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Objections To the Supralapsarian

Seems to me, decreeing things 'before' or 'after' anything is nonsensical in terms of a God who dwells in eternity, logical order notwithstanding.
 
Seems to me, decreeing things 'before' or 'after' anything is nonsensical in terms of a God who dwells in eternity, logical order notwithstanding.
Yep.
 
Seems to me, decreeing things 'before' or 'after' anything is nonsensical in terms of a God who dwells in eternity, logical order notwithstanding.

It is logically before or after, not chronologically. Does that make a difference? If not, how is it nonsensical?
 
I think God's purpose and plan creating the end result has everything to do with the ontology of at least the corporate members of Christ, but also the ontology of the individual members....
That is true and correct. However, the ontology of the corporate members of Christ, (or, more simply, Christ's body, the Church) is not dependent on sin (and therefore, not dependent on redemption of and salvation from sin).

Jesus is the foreknown sacrifice. Jesus is the resurrection and the life. In other words, because Jesus is foreknown as such his sacrifice is not dependent upon sin. That sounds odd to many ears so I will explain that a few sentences from now. Jesus did not say, "I will become the resurrection." He said He is the resurrection and the life. He was the resurrection and the life when he made that statement in John 14. That was long before his crucifixion, death and resurrection. In other words, he was the resurrection and the life before he resurrected. That is his ontology. That was his ontology when he existed in Eden as the tree of life. Jesus is the foreknown perfect sacrifice revealed in those last days (1 Pet. 1:20).

Humans were made 1) mortal, and 2) corruptible. The human mortality and corruptibility were both pre-disobedient conditions. They have absolutely nothing to do with sin. When a mortal person disobeys God, he or she then becomes dead in transgression. That death is different than physical mortality. The sinner is, in other words, twice-dead. The non-sinner is not dead in his or her sin(s), but s/he is still mortal. It is appointed for man to die once and then face judgment. Non-sinners face judgment dead only in physical mortality. Sinners face judgment twice dead. Christians face judgment thrice dead (physically mortal, transgressionally dead, and dead in Christ). On top of that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God. We might think Paul was referring to the sinful flesh and blood but for the fact he explicitly stated we were "sown corruptible/perishable" and mortal. That sowing cannot be a reference to the sinner buried in the grave because the sinner is corrupted, not merely corruptible. Had Paul stated we are sown corrupted then we'd read his comment to be a reference to the grave dead in sin, but that is not what he wrote. At what point was humanity corruptible and not yet corrupted? Prior to Genesis 3:6-7, that's when. Paul is referencing the garden, the original state in which humanity was created.


So Jesus came into the world to solve the problem of corruptibility, not just the problem of corruptedness. He solves both problems, not one or the other. Jesus comes into the world to solve the problem of flesh and blood not being able to inherit the kingdom - whether sinful flesh or not-sinful flesh. It is in resurrection that we are raised immortal and incorruptible. Had Adam and Eve eaten from the tree of life prior to the other tree they'd have lived forever (the inference being they'd never have disobeyed God). The moment they disobeyed God the privilege of partaking from the tree of life was withdrawn, but that is okay because Jesus was already foreknown as the perfect, blemish-free sacrifice that takes away the sins of the world, undoes the works) of the devil, and - as the only way to God - he is the sacrifice by which believers in his name receive transformation in him, in his resurrection, in the resurrection and life that is him.

This avoids the problem of making God's purpose and plan dependent on sin. The righteous God is not dependent on sin. The holy Law Maker is not dependent on lawlessness. The ever-faithful God is not dependent on faithlessness. Logically speaking, the doctrine of divine aseity precludes any dependency on God's part. And that is where both the supralapsarian and the infralapsarian err. They think there is a temporal sequence in eternity, and they think sin is salient to God's purpose and order of decision. Both models fall apart once God's dependency on sin is removed. Satan rebelled. God shrugged His shoulders and said, "Meh. I got that covered already." Adam disobeyed God and, again, God shrugged his shoulders and said, "That is deeply offense. That disobedience enslaves my beloved creatures made in My own image..... but I already have that covered."

