Open Theism

[Carbon]

From the Provisionism thread:
Open Theism: Provisionism does not view open theism as heretical, instead advocating for a sympathetic and inclusive stance toward open theists within the church community.
This is Open Theism's concept of Divine providence.

Open Theism has been emerging for quite some time now, as a prominent alternative to the classic Arminian model of divine providence.

Here is a summary of it in a book that came out in 1994, "a biblical challenge to the traditional understanding of God."
This book is advancing the open view of God. Our understanding of the scriptures leads us to depict God, the sovereign Creator, as voluntarily bringing into existence a world with significantly free personal agents in it, agents who can respond positively to God or reject His plans for them. In line with the decision to make this kind of world, God rules in such a way as to uphold the created structures and, because He gives liberty to His creatures, is happy to accept the future as open not closed, and a relationship with the world that is dynamic, not static. We believe that the bible presents an open view of God as living and active, involved in history, relating to us, and changing in relation to us. We see the universe as a contet in which there are real choices, alternatives and suprises. God's openess means theat God is open to the changing realities of history, that God cares about us and lets what we do impact Him. Our lives make a difference to God - they are truly significant. God is delighted when we trust Him and saddened when we rebell against Him. God made us significant creatures and treats us as such.
There are 5 co-authors to this book.


This is Open Theism's concept of Divine providence.

 

[Carbon]

Proponents of Open Theism are, in one sense, committed Arminians. That is, they affirm such cardinal Arminian doctrines as
1) The universal and impartial love of God for all humanity and His true desire that all be saved,
2) God's creation of humans with genuine freedom of will (i.e., libertarian free will),
3) the necessity of such genuine freedom for true worship of God, love for God, and human moral accountability.

Though they do embrace these Arminian commitments they are disturbed by other aspects of Arminian theology.
Particularly, they object to the notion that the divine omniscience includes comprehensive knowledge of the future.
For those who may not know, Omniscience is the doctrine that God knows all that can be known or is knowable.

But Open Theists believe, God only has knowledge of the past and present only. All future things are undetermined by God (which includes all future free choices and actions), since it has not happened and hence is not real cannot be an object of knowledge. The future, they say, is logically unknowable. And not even God can rightly be said to know what cannot in principle be known.

This redefinition of omniscience, and with it, its departure from Christian Orthodoxy (including classical Arminianism's) commitment to God's comprehensive knowledge of the future has elicited strong reaction.

 

[makesends]

(Makesends: Carbon is quoting open theists here): "We believe that the bible presents an open view of God as living and active, involved in history, relating to us, and changing in relation to us.

This is something, particularly the notion of God changing, I see @JIM representing, though I'm pretty sure he would claim to not be of that ilk at all. God does not change; not only does he say that he does not change, but it is logically impossible to rightly characterize him as "changing", if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and self-existent. That he changes how we see him from day to day, or even how he presents himself and what he requires of us throughout history, is not the same thing; himself he does not change.

 

[Carbon]

This is something, particularly the notion of God changing, I see @JIM representing, though I'm pretty sure he would claim to not be of that ilk at all. God does not change; not only does he say that he does not change, but it is logically impossible to rightly characterize him as "changing", if he is omnipotent, omniscient, and self-existent. That he changes how we see him from day to day, or even how he presents himself and what he requires of us throughout history, is not the same thing; himself he does not change.

Yes, that is me quoting Open Theism, not my beliefs.

 

[Tambora]

But Open Theists believe, God only has knowledge of the past and present only. All future things are undetermined by God (which includes all future free choices and actions), since it has not happened and hence is not real cannot be an object of knowledge. The future, they say, is logically unknowable. And not even God can rightly be said to know what cannot in principle be known.

I don't see this as entirely correct.
God can know the future in that He can state that a thing will happen in the future and make it happen.
In other words, since God is the most knowledgeable, no matter how man reacts God can still figure out a way to cause it to happen.

I've heard it put this way, comparing it to a chess game:
Which is more confident of his power to win the game:

1. One that can say I will win because I already know every single move you will make in advance.​

2. One that can say it doesn't matter where you move, I will figure out a way to win anyway even without knowing your moves in advance.​

​

To me, #2 is more awesome than #1.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

open theism — A view on the nature of God that rejects classical attributes like omniscience or immutability in favor of positing a God who learns, adapts, takes risks, and modifies his plans in response to human actions. In this view, God's foreknowledge is limited by the uncertainties inherent in creating humanity with truly free will where even he does not know what free human agents will choose to do.

