Justification by faith alone

[JIM]

Jim, nice try, but that is simply not so.

First, I'm not confuse as to what Paul meant by works, or works of the law, either one, they mean the same. Works/works of the law as defined by God's word is any work whereby man has an "active part in"~ coming from man.

Sorry Red, I couldn't let that go by. Jesus, Himself, has proven you wrong. In John 6:29, Jesus declares that faith, belief in God, is a work. That was in answer to the question raised by the crowd, namely, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" The "we do" is certainly something that they would have an "active part in". And Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. So clearly the works that Paul speaks of in passages such as Ephesians 2:9 is not the same as the work as Jesus spoke about in John 6:29. Paul definitely distinguishes between believing in God as something we have an "active part in", from works of law.

 

[Eleanor]

Sorry Red, I couldn't let that go by. Jesus, Himself, has proven you wrong. In John 6:29, Jesus declares that faith, belief in God, is a work. That was in answer to the question raised by the crowd, namely, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" The "we do" is certainly something that they would have an "active part in". And Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. So clearly the works that Paul speaks of in passages such as Ephesians 2:9 is not the same as the work as Jesus spoke about in John 6:29. Paul definitely distinguishes between believing in God as something we have an "active part in", from works of law.

Work is a performance. There is nothing to perform in faith. Saving faith is apart from performance; i.e., works.

And when it comes to works, Paul spoke of both "works of the law" in response to the Judaizers, and simply "works" in response to everything else.
We see this in his presentation of Abraham as the model of righteousness by faith, where he denies being
"justified by works" (Ro 4:2),
"to the man who does not work. . .his faith is credited as righteousness" (Ro 4:5)
"God credits righteousness apart from works" (Ro 4:6).

When it comes to faith "apart from works," it excludes all works--of the law and otherwise.

 

[JIM]

Work is a performance. There is nothing to perform in faith. Saving faith is apart from performance; i.e., works.

And when it comes to works, Paul spoke of both "works of the law" in response to the Judaizers, and simply "works" in response to everything else.
We see this in his presentation of Abraham as the model of righteousness by faith, where he denies being
"justified by works" (Ro 4:2),
"to the man who does not work. . .his faith is credited as righteousness" (Ro 4:5)
"God credits righteousness apart from works" (Ro 4:6).

When it comes to faith "apart from works," it excludes all works--of the law and otherwise.

Do you really think believing is not something to perform, something to do? As I pointed out to Red, Jesus, in John 6:39, clearly said that believing is work, i.e., performance. That follows from His statement, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life....." (v.27). I have no doubt that those in the audience knew that Jesus was talking about performance, i.e., work, something that they were to do, when speaking of believing in God.

I guess I might wonder what you think faith is.

 

[Eleanor]

Do you really think believing is not something to perform, something to do?

Show me what your performance/doing/action did.
Do you really think Paul got it wrong when he said that "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works" (Eh 2:8-9)?
Do you really think Paul sees faith as works, or does he see faith as opposed to works? (Ro 3:21-22, 4:2-3, 9:31-32)?
Do you really think Paul contradicts Jesus when Paul received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally (Gal 1:11-12)?

My money is on it is you who contradicts Jesus, it is not Paul.

As I pointed out to Red, Jesus, in John 6:29, clearly said that believing is work, i.e., performance. That follows from His statement, "Do not labor for the food that perishes, but for the food that endures to eternal life....." (v.27). I have no doubt that those in the audience knew that Jesus was talking about performance, i.e., work, something that they were to do, when speaking of believing in God.

1) Jn 6:29: note the difference in the terminoolgy of Jesus' language and their language.
They asked about the "works" of God, thinking of the many things of the ceremonial law, but
Jesus points them to one "work," the one thing necessary; i.e., that you believe: "This is the work of God: that you believe."
The work of faith is the work of God; i.e., it is God's work, his working in us. It is not our "work."

2) Jn 6:27: does not demonstrate the meaning of Jn 6:29, for it is of an entirely different context.
There he is addressing their seeking him out, not for the sake of the truth, but for the sake of their bellies. He chastises them for seeking only food for their bellies and not seeking food for their souls, for their seeking food that spoils and not seeking food that endures to eternal life.
It has nothing to do with "work."

I guess I might wonder what you think faith is.

I'm glad you asked.
Faith is a believing, trusting, loving commitment to God in the heart. The disposition of the heart is not a "work," or action, it is a state of "being."

 

[JIM]

Show me what your performance/doing actually did.

I believed and repented.