Christ is not a contingency plan.
Now look here!! I invite you to correct me, and instead you make my point better than *I* do !!!
Thanks, but consider my post an affirmation of yours because no quarterback is great without a great front four ;).









I just blew through a pile of scripture so if anyone wants me to cite the various verses or passages upon which these comments are based, then just ask. I assume most of you recognize the references because you already know your Bible well enough to make those connections but I am happy to post the citations.
.
 
:unsure: ... that's deep
:unsure: ... in eternity where nothing changes as there is no creation or space .... :unsure: yet God has an eternal plan to create a temporal being in a temporal environment where God create rules of 'cause and effect' that will take place as facilitated by the creation of time. Within this environment there is created now a system to substantiate the existence of Supralapsarianism and infralapsarianism or whatever. In this environment man must accumulate knowledge and formulate/test hypotheses, often based on cause and effect per the rules set by the Almighty. We assume God doesn't change the rules save for the odd miracle to keep us humble.
In a similar fashion ... in God nothing corresponding to observation, comparison, generalization, deduction, processes of reasoning, intuition, exists; yet, God has created in men these methods by which men pass from one step to another, or the contemplation or conjecture of suppositions or theories by which we account for facts such as Supralapsarianism.

My head hurts ... I'm going to contemplate something more at my level ... how many sides there are on a coin. The eternal God has always known the answer even before facilitating the creation of a coin, I will have to figure it out and see if I concur.

*end of rambling*
Yep.

However, I would not say an environment is created form lapsarian viewpoints. I think both sides are mistaken. I am also not sure we can speak to human knowledge or the nature of the need for learning prior to Genesis 3:6-7. We have no idea what Adam and Eve knew in the sinless state except we know they possessed the ability to know by contrast and that faculty was forever lost in their moment of disobedience. As Schaeffer puts it, they were good and sinless and everything in the world around them was, likewise, good and sinless. They, therefore, had the ability to recognize that which was not-good simply because it was not good. They may or may not have recognized the not-good as evil, but they did know it was different. That is one of the reasons their disobedience is so grievous. Only Jesus has been the pure, unadulterated human who remained pure, unadulterated, good, unashamed, sinless, holy, righteous, faith-filled and faithful, etc. Humans were once made that way and none of us today know what that was like. Who knows what knowledge accompanied the good and sinless state?

It is brain-hurting to attempt to fathom eternity, but I have found a fairly simple construct helpful. Measures require a reference point. Up, down, north, east, etc. all need a reference point in order to have meaning and functional value. I used to be a backpacker and, having been lost in some wilderness more than once, benefitted from my always packing a compass. I have found my trail (or some trail, even if it wasn't the one for which I was looking) by being able to orienteer. That works only because there is a known magnetic fixed point. It helps a great deal to also have a map and know the declination of the map (because a person can get more lost if they haven't modified their position to factor in the degrees of declination.

In eternity God is the reference point and He is the only reference point by which all else is measured. He's the fixed point, the map, and the compass!

And I wonder if some of that was included in His image in which we were made :unsure:. Salvation is based on both being known by God and knowing God. There was a time in Eden when both conditions existed, and God walked with the humans He had made.
The eternal God has always known the answer even before facilitating the creation of a coin...
Exactly.
 
I just finished reading 'Dabney's solution to the lapsarian debate'. Basically the same. It's more elegant in it's writing, which would probably be more preferable to you guys. I'm more barbaric, but I get the gist of it. Makesends, you'll probably like this.

It might be worth starting a thread for comments on this alone. (At first skim-through, I thought Dabney to be talking at first of the lapsarian debate, but then he wasn't making sense. So I decided he must be talking about the concept of Divine Simplicity. So far, I only see him as using the notion that humans are capable of valid thought, in order to prove that their needful comprehension via "parts" and categorizing is valid, and thus proving that Divine Simplicity is not quite valid as philosophically posited. To me, he ignores the fact that regardless of how well it is promoted, that such a subject as Divine Simplicity is dealt with "as well as we can", and nowhere nearly infallibly. As with any other philosophical theological description of God's attributes, the writer always describes what he can 'as opposed to' the other attributes —if you will, "exaggerated for clarity"— ironically troubling for Simplicity, which claims that none of the Attributes oppose the others. That does not, however, defeat the notion.) But, like I said, to pursue this would be to deviate from the point of the OP.
 
