Methodist Communion Is Idolatry

[ChristB4us]

The United Methodist View of Communion

"Throughout the history of Christianity, church leaders have debated how best to understand the “Holy Mystery” of the Lord’s Supper — especially whether and how Christ is present in the meal. “The Wesleyan tradition affirms the reality of Christ’s presence, although it does not claim to be able to explain it fully,” says the denomination’s statement on the sacrament, This Holy Mystery: A United Methodist Understanding of Holy Communion. " ~~` end of quote
What is made by men's hands and believes to hold the presence of a god is idolatry.
1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for past sins but still they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus keeping them idols in that regard. So are the Methodists.

 

[Eleanor]

The United Methodist View of Communion

"Throughout the history of Christianity, church leaders have debated how best to understand the “Holy Mystery” of the Lord’s Supper — especially whether and how Christ is present in the meal. “The Wesleyan tradition affirms the reality of Christ’s presence, although it does not claim to be able to explain it fully,” says the denomination’s statement on the sacrament, This Holy Mystery: A United Methodist Understanding of Holy Communion. " ~~` end of quote
What is made by men's hands and believes to hold the presence of a god is idolatry.
1 Corinthians 10: 14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he? 23 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

The problem with Lutherans is that Martin Luther did not get rid of all things Catholicism. Lutherans may not believe that communion is for making atonement for past sins but still they believe Christ's Presence is in the bread and the wine thus keeping them idols in that regard. So are the Methodists.

In light of the fellowship sacrifice/offering,
where only the suet and kidneys were burned on the altar on top of the daily burnt offering,
and the remainder of the slain animal was eaten in a fellowship meal by the Israelite and the priest who offered it (Lev 3:15, 7:15-18, 19:5-8).
the priest eating his portion in the temple courtyard,
wherein the offerer participated in the benefits of the sacrifice (covering of sin and fellowship with priest who offered it),
I suggest that the Lord's Supper is that NT sacrificial meal on the sacrificed body and blood of Christ, wherein through faith we participate in the benefits of his sacrifice (1 Co 10:16-17).
And I note, that as in the OT fellowship sacrifice/offering, the meal is not on the living flesh of the sacrifice, but on the slaightered flesh of the sacrifice; i.e., no living "presence" therein.

 

[ChristB4us]

In light of the fellowship sacrifice/offering,
where only the suet and kidneys were burned on the altar on top of the daily burnt offering,
and the remainder of the slain animal was eaten in a fellowship meal by the Israelite and the priest who offered it (Lev 3:15, 7:15-18, 19:5-8).
the priest eating his portion in the temple courtyard,
wherein the offerer participated in the benefits of the sacrifice (covering of sin and fellowship with priest who offered it),
I suggest that the Lord's Supper is that NT sacrificial meal on the sacrificed body and blood of Christ, wherein through faith we participate in the benefits of his sacrifice (1 Co 10:16-17).
And I note, that as in the OT fellowship sacrifice/offering, the meal is not on the living flesh of the sacrifice, but on the slaightered flesh of the sacrifice; i.e., no living "presence" therein.

Do you defer from taking communion only in remembrance of Him if it is considered as receiving a sacrifice?

 

[Eleanor]

Do you defer from taking communion only in remembrance of Him if it is considered as receiving a sacrifice?

I take communion as they partook of the sacrificial meal in the OT and at the institution of the NT sacrificial meal at the Lord's Supper, as
1) participating (1 Co 10:16) in the ongoing benefits of that sacrifice, including fellowship with the priest who offered it,
2) a remembrance, and
3) proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes (the gospel).

 

[David1701]

I asked a full preterist why he partook of the Lord's Supper since it proclaimed the Lord's death til He comes since according to him He had already come and wasn't coming again.

I cannot recall the answer but it was in the sense of an angry retort, he hadn't considered it before.

That's a good question. Full preterism has some serious problems with the end of Revelation as well.

 

[ChristB4us]

I take communion as they partook of the sacrificial meal in the OT and at the institution of the NT sacrificial meal at the Lord's Supper, as

1) participating (1 Co 10:16) in the ongoing benefits of that sacrifice, including fellowship with the priest who offered it,

Protestant churches that have come out of the Catholic Church have not done away with everything that is Catholicism. Not every church was Catholic as some churches were apart from the Catholic Church way before the Protestants has come out of her.

Even Presbyterian churches began communion service with "We come into His presence today ..." which is a lie since He is in us and with us always and so denying Him as being in us every time they take communion. Of course, they would declare that they are not walking away from His Presence after communion, but it goes to point that is equally true and that is there is no coming into His Presence at communion either.

2) a remembrance, and
3) proclaiming the Lord's death until he comes (the gospel).

