We are not under the law as a set of moral tenets; so why do you feel the need to change the meaning of Romans 6:14 to fit your own idea of what you think the scriptures ought to say?

Paul spoke about multiple categories of law other than the Law of God, such as works of the law and the law of sin, so it should at least be worth determining which law a verse is referring to rather than insisting that he was always speaking about the Law of God without regard to how he described the law he was speaking about. In Romans 6:14, Paul described the law that we are not under as being a law where sin had dominion over us, so I'm not changing the meaning of the verse to fit my own idea of what I think it ought to say, but rather I'm simply noting that this perfectly matches his description of the law of sin and does not at all match his description of the Law of God. Furthermore, in Romans 6:15, being under grace does not mean that we are permitted to sin and sin is the transgression of the Law of God, so we are still under a set of moral tenants.

Romans 7:5 is speaking of the law as a moral standard.

Stirring up sinful passions in order to bear fruit unto death is hardly a moral standard. Paul said that the Law of God is good and that he wanted to do good, but that there was a law of sin that was working within his members to cause him not to do the good that he wanted to do.

Think of how Eve in the garden was tempted when she came face to face with the law that was given to Adam.

The law as it was given to her, as a moral tenet, became a "forbidden fruit" or "wet paint" principle so that sin was able to utilize the law as a moral tenet in order to tempt her to take of the fruit that was in front of her.

I would suggest thinking about these things extensively.

I am not trying to deceive you here, @Soyong, but I desire to correct you in an area that you have erred in, in order that you might have a more accurate understanding of the word of the Lord.

It may not be easy to receive correction; but humility and the fear of the LORD will lead you in that direction.

There is nothing innate to the command to love our neighbor that causes sin to increase, but rather the problem is that there was a law of sin that was working within us to cause us to want to do the opposite of what we are commanded to do, but you're taking what Paul said about this law of sin and are in error by applying it as though he were speaking against the Law of God.

 

[justbyfaith]

We are not under the law as a schoolmaster and I am not preaching to you that we do not live by the principles, as those who have graduated, that were taught to us by the schoolmaster.

But I say that the whole law is fulfilled if we obey one command, "to love thy neighbor as thyself"...

And therefore when we walk according to the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that will condemn us in our behaviour (Galatians 5:22-23).

We have a righteousness apart from the law that is nevertheless attested to by the law and the prophets (Romans 3:21).

1) it is apart from the law;

2) both the law and the prophets testify that it is righteousness indeed.

In that it is apart from the law, it means that the venue by which we obtain this righteousness is not by attempting to obey a set of do's and don'ts, crossing our t's and dotting our i's...

But we come to this righteousness in that we have received the Spirit through faith in Christ (Galatians 3:14);

And in walking according to the Spirit and in bearing the fruit of the Spirit, we inadvertently become law-abiding citizens of the kingdom (Galatians 5:18,22-23)!

It should be clear that the law as a set of moral tenets is something that it utilized by the element of sin within us to produce in us all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:8); just as Eve was tempted when the serpent faced her with the "law" as a moral tenet, as it was given to Adam.

I would suggest reading again the document that is the primary subject of this thread, which is about the "forbidden fruit" or "wet paint" principle.

The entire document is based on a correct understanding of Romans 7:5-13.

I would be willing to venture that you yourself don't have victory over certain sins in the Bible because you have not understood this principle.

Such as,

Mat 5:27, Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery:
Mat 5:28, But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.
Mat 5:29, And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.
Mat 5:30, And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell.

This is because it is the law as a set of moral tenets that produces in you all manner of concupiscence (Romans 7:8) when you are faced with it.

And I think that what you are not realizing is that I am offering to you a solution to captivity to sin when I teach you that the law in these verses is the law as a set of moral tenets and not just "the law of sin and death."

For when it is speaking of the law of sin and death, the law in question is identified as being "of sin and death".

 

[justbyfaith]

Gal 2:16, Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Gal 2:17, But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid.
Gal 2:18, For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor.
Gal 2:19, For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.
Gal 2:20, I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
Gal 2:21, I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.