This may be overly simplistic, but maybe that's the best way to see it. In layman's terms.

Timelessness, does not have decrees, it only has one eternal decree. There is no order, not in action or in thought in timelessness. The only thing that we can deduce from time about His eternal decree is the order in which He wanted His eternal decree to play out in time. Beyond that is only speculation. Time cannot tell us anything more about timelessness.

That's where I stop and say, that's all I need to know. We are called to live by the word of God. That's good enough for me.

I'm actually glad to hear that people are getting headaches from this. That means that I'm not the only one. Maybe that's the Holy Spirit trying to tell us something.

Dave
 
This may be overly simplistic, but maybe that's the best way to see it. In layman's terms.

Timelessness, does not have decrees, it only has one eternal decree. There is no order, not in action or in thought in timelessness. The only thing that we can deduce from time about His eternal decree is the order in which He wanted His eternal decree to play out in time. Beyond that is only speculation. Time cannot tell us anything more about timelessness.

That's where I stop and say, that's all I need to know. We are called to live by the word of God. That's good enough for me.

I'm actually glad to hear that people are getting headaches from this. That means that I'm not the only one. Maybe that's the Holy Spirit trying to tell us something.

Dave
That's a good way to see it, I think.

That there are details is not debated, but when the details emerge as though they were ends/beginnings of their own apart from the whole, then I say we've got a problem.

There are, as @Josheb showed, a certain amount of notice to be given some of the details, (in this case, Sin), not as proved theoretically to be (or not) causal (of Redemption), but as doctrinally NOT causal of Redemption.

If I understood him correctly, he agrees with me that Redemption is, as part of the whole council and decree of God, part of what it took for the Elect to become what God is making of them. But Sin is not. Though we can demonstrate that redemption would not happen apart from the fact of the need for redemption, by the decree of God concerning the whole, the redemption is necessary, but the sin incidental.

It is a little like the question of 'election unto reprobation' or 'double predestination' —what some people use to reject 'determinism'. That God has chosen only some for salvation, logically implies that he has chosen the rest for reprobation. But the notion that those were both equally his intention in creating would a huge mistake. His reason for creating can be said to be the producing of the members of Christ. The reprobation of the rest is only part of what it takes to accomplish that production.
 
If I understood him correctly, he agrees with me that Redemption is, as part of the whole council and decree of God, part of what it took for the Elect to become what God is making of them.
That's not quite what I am saying. What I am saying is that from the perspective of God in eternity the matter of sin did not factor into His will or purpose because the occasion of sin is irrelevant. The occasion of sin's occurrence was "already" addressed by his eternal (ie., pre-existing) plan. He certainly, omnisciently knew (er.... eternally knows) sin will occur once creational history proceeds or unfolds, but it is not something for which He had specifically to plan. The elect were/are going to be the elect no matter what did or did not happen. The elect is the finish point of the Uncaused Cause's first cause ;)...... and from the eternal pov both beginning, and the end (along with everything in between is a extra-temporal divine reality. We experience His will unfolding in time, but God is eternal, extra-temporal.
But Sin is not. Though we can demonstrate that redemption would not happen apart from the fact of the need for redemption, by the decree of God concerning the whole, the redemption is necessary, but the sin incidental.
Yep. (y)
 
It is logically before or after, not chronologically. Does that make a difference? If not, how is it nonsensical?

Timelessness, does not have decrees, it only has one eternal decree. There is no order, not in action or in thought in timelessness. The only thing that we can deduce from time about His eternal decree is the order in which He wanted His eternal decree to play out in time. Beyond that is only speculation. Time cannot tell us anything more about timelessness.
Would not that in effect do away with the infra/supra dealy wealys?
 
I doubt most atheists think that deeply if at all. If they ponder such things they probably rely on theories like the Big Bang Theory and assume the bright scientists are better equipped to answer such questions.
It takes more faith to believe that God does not exist than it does that He does exist.
 