Remembering the Lord's death in what He has done for us is why it cannot be seen as continuing communion as a sacrificial meal in reaping the "benefits" of said sacrificial meal when the benefit has been reaped for why it is to be done in remembrance of Him.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This is what we are taking communion for to remember the Lord's death in what He has accomplished thus no further benefit to reap.

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

We should not even use the word "sacrament' in making the bread & wine more than what it is; symbolic reminder of what He has done and therefore this is why the Bible does not identify communion as "holy" communion but the words of the RCC is responsible for that mentality for why this forum should be about proving everything by the scriptures; hence the New Reformation in getting believers ready for the Bridegroom.

We can all agree that the RCC created the Eucharist and the Mass to enslave the believers to a system of works to keep them coming to the RCC for which I claim it is for insuring their weekly revenue. Other Protestant churches needs to wake up before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[Eleanor]

Protestant churches that have come out of the Catholic Church have not done away with everything that is Catholicism. Not every church was Catholic as some churches were apart from the Catholic Church way before the Protestants has come out of her.
Even Presbyterian churches began communion service with "We come into His presence today ..." which is a lie since He is in us and with us always and so denying Him as being in us every time they take communion. Of course, they would declare that they are not walking away from His Presence after communion, but it goes to point that is equally true and that is there is no coming into His Presence at communion either.
Remembering the Lord's death in what He has done for us is why it cannot be seen as continuing communion as a sacrificial meal in reaping the "benefits" of said sacrificial meal when the benefit has been reaped for why it is to be done in remembrance of Him.

Christ has purchased more than just remission of sin. He has purchased it all.

1 Corinthians 6:19 What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? 20 For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.

This is what we are taking communion for to remember the Lord's death in what He has accomplished thus no further benefit to reap.

You may not be reaping any more benefits by Christ's death but I sure am, in particular, enablement by his Spirit to walk in obedience, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

Matthew 12:35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things. 36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment. 37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

We should not even use the word "sacrament' in making the bread & wine more than what it is; symbolic reminder of what He has done and therefore this is why the Bible does not identify communion as "holy" communion but the words of the RCC is responsible for that mentality for why this forum should be about proving everything by the scriptures; hence the New Reformation in getting believers ready for the Bridegroom.

We can all agree that the RCC created the Eucharist and the Mass to enslave the believers to a system of works to keep them coming to the RCC for which I claim it is for insuring their weekly revenue. Other Protestant churches needs to wake up before the Bridegroom comes.

 

[ChristB4us]

Christ has purchased more than just remission of sin. He has purchased it all.

You may not be reaping any more benefits by Christ's death but I sure am, in particular, enablement by his Spirit to walk in obedience, which leads to righteousness leading to holiness (Ro 6:16-19).

By His grace by His help, He is enabling me to abide in Him and His words in following Him as His disciple, but there is no benefit to reap from having communion as it is not a sacrifice but a reminder of what He has done by His death.

 

[Eleanor]

By His grace by His help, He is enabling me to abide in Him and His words in following Him as His disciple, but there is no benefit to reap from having communion as it is not a sacrifice but a reminder of what He has done by His death.

The OT patterns of sacrifice present otherwise.

 

[ChristB4us]

The OT patterns of sacrifice present otherwise.

Yet it is very important that communion does not follow after that OT pattern of sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:1For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? because that the worshippers once purged should have had no more conscience of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a remembrance again made of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins. 5 Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: 6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. 8 Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law; 9 Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. 10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 2 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before,
For a saved believer, that foundation has been laid by Jesus Christ, the chief cornerstone, by that one time offering for sin for how we are sanctified forever as saved by believing in Him for why there is no more offering for sin nor need for "another" sacrifice to receive after that for why communion is to be done only in remembrance of Him in proclaiming the Lord's death for what He has done; and not what He is doing as if ongoing through that communion.

This is the sin that Paul is warning believers about is after having that knowledge that there is no more offering for sin and yet the Mass and how Protestants coming out of the RCC are still clinging to words and phrases that originated from that evil system of works must be purged away as they cannot see communion as an ongoing thing like the O.T. patterns of sacrifice presents.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people. 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

Those who refuse to repent are still His people but God will avenge Himself on those that use communion to deny what He has done as if it was an ongoing thing like in the O.T. patterns of sacrifice.

It is better to trust Jesus Christ as your Good Shepherd in following Him rather than a church that has not fully done away with the dead works of Catholicism. So go to Jesus in prayer and ask Him for help to see if there be any iniquity that you need to repent of because you may be blind to it.

I know I was blind to what the church had taught me because I could not believe they would have taught me wrong that God would judge me for and so I thank the Lord for helping me to not accept everything at face value but prove all things by Him and His words as kept in the KJV.

 

[Eleanor]

Yet it is very important that communion does not follow after that OT pattern of sacrifice.

Christ's sacrifice followed after the pattern of OT sacrifice, and the NT sacrificial meal follows after the pattern of the OT sacrificial meal (Lev 3:15, 7:15-18, 19:5-8).

