Lapsarianism

[ReverendRV]

The below was a question asked elsewhere...

Good question to ask, as prompted from a chat with a Calvinist:

Why did God predestine some to hell (or for the Single Predestinarians - why did God ban some from heaven) before the foundation of the world? Did He look at the corridors of time and He foresaw/foreknew their actions/decisions and did His predestinations based on those actions/decisions?

Here's your opportunity Calvinists, please share us the true teaching of Calvinism, so we dont misrepresent you. Thanks...

My first response...

Why? Because Infralapsarianism is True. God Elected some of Us from the same Lump of Fallen Clay. This means God can't be said to be a Monster for Passing Over some people and Condemning them; because God waits until after the Fall before he Chooses. Because of the Fall, we're Condemned already. ~ If God Elected a limited number of people from an Unfallen Adam, IE an Unfallen Lump of Clay; then God would be a Monster for Passing over some people. But God Chooses the Elect from a Fallen Lump of Clay wearing a Fig Leaf, from Adam after he knew he was Naked. God is not Culpable for sending anyone who suffers from the Curse of Original Sin to Hell; such as people who are Cursed with Pain in Childbirth. Original Sin exists; look to the sweating of the brow for proof of it...

Saint Paul suggests God has the Right to do this, without looking down the Coridors of Time; without our Running or Willing to do Good or Bad, but due to his Mercy...

 

[prism]

Why would God be restricted to looking down the 'corridors of time' when 'time' is part of the creation?

 

[ReverendRV]

Why would God be restricted to looking down the 'corridors of time' when 'time' is part of the creation?

God's not restricted from doing that, right?

Likewise, God isn't restricted from making Decrees; right?

For now, I'm going to keep this Thread centered about Lapsarianism; I hope you don't Mind. Feel free to start a Thread...

 

[prism]

God's not restricted from doing that, right?

Likewise, God isn't restricted from making Decrees; right?

For now, I'm going to keep this Thread centered about Lapsarianism; I hope you don't Mind. Feel free to start a Thread...

Sorry, when it comes to infra and supra, my dyslexia kicks in.
Which position are you taking?

 

[ReverendRV]

Sorry, when it comes to infra and supra, my dyslexia kicks in.
Which position are you taking?

Infralapsarianism...

Keep reading...

 

[ReverendRV]

I think we have discussed this before. Infra - IMO is a desperate attempt of someone (I am not sure who and when) to sugarcoat the ugly side of Calvinism. But Calvinism's Unconditional Election/Predestination - is clearly "before the foundation of the world" (misusing Eph 1:4 as support). So, INFRA has no room in genuine Calvinism. Even the word "PREdestination" should preclude any suggestion of INFRA. At any rate - pls clarify - are you saying that God predestined some to hell because of sin?

No; Adam Destined All to Hell because of his Sin. Then God intervened to Elect some of the Condemned...

In Provisionism, God intervened to Elect some of the Condemned too...

 

[ReverendRV]

So you dont believe in Predestination/Unconditional Election before the foundation of the world?

I do; but I also believe in Adam's Predestinating us as our Federal Head. God Elected some from a Fallen Lump of Clay: before they did anything Good to deserve it, or before they did anything Bad to not deserve it; but God Chose after Adam did something Bad not to deserve it. God's Election follows Adam's representation...

So Infralapsarianism agrees with Provisionism; God Condemned Adam after his Sin, not before it. God's Election of Adam occured before Adam was Created; before he did anything Good to not deserve it; before he Ran and before he Willed. Was Adam's Election to Service? If so, he failed; right?

 

[ReverendRV]

What do you understand by "before the foundation" of the world? Isnt that before Adam? Also, your statement "God Elected some from a Fallen Lump of Clay; before they did anything Good to deserve it, or before they did anything Bad to not deserve it"- seems to support "before Adam". Also, it seems to debunk your view of INFRA (predestination after the fall). Pls clarify once again - do you believe in predestination before Adam/before fall/before the foundation of the world OR AFTER?