I have read many works on this over the years and will admit I still cannot wrap my mind around it.

Out of all the works I have read, Boettner makes the most sense to me.

The highlighted is what stands out to me and I think I understand the thought.

Infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism

Among those who call themselves Calvinists there has been some difference of opinion as to the order of events in the Divine plan. The question here is, When the decrees of election and reprobation came into existence were men considered as fallen or as unfallen? Were the objects of these decrees contemplated as members of a sinful, corrupt mass, or were they contemplated merely as men whom God would create? According to the infralapsarian view the order of events was as follows: God proposed (1) to create; (2) to permit the fall; (3) to elect to eternal life and blessedness a great multitude out of this mass of fallen men, and to leave the others, as He left the Devil and the fallen angels, to suffer the just punishment of their sins; (4) to give His Son, Jesus Christ, for the redemption of the elect; and (5) to send the Holy Spirit to apply to the elect the redemption which was purchased by Christ. According to the supralapsarian view the order of events was: (1) to elect some creatable men (that is, men who were to be created) to life and to condemn others to destruction; (2) to create; (3) to permit the fall; (4) to send Christ to redeem the elect; and (5) to send the Holy Spirit to apply this redemption to the elect. The question then is as to whether election precedes or follows the fall.

One of the leading motives in the supralapsarian scheme is to emphasize the idea of discrimination and to push this idea into the whole of God’s dealings with men. We believe, however, that supralapsarianism over-emphasizes this idea. In the very nature of the case this idea cannot be consistently carried out, e. g., in creation, and especially in the fall. It was not merely some of the members of the human race who were objects of the decree to create, but all mankind, and that with the same nature. And it was not merely some men, but the entire race, which was permitted to fall. Supralapsarianism goes to as great an extreme on the one side as does universalism on the other. Only the infralapsarian scheme is self-consistent or consistent with other facts.

In regard to this difference Dr. Warfield writes: “The mere putting of the question seems to carry its answer with it. For the actual dealing with men which is in question, is, with respect to both classes alike, those who are elected and those who are passed by, conditioned on sin; we cannot speak of salvation any more than of reprobation without positing sin. Sin is necessarily precedent in thought, not indeed to the abstract idea of discrimination, but to the concrete instance of discrimination which is in question, a discrimination with regard to a destiny which involves either salvation or punishment. There must be sin in contemplation to ground a decree of salvation, as truly as a decree of punishment. We cannot speak of a decree discriminating between men with reference to salvation and punishment, therefore, without positing the contemplation of men as sinners as its logical prius.”1

And to the same effect Dr. Charles Hodge says: “It is a clearly revealed Scriptural principle that where there is no sin there is no condemnation.… He hath mercy upon one and not on another, according to His own good pleasure, because all are equally unworthy and guilty … Everywhere, as in Romans 1:24, 26, 28, reprobation is declared to be judicial, founded upon the sinfulness of its object. Otherwise it could not be a manifestation of the justice of God.”1

It is not in harmony with the Scripture ideas of God that innocent men, men who are not contemplated as sinners, should be foreordained to eternal misery and death. The decrees concerning the saved and the lost should not be looked upon as based merely on abstract sovereignty. God is truly sovereign, but this sovereignty is not exercised in an arbitrary way. Rather it is a sovereignty exercised in harmony with His other attributes, especially His justice, holiness, and wisdom. God cannot commit sin; and in that respect He is limited, although it would be more accurate to speak of His inability to commit sin as a perfection. There is, of course, mystery in connection with either system; but the supralapsarian system seems to pass beyond mystery and into contradiction.