Do you really think Paul got it wrong he said that "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eh 2:8-9)

No, I do not think Paul got it wrong when he said that "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eh 2:8-9)

Do you really think Paul sees faith as works, or does he see faith as opposed to works? (Ro 3:21-22, 4:2-3, 9:31-32).

No I do not really think Paul sees faith as the works of law that he was speaking of; but I do think that he sees believing (faith) in God as a work of God just as Jesus stated in John 6:29.

Do you really think Paul contradicts Jesus when Paul received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally? (Gal 1:11-12)

No, I do not really think Paul contradicts Jesus when Paul received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally? (Gal 1:11-12). Why would you think that?

1) Jn 6:29: note the difference in the terminoolgy of Jesus' language and their language.They asked about the "works" of God, thinking of the many things of the ceremonial law, but Jesus points them to one "work," the one thing necessary; i.e., that you believe: "This is the work of God: that you believe."
The work of faith is the work of God; i.e., it is God's work, his "working in us.

2) Jn 6:27: does not demonstrate the meaning of Jn 6:29, for it is of an entirely different context.
There he is addressing their seeking him out not for the sake of the truth, but for the sake of their bellies. He chastises them for seeking only food for their bellies and not seeking food for their souls, for their seeking food that spoils and not seeking food that endures to eternal life. It has nothing to do with work.

So you think that when they asked Jesus what they needed to do to be doing the works of God, Jesus mislead them? I see no need for there to be any change in terminology between their question and His answer. The only need for that would be you to align with your false notions of what Paul was actually speaking about when he spoke of "faith,,,not works".

I'm glad you asked.
Faith is a believing, trusting, loving commitment to God in the heart. The disposition of the heart is not a "work," it is a state of "being."

Sorry, but that is pure poppycock. One doesn't actually believe, trust, or love with the heart. Those are all functions of the brain, the mind. None of those are states of being. All require mental effort; and in some cases it takes a great deal of effort. The mention of the heart in connection with such activities only adds an emotional flavor to it. That is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:37 that, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.

 

[Eleanor]

I believed and repented.

Those are works as the result of faith, like obedience to the Decalogue is a result of faith.
Faith is not the works of faith, rather faith results in works.

An engineering degree is not the work of engineering, rather the degree results in the work of an engineer.

No, I do not think Paul got it wrong when he said that "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works." (Eh 2:8-9)

No I do not really think Paul sees faith as the works of law that he was speaking of; but I do think that he sees believing (faith) in God as a work of God just as Jesus stated in John 6:29.

Precisely, for God works faith in us.

No, I do not really think Paul contradicts Jesus when Paul received his gospel from Jesus Christ personally? (Gal 1:11-12). Why would you think that?

So you think that when they asked Jesus what they needed to do to be doing the works of God, Jesus mislead them?

Jesus more than once answered their questions on a deeper level than which they asked them, just as he did here.

I see no need for there to be any change in terminology between their question and His answer. The only need for that would be you to align with your false notions of what Paul was actually speaking about when he spoke of "faith,,,not works".

Sorry, but that is pure poppycock. One doesn't actually believe, trust, or love with the heart.

Are you sure about that?

Those are all functions of the brain, the mind. None of those are states of being. All require mental effort; and in some cases it takes a great deal of effort. The mention of the heart in connection with such activities only adds an emotional flavor to it.
That is why Jesus said in Matthew 22:37 that, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. [/B]

It would help if you were more Biblically informed.
You will have to Biblically prove your assertions for them to have any merit.

 

[Red Baker]

Sorry Red, I couldn't let that go by.

No problem

Jesus, Himself, has proven you wrong. In John 6:29, Jesus declares that faith, belief in God, is a work. That was in answer to the question raised by the crowd, namely, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" The "we do" is certainly something that they would have an "active part in". And Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith.

Jim, I fully understand that faith is a work of the law~Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; etc.

And Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. So clearly the works that Paul speaks of in passages such as Ephesians 2:9 is not the same as the work as Jesus spoke about in John 6:29. Paul definitely distinguishes between believing in God as something we have an "active part in", from works of law.

Here is where so many gone astray~according to Ephesians 2~we are saved ( saved, as used in a legal sense ) is by faith through grace~But, the faith mentioned in Ephesians 2:8,9 is Christ's faith, not our! Faith in this passage is what we call a metonymy

What is an example of a metonymy? Dish as a substitute for a whole plate of food. Hand as a substitute for assistance. Tongue as a substitute for language, etc.