Both Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism occur in the Mind of God before Creation. They both have God Electing before the Foundation of the World. Their difference is whether the Electing Logically occurs before or after the Fall...

 

[ReverendRV]

So - supra and infra are meaningless then? Why did you inject them into the discussion? Let's go back to the issue - why do you think God predestined some to hell? Is it only by His sovereign determinism and nothing else? Or is it because of future, foreseen sin?

Infralapsarianism doesn't teach that God Predestined some to Hell; that's Supralapsarianism. The reason I raise Infralapsarianism is because God Elects people from a Lump of Clay, that if Original Sin is true, deserves Condemnation due to the Fall. According to Saint Paul, Passing Over the Condemned is God's Right; making them to be Vessels of Wrath is his Right...

 

[prism]

It's hard to get over the hump, 'Since God is eternal, how can there be any 'before or after'?
What do you mean by logical order? (From man's view?)

 

[ReverendRV]

It was you who said "both Supralapsarianism and Infralapsarianism" which is very strange - coz they are opposite one another. Anyway - are you now saying that God predestined some hell due to sin?

Both claim to occur in the Mind before the Foundation of the World. This is not the difference between the two; the difference is whether the Electing Logically occurs before or after the Fall...

Predestination and Election are two different Categories. Predestination occurs before Election...

 

[ReverendRV]

So when was predestination decided? When was election decided? What was the criteria for each?

Predestination broadly refers to anything that God Ordains to take place. For example, he "Predestined" the Crucifixion (Acts 4:28). Election refers broadly to the Act of Choosing. As the Bible uses the word in regards to God's Choices, it sometimes pertains to God's Choice of Israel as his People. Predestination includes more than Election, such as the Fall. If Election occurs after the Fall, such as taught in Infralapsarianism; God's Predestining the Fall, Logically occurs first...

God Predestined his Election of Saints. Predestination can't be separated from his Election, no more than the Cross can be separated from Predestination. This means that if Infralapsarianism is True, it was Predestined. Thus God making Vessels of Wrath from Fallen Clay was also Predestined; but it's his Right to use Fallen Clay for this. The question arises; "But did God HAVE to Make them Vessels at all?". Yes; because God is Just. We often hear, "If a Judge let someone off, would he be a Good Judge?". Adam of his own Will, Procreated everyone God Created; All are Objects of Wrath due to Procreation. Did God play a part in forming us in the Womb? Thus God is Obligated to make us into Vessels; for something or the other...

 

[ReverendRV]

It's hard to get over the hump, 'Since God is eternal, how can there be any 'before or after'?
What do you mean by logical order? (From man's view?)

Logical Order is Timeless, since God is Timeless; though Logical Order is still Sequential because the Mind of God is Sequential...

A short discussion on this is okay, but let's not get lost...

 

[David1701]

No; Adam Predestined All to Hell because of his Sin. Then God intervened to Elect some of the Condemned...

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

1) Adam did not predestine anyone to hell. His sin meant that we are all sinners and all guilty, which is not the same thing at all.

2) God did not intervene, Adam having fallen already, since the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world (i.e. before Adam fell).

3) God's plan to send Christ to the cross was also made before Adam fell and that plan included laying down his life for his sheep (not everyone).

 

[ReverendRV]

I'm sorry, but this is nonsense.

1) Adam did not predestine anyone to hell. His sin meant that we are all sinners and all guilty, which is not the same thing at all.

2) God did not intervene, Adam having fallen already, since the elect were chosen from the foundation of the world (i.e. before Adam fell).

3) God's plan to send Christ to the cross was also made before Adam fell and that plan included laying down his life for his sheep (not everyone).

So you support Supralapsarianism?

 

[David1701]

So you support Supralapsarianism?

I support what the Bible states: we were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world; and, that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[ReverendRV]

I support what the Bible states: we were chosen, in Christ, before the foundation of the world; and, that Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Cool...

Do you recommend I edit that Post to say Adam Destined; instead of Predestined?