The Scriptures are practically infralapsarian,—Christians are said to have been chosen “out of” the world, John 15:19; the potter has a right over the clay, “from the same lump,” to make one part a vessel unto honor, and another unto dishonor, Rom. 9:21; and the elect and the non-elect are regarded as being originally in a common state of misery. Suffering and death are uniformly represented as the wages of sin. The infralapsarian scheme naturally commends itself to our ideas of justice and mercy; and it is at least free from the Arminian objection that God simply creates some men in order to damn them. Augustine and the great majority of those who have held the doctrine of Election since that time have been and are infralapsarians,—that is, they believe that it was from the mass of fallen men that some were elected to eternal life while others were sentenced to eternal death for their sins. There is no Reformed confession which teaches the supralapsarian view; but on the other hand a considerable number do explicitly teach the infralapsarian view, which thus emerges as the typical form of Calvinism. At the present day it is probably safe to say that not more than one Calvinist in a hundred holds the supralapsarian view. We are Calvinists strongly enough, but not “high Calvinists.” By a “high Calvinist” we mean one who holds the supralapsarian view.

It is of course true that in either system the sovereign choice of God in election is stressed and salvation in its whole course is the work of God. Opponents usually stress the supralapsarian system since it is the one which without explanation is more likely to conflict with man’s natural feelings and impressions. It is also true that there are some things here which cannot be put into the time mould,—that these events are not in the Divine mind as they are in ours, by a succession of acts, one after another, but that by one single act God has at once ordained all these things. In the Divine mind the plan is a unit, each part of which is designed with reference to a state of facts which God intended should result from the other parts. All of the decrees are eternal. They have a logical, but not a chronological, relationship. Yet in order for us to reason intelligently about them we must have a certain order of thought. We very naturally think of the gift of Christ in sancification and glorification as following the decrees of the creation and the fall.

In regard to the teaching of the Westminster Confession, Dr. Charles Hodge makes the following comment: “Twiss, the Prolocutor of that venerable body (the Westminster Assembly), was a zealous supralapsarian; the great majority of its members, however, were on the other side. The symbols of that Assembly, while they clearly imply the infralapsarian view, were yet so framed as to avoid offence to those who adopted the supralapsarian theory. In the ‘Westminster Confession,’ it is said that God appointed the elect unto eternal life, and the rest of mankind, God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of His own will, whereby He extendeth or withholdeth mercy as He pleaseth, for the glory of His sovereign power over His creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of His glorious justice.’ It is here taught that those whom God passes by are ‘the rest of mankind’; not the rest of ideal or possible men, but the rest of those human beings who constitute mankind, or the human race. In the second place, the passage quoted teaches that the non-elect are passed by and ordained to wrath ‘for their sin.’ This implies that they were contemplated as sinful before this foreordination to judgment. The infralapsarian view is still more obviously assumed in the answer to the 19th and 20th questions in the ‘Shorter Catechism.’ It is there taught that all mankind by the fall lost communion with God, and are under His wrath and curse, and that God out of His mere good pleasure elected some (some of those under His wrath and curse), unto everlasting life. Such has been the doctrine of the great body of Augustinians from the time of Augustine to the present day.”1


1 The Plan of Salvation, p. 28.

1 Systematic Theology, II, p. 318.

1 Systematic Theology, II, p. 317.

Loraine Boettner, The Reformed Doctrine of Predestination (Phillipsburg, NJ: Presbyterian and Reformed Publishing Company, 1932), 126–130.
 
Would not that effectively do away with the infra/supra dealy-wealies?

I don't think so? His point seems to be about the timelessness of God. However, by definition, that is a denial of a chronological priority. "The only thing that we can deduce from time about his eternal decree is the order in which he wanted his eternal decree to play out in time."

But that corresponds with what I said anyway: "It is logically before or after, not chronologically."

So, my question to you remains: "Does that make a difference? If not, how is it nonsensical?"
 
"It is logically before or after, not chronologically."
'logically', whose? Another man made construct, so we can attempt to comprehend the incomprehensiveness of God, It's like reverse condescension. I'm not buying it.
 
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Does that make a difference?
No. There is no “logical” order or “chronological” order with GOD (Omni-everything and extra-temporal).

If not, how is it nonsensical?
It is ‘nonsensical’ to speak of a God that exists outside of the created dimension of TIME being limited by temporal properties like “which came before and which came after”. Do we seriously ponder “WHERE in SPACE” God is? Then why sweat WHEN in TIME God was influenced by.