Douglas Mangum, The Lexham Glossary of Theology (Bellingham, WA: Lexham Press, 2014).

 

[makesends]

I don't see this as entirely correct.
God can know the future in that He can state that a thing will happen in the future and make it happen.
In other words, since God is the most knowledgeable, no matter how man reacts God can still figure out a way to cause it to happen.

I've heard it put this way, comparing it to a chess game:
Which is more confident of his power to win the game:

1. One that can say I will win because I already know every single move you will make in advance.​

2. One that can say it doesn't matter where you move, I will figure out a way to win anyway even without knowing your moves in advance.​

​

To me, #2 is more awesome than #1.

But here, like them, you present God as reactionary as opposed to us as causal, in both 1 and 2. God isn't playing chess against anyone, here. Our moves come by HIS design, and we think we are smart.

Truth is, God ESTABLISHES all fact. This is HIS design, construction, plan, from the beginning. And he will accomplish all he set out to do.

The fact that we act within his plan is part of his plan. We do so because it IS so. Every choice we make, whether in opposition or by obedience, fits perfectly. To say otherwise is to diminish the meaning of omnipotence.

 

[Carbon]

But here, like them, you present God as reactionary as opposed to us as causal, in both 1 and 2. God isn't playing chess against anyone, here. Our moves come by HIS design, and we think we are smart.

Truth is, God ESTABLISHES all fact. This is HIS design, construction, plan, from the beginning. And he will accomplish all he set out to do.

The fact that we act within his plan is part of his plan. We do so because it IS so. Every choice we make, whether in opposition or by obedience, fits perfectly. To say otherwise is to diminish the meaning of omnipotence.

Amen!

 

[Binyawmene]

This is Open Theism's concept of Divine providence.

Matt Slick did an interesting critique on Open Theism.

 

[Carbon]

Matt Slick did an interesting critique on Open Theism.

Nice. I'll have to check it out.

 

[Binyawmene]

I don't see this as entirely correct.
God can know the future in that He can state that a thing will happen in the future and make it happen.
In other words, since God is the most knowledgeable, no matter how man reacts God can still figure out a way to cause it to happen.

I've heard it put this way, comparing it to a chess game:
Which is more confident of his power to win the game:

1. One that can say I will win because I already know every single move you will make in advance.​

2. One that can say it doesn't matter where you move, I will figure out a way to win anyway even without knowing your moves in advance.​

​

To me, #2 is more awesome than #1.

I think Open Theism gives free-willers hubris and sense of entitlement. This is like a god that learns the future based on libertarian free will. The Bible says, “A person’s days are determined,” so in a broader application of being determined like sitting down and standing up, or going out and coming in, even in context of how long you will live, “you have decreed the number of his months and have set limits he cannot exceed” (Job 14:5). This is not an uncertain future, and those concepts only exist in philosophy and not a Biblical concept.

You have searched me, Lord, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely. (Psalms 139:1-4).​

Let’s use “sitting down” in reference to a predetermined future sense as our example. Did you happen sit down somewhere in the future? I’m positive that you will eventually sit down because it’s predetermined by God that you will. God knows timelessly all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. He knows timelessly that you will “sit down” and you will perform such actions. Sitting down is also a future action you will undertake, and that action must occur. Can your ‘free will’ prevent yourself from undertaking and performing that action of sitting down? Are you powerless? Is it impossible? If not, then physically demonstrate that you not never sit down.

Or here is another example: God learned about the future based on human free will choices of A and B. Such as, “A = Praying occurred at this particular time tomorrow” and “B = Praying did not occur at this particular time tomorrow.” That would be contradictory to hold such a position. Especially when Scriptures specifically states:

Matthew 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.​

​

Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely. (1 Kings 8:39. 1 John 3:20, Jeremiah 17:10, Revelation 2:18 and 23).​

How does your free will play in prayer? God knew completely ‘before’ I even thoughts words in my mind, and those words I will ask in prayer. It’s annoying that I can’t change what I will say without God knowing it, “not by anything I’ve done, am doing, or will do” it's going to be, what it be. Its certain to happen and inevitable. I don’t have the power to change future about those things I will ask from God. It’s impossible. God knows my thoughts, even when I’m carefully considering changing my living room, and after a bit of thought, mulling over a few alternatives. I decided to paint the walls and rearrange the furniture. I’ve changed the appearance of the living room. But I’ve failed to change what God already known what I’ve thought and what I decided to do. The future is known and inevitable. God preordained it to happen the way it did, and no possible future can occur.