 

[ChristB4us]

Christ's sacrifice followed after the pattern of OT sacrifice, and the NT sacrificial meal follows after the pattern of the OT sacrificial meal (Lev 3:15, 7:15-18, 19:5-8).

Provide N.T. scriptures to that effect because I have provided enough scriptures in post # 11 to reprove what you are applying communion for.

 

[Eleanor]

Provide N.T. scriptures to that effect because I have provided enough scriptures in post # 11 to reprove what you are applying communion for.

Lk 22:19-21.

The NT Lord's Supper is what Jesus says it is in the above, and which is a correspondence to the OT sacrificial meal.

 

[ChristB4us]

Lk 22:19-21.

The NT Lord's Supper is what Jesus says it is in the above, and which is a correspondence to the OT sacrificial meal.

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Seeing how this took place before His crucifixion is why you should only see it as symbolic of His coming death on the cross.

They had the Passover meal and then He did that with the bread & the wine as symbolic of His coming death on the cross. You are not having the actual Passover meal at communion and so you should not apply that bread and wine as that sacrificial meal either.

 

[Eleanor]

Luke 22:19 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. 20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you. 21 But, behold, the hand of him that betrayeth me is with me on the table.

Seeing how this took place before His crucifixion is why you should only see it as symbolic of His coming death on the cross.

Because he didn't say it was a representation or a symbol.
He said it was in actuality, as real as the manna from heaven (Jn 6:48),
which when they questioned him, he offered no other explanation than to repeat exactly what he said (Jn 6:52-58),
which they could not accept, turned back and no longer followed him (Jn 6:59-66),
which still did not cause him to unsay what he had said.

They had the Passover meal and then He did that with the bread & the wine as symbolic of His coming death on the cross.

Perhaps you could explain this symbolism of bread and wine equaling the cross.

 

[ChristB4us]

Because he didn't say it was a representation or a symbol.
He said it was in actuality, as real as the manna from heaven (Jn 6:48),
which when they questioned him, he offered no other explanation than to repeat exactly what he said (Jn 6:52-58),
which they could not accept, turned back and no longer followed him (Jn 6:59-66),
which still did not cause him to unsay what he had said.

Perhaps you could explain this symbolism of bread and wine equaling the cross.

John 6:30-onward was never about communion when John 6:35 would refute that application because then you would only take communion once to never hunger nor thirst for it again. It was about His coming crucifixion that by coming to & believing in Him is how you are saved.

 

[Eleanor]

John 6:30-onward was never about communion when John 6:35 would refute that application because then you would only take communion once to never hunger nor thirst for it again.

It's not about hunger and thirst, it's about on-gong nourishment, remembrance and proclamation of the gospel.

It was about His coming crucifixion that by coming to & believing in Him is how you are saved.

 

[ChristB4us]

It's not about hunger and thirst, it's about on-gong nourishment, remembrance and proclamation of the gospel.

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

This proves you applying anything from that chapter as if Jesus was talking about communion is wrong. He was talking about salvation by coming to and believing in Him.

 

[Eleanor]

John 6:35 And Jesus said unto them, I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall never hunger; and he that believeth on me shall never thirst.

And do those who come to participate in the Lord's Supper ever hunger and thirst because of lack of spiritual nourishment?

 

[ChristB4us]

And do those who come to participate in the Lord's Supper ever hunger and thirst because of lack of spiritual nourishment?

Paul rebuked such a thing and told people to eat at home and not use communion for that purpose.

1 Corinthians 11:20 When ye come together therefore into one place, this is not to eat the Lord's supper. 21 For in eating every one taketh before other his own supper: and one is hungry, and another is drunken. 22 What? have ye not houses to eat and to drink in? or despise ye the church of God, and shame them that have not? what shall I say to you? shall I praise you in this? I praise you not. 23 For I have received of the Lord that which also I delivered unto you, that the Lord Jesus the same night in which he was betrayed took bread: 24 And when he had given thanks, he brake it, and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance of me. 25 After the same manner also he took the cup, when he had supped, saying, this cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink it, in remembrance of me. 26 For as often as ye eat this bread, and drink this cup, ye do shew the Lord's death till he come.

27 Wherefore whosoever shall eat this bread, and drink this cup of the Lord, unworthily, shall be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of that bread, and drink of that cup. 29 For he that eateth and drinketh unworthily, eateth and drinketh damnation to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this cause many are weak and sickly among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we should not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened of the Lord, that we should not be condemned with the world. 33 Wherefore, my brethren, when ye come together to eat, tarry one for another. 34 And if any man hunger, let him eat at home; that ye come not together unto condemnation. And the rest will I set in order when I come.

When taking communion to eat to get filled rather than doing it in remembrance of Him, this is rebuked by Paul and so I cannot see how you can apply that to mean anything else without blurring the line of this rebuke here.