Moving away from chronological and leaning into logical order … did the INFINITE mind of God really need to sit down and ponder out the logical details of His will/plan, perhaps working through several drafts to get it just right … perfect? No, that is silly. God’s WILL is His will. There is no true logical order to it, because it is complete and eternal and infinite and His. It is over anthropomorphizing to ascribe an order of working out thoughts, like a human mind, to the mind of God.

(I just felt like taking a shot at answering those questions. You can ignore it if you want, it was just for my amusement.)
 
Josheb said:
the finish point of the Uncaused Cause's first cause
Got it! I'll have to remember that one.
See, here's a bone of contention in terminology, between @Josheb and myself. The uncaused causer didn't have a first cause. He had many first results, all of which, to my knowledge became what I might call second(ary) causes. GOD was the first cause. But no matter how I put that, he keeps saying the Uncaused cause (God, obviously —on that we agree), had a first cause. Yet in all this time I haven't understood from him just what that First Cause might be.

We've gone around on that enough that I find it amusing anymore, like brothers bickering for the fun of it. But he may be able to say something about it here that won't just be pursuing an off-topic debate. Maybe what he has to say about it would make his point concerning the OP more plain.

Almost bothers me that he seems to agree with my view on this thread. GOT to be some way we aren't understanding one-another! :ROFLMAO: :unsure:
 
DialecticSkeptic said:
"It is logically before or after, not chronologically."
'logically', whose? Another man made construct, so we can attempt to comprehend the incomprehensiveness of God, It's like reverse condescension. I'm not buying it.
"Logically before" (or after) only means by sequence of causation, or some other way for us to consider a matter, in sequence of thought. —Not necessarily in temporal chronology.

In a way, you are right. Any of our assessments are for the use of our minds, and not necessarily relevant to the facts. I hope you've been reading and understanding @Josheb in this thread. He shows where a dip into the relevance of sin and redemption are differently relevant to any good consideration of sequence, via logical necessity. Creation logically necessarily includes the decree of redemption, but as much because God said so —i.e. that's what happened so obviously God intended it— as part of the whole ball of wax; but also, it is endemic to the nature of the end product God had in mind. Sin, on the other hand, while we might want to say that it too is logically necessary, (since without it, there would be no redemption) —sin, I say, is not endemic to the nature of the end product God had in mind when the whole story is told.

So there are some relevant matters to be found in the study of lapsarianism. The minds of better men than you and I find it worth differing over, and apparently not by meaning to consider the 'whole ball of wax' unimportant, nor meaning to imply that their view is THE way God did things, but only that it is the best way for them to consider the order and reason of things. I think they are wrong, but... nonsensical is a bit strong.
 
"Logically." Whose? Another man-made construct, so we can attempt to comprehend the incomprehensiveness of God. It's like reverse condescension. I'm not buying it.

First, to claim that logic is a man-made construct is to suggest that man created logic, but that's as unintelligible as saying that man created mathematical truths like 2 + 2 = 4. Logic, like mathematics (which is crucially related) is not something man created but rather discovered in the very fabric of reality. Logical principles, such as the law of noncontradiction (A ≠ ¬A), are universally valid and necessary. If logic reflects the structure of reality, and if God is the ultimate reality (as he surely is), then the laws of logic are grounded in his unchanging, self-consistent nature. Paul affirms in 2 Timothy 2:13 that God "cannot deny himself," which means he cannot act contrary to who he is. He is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. Because God is necessarily self-consistent and unchanging (Mal 3:6, Heb 13:8), contradictions cannot exist within him. The Christian tradition has long affirmed that logical truths exist eternally in the nature and attributes of God. Augustine, Anselm, and Aquinas all recognized this. As Augustine observed, "The validity of logical sequences is not a thing devised by men but is observed and noted by them, that they may be able to learn and teach it; for it exists eternally in the reason of things and has its origin with God."

Second, you have shifted your posture. Initially, you claimed that a logical order is "nonsensical" when applied to a God who dwells in eternity. Now, you simply say that you're "not buying it." The former is not self-evidently true, so I would need to see the argument that led you to that conclusion. The latter, however, is merely an autobiographical detail—your personal skepticism—which does nothing to my position or argument.
 
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