 

[Tambora]

But here, like them, you present God as reactionary

We see God react to actions chosen throughout scripture.

God isn't playing chess against anyone, here.

hehe!
The analogy doesn't mean God is actually playing chess against anyone.

Our moves come by HIS design, and we think we are smart.

Anyone that thinks man is smarter than God is foolish.
But He doesn't have to know every move in advance to be smarter than anything else.

Truth is, God ESTABLISHES all fact. This is HIS design, construction, plan, from the beginning. And he will accomplish all he set out to do.

That what the analogy states ---- God can figure out a way to win no matter what moves man makes.

The fact that we act within his plan is part of his plan. We do so because it IS so. Every choice we make, whether in opposition or by obedience, fits perfectly. To say otherwise is to diminish the meaning of omnipotence.

Some will say God cannot lie, some will say God cannot die, etc.
Just because scripture says those things doesn't mean God is not omnipotent, if your perspective of omnipotent is how the Bible defines it.
God can state a future event will happen and make it happen without having to know in advance every action mankind makes.
He is intelligent enough to solve any problems mankind or spirit beings set in His way.

 

[makesends]

We see God react to actions chosen throughout scripture.



hehe!
The analogy doesn't mean God is actually playing chess against anyone.



Anyone that thinks man is smarter than God is foolish.
But He doesn't have to know every move in advance to be smarter than anything else.



That what the analogy states ---- God can figure out a way to win no matter what moves man makes.



Some will say God cannot lie, some will say God cannot die, etc.
Just because scripture says those things doesn't mean God is not omnipotent, if your perspective of omnipotent is how the Bible defines it.
God can state a future event will happen and make it happen without having to know in advance every action mankind makes.
He is intelligent enough to solve any problems mankind or spirit beings set in His way.

I think you still don't understand. If God does not cause, either directly or through means, precisely what comes to pass, then he is just another resident (like us) within a larger reality, and not after all God himself.

There is no fact or principle to which God must accommodate himself, that did not come from his causation. He is the "inventor" of very reality. Otherwise, he is not God.

 

[Tambora]

I think Open Theism gives free-willers hubris and sense of entitlement.

I lean towards open theism and don't feel I have a sense of entitlement.
How does believing God can solve any problems mankind or spirit beings set in His way make me intitled????

This is like a god that learns the future based on libertarian free will.

Scripture God wanted to see what Adam would name the animals.
Why would that mean that God learned names of animals????
I mean, God most likely has every word that could ever be spoken already in His vast vocabulary.

You have searched me, Lord, and you know me. You know when I sit and when I rise; you perceive my thoughts from afar. You discern my going out and my lying down; you are familiar with all my ways. Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely. (Psalms 139:1-4).​

Let’s use “sitting down” in reference to a predetermined future sense as our example. Did you happen sit down somewhere in the future? I’m positive that you will eventually sit down because it’s predetermined by God that you will. God knows timelessly all that has happened, is happening, and will happen. He knows timelessly that you will “sit down” and you will perform such actions. Sitting down is also a future action you will undertake, and that action must occur. Can your ‘free will’ prevent yourself from undertaking and performing that action of sitting down? Are you powerless? Is it impossible? If not, then physically demonstrate that you not never sit down.

Or here is another example: God learned about the future based on human free will choices of A and B. Such as, “A = Praying occurred at this particular time tomorrow” and “B = Praying did not occur at this particular time tomorrow.” That would be contradictory to hold such a position. Especially when Scriptures specifically states:

Matthew 6:8 Do not be like them, for your Father knows what you need before you ask him.​

​

Psalm 139:4 Before a word is on my tongue you, Lord, know it completely. (1 Kings 8:39. 1 John 3:20, Jeremiah 17:10, Revelation 2:18 and 23).​

How does your free will play in prayer? God knew completely ‘before’ I even thoughts words in my mind, and those words I will ask in prayer. It’s annoying that I can’t change what I will say without God knowing it, “not by anything I’ve done, am doing, or will do” it's going to be, what it be. Its certain to happen and inevitable. I don’t have the power to change future about those things I will ask from God. It’s impossible. God knows my thoughts, even when I’m carefully considering changing my living room, and after a bit of thought, mulling over a few alternatives. I decided to paint the walls and rearrange the furniture. I’ve changed the appearance of the living room. But I’ve failed to change what God already known what I’ve thought and what I decided to do. The future is known and inevitable. God preordained it to happen the way it did, and no possible future can occur.

Are you familiar with Hebrew verb tenses?

 

[Tambora]

I think you still don't understand. If God does not cause, either directly or through means, precisely what comes to pass, then he is just another resident (like us) within a larger reality, and not after all God himself.

There is no fact or principle to which God must accommodate himself, that did not come from his causation. He is the "inventor" of very reality. Otherwise, he is not God.

You limit God's omnipotence by claiming He can only predict a future event because He already knows in advance.
I say God can predict a future event without knowing or causing in advance every action that ever takes place because He is intelligent and powerful enough to hurdle any obstacle that any of His creation tries to throw in His way no matter how hard they try.

 

[makesends]

You limit God's omnipotence by claiming He can only predict a future event because He already knows in advance.

"He can only predict because He already knows?" I have not claimed that. It's not a question of what he can or cannot do. That whole way of thinking is based on our conceptions. It is not about knowing in advance, though we might characterize it that way. It is about what he is doing.

From the beginning, it is all God. We are incidental. He uses us, and our wills, and time, and any other fact or principles, but these are all HIS, made by him for his purposes. GOD did this. And our words and uses of words come from OUR perception --not his.

I say God can predict a future event without knowing or causing in advance every action that ever takes place because He is intelligent and powerful enough to hurdle any obstacle that any of His creation tries to throw in His way no matter how hard they try.

Then they came about by some other thing besides his creating and purposes. You have just made God subject to outside fact, which renders him less than omnipotent.

 

[Binyawmene]

I lean towards open theism and don't feel I have a sense of entitlement.
How does believing God can solve any problems mankind or spirit beings set in His way make me intitled????

Open Theism is centered upon two things.

1). God who exists in time and subjected to libertarian free will of human's choices.
a). The future is only known through the sequences of time periods.
b). Human choices deal the cards, and God play the hand he is dealt.
c). Tambora chose to respond to this thread, but God only knows it until after it happens.

2). Metaphoric expressions and Anthropomorphic expressions about God in the Bible.
a). God doesn't know the future. but yet, God is omniscient.
b). God takes risks, make mistakes, learns, searches, counts, changes his mind, etc.
c). And they view these expressions as being literal and the interpretation resulted into an uncertain future.

That's all it really amounts too. Nothing unique or cool about it.

Scripture God wanted to see what Adam would name the animals.
Why would that mean that God learned names of animals????
I mean, God most likely has every word that could ever be spoken already in His vast vocabulary.

Your example of God learning is very poor.

1. Adam is looking for a suitable helper.
2. God gave Adam stewardship role of the earth to signify his authority and dominion.

Genesis 1:28 God blessed them and said to them, “Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground.”​

​

Genesis 2:20 So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds in the sky and all the wild animals. But for Adam no suitable helper was found.​

Obviously, God's thoughts and ways is not the same as men's thoughts and ways. You should distinguish between what God naming creation with what men who names creation. For instance,

Psalms 147:4 He determines the number of the stars and calls them each by name.​

The metaphoric expression has God counting stars. If you don't take the figure of speech literal, then God is omniscient. But if you take the figure of speech in the literal sense, then God has to count stars, and the stars was not already known.

Are you familiar with Hebrew verb tenses?

I'm not a psychic and read minds. Say what you want to say and present your case.

Isaiah 41:21-24 “Present your case,” says the Lord. “Set forth your arguments,” says Jacob’s King. “Tell us, you idols, what is going to happen. Tell us what the former things were, so that we may consider them and know their final outcome. Or declare to us the things to come, tell us what the future holds, so we may know that you are gods. Do something, whether good or bad, so that we will be dismayed and filled with fear. But you are less than nothing and your works are utterly worthless; whoever chooses you is detestable.​

Your god can't. Because your god isn't omniscient.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Matt Slick did an interesting critique on Open Theism.

Is he still around CARM?

I forgot about his website.

Thanks for the reminder.

 

[makesends]

Is he still around CARM?

I forgot about his website.

Thanks for the reminder.

Never been there, though I've heard about it from several directions.

Worth lurking?

 

[Tambora]

Your god can't. Because your god isn't omniscient.

I'm done with people that try to claim that YHWH is not my God that I trust in.
I'll waste no more time with you.