So, in Ephesians 2, we understand Paul's teaching by following the context and many other scriptures. Our faith which comes from hearing the word of God, is at best, mixed with sin and unbelief, and that has no part in justification in a legal sense, impossible. We cannot even believe until we are first quickened to life on Christ's behalf by the Spirit of the Living God. The new birth gives us the power to see, hear, and believe~but, not until one is first born of God, impossible. The new birth is of God totally, based on the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone, not ours. Faith in this verse we are considering...... Ephesians 2:8,9~and others~Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9; etc.; and Christ's obedience~Romans 5:19, etc.

 

[Red Baker]

Work is a performance. There is nothing to perform in faith. Saving faith is apart from performance; i.e., works.

Greetings Eleanor~I must respectfully disagree with your understanding. Closer to the truth than Jim's, yet your understanding still cannot shut the mouths of gainsayers, because you still have man included in his justification from sin and condemnation of God's law and presently active in the new birth, which he is not.

As a side note, the sinner is not active in any way whatsoever when one is born of God. The new birth is much like the wind blowing~you can't tell from whence its source begins, finished and going, The sinner is dead spiritually speaking~ God comes, creates a new man and then leaves, leaving the new man the power to see, hear, believe, etc. This birth can take place when man is doing just about anything under heaven........working, sleeping, and many other things I will not mentioned because it is irrelevant to God working, because ALL THINGS are naked and open unto the eyes of God Almighty. To believe otherwise, is to have a very small opinion of the LORD JEHOVAH God. Jehovah is his name, God is his title.

There have been folks living in this world who have never heard of Jesus Christ, yet have been born of God~when Paul went through the Roman Empire, he was searching, looking for folks that show signs of being born of God~ his preaching helped him to discerned them~or, any religious actively, like praying, and desiring to hear what he had to say, and by them cleaving to him after hearing him. He had a strong desire to go to Spain for this very reason! The gospel does not BRING LIFE, it only can manifest where there is life, nothing more.

2nd Timothy 1:9,10~"Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began, But is now made manifest by the appearing of our Saviour Jesus Christ, who hath abolished death, and hath brought life and immortality to light through the gospel:

Notice carefully: life and immortality comes to light through the gospel, it cannot bring life to a dead sinner, only God's power can work such a miracle of grace.

And when it comes to works, Paul spoke of both "works of the law" in response to the Judaizers, and simply "works" in response to everything else.

Eleanor~the works of the law is any and all woks a man has an ACTIVE PART IN, be it whatever that work may be.

Do you really think Paul got it wrong when he said that "salvation is. . .through faith. . .not by works" (Eh 2:8-9)?

Read the post I sent to Jim where I addressed these scriptures

We see this in his presentation of Abraham as the model of righteousness by faith, where he denies being
"justified by works" (Ro 4:2),
"to the man who does not work. . .his faith is credited as righteousness" (Ro 4:5)
"God credits righteousness apart from works" (Ro 4:6).

When it comes to faith "apart from works," it excludes all works--of the law and otherwise.

Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.​

This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23).

Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it.

This is precious and sweet, if you grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!

Why is Abraham so important? All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12) For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6). Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians hold conditional justification –~faith is the human condition for righteousness.

Calvinists hold instrumental justification ~ faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being in error, for our faith does not affect legal justification, or have a part in it.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to hell (Gen 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Please consider: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?

Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Heb 11:4-7).

God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!

 

[JIM]

Those are works as the result of faith, like obedience to the Decalogue is a result of faith.
Faith is not the works of faith, rather faith results in works

To believe in God is to faith. It is something that you do. It is a work. Jesus said so.

An engineering degree is not the work of engineering, rather the degree results in the work of an engineer.

Are you really comparing the act of believing in God to a piece of paper acknowledging the satisfactory completion of a study..

It would help if you were more Biblically informed.

I think you mean it would help if I thought the way you think.

 

[Manfred]

Sorry Red, I couldn't let that go by. Jesus, Himself, has proven you wrong. In John 6:29, Jesus declares that faith, belief in God, is a work. That was in answer to the question raised by the crowd, namely, "What must we do, to be doing the works of God?" The "we do" is certainly something that they would have an "active part in". And Paul tells us that we are saved by grace through faith. So clearly the works that Paul speaks of in passages such as Ephesians 2:9 is not the same as the work as Jesus spoke about in John 6:29. Paul definitely distinguishes between believing in God as something we have an "active part in", from works of law.

According to your logic, you will have something to boast about before God.
Your good work of faith.

You braggart you!

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

 

[JIM]

Jim, I fully understand that faith is a work of the law~Matthew 23:23; 1st John 3:23; etc.

You are again relying on the KJV translation. Faithfulness is not the same as faith. Romans 3:3 speaks of faithfulness of God. But the KJV gets it wrong and speaks of the faith of God. The very idea of God having or needing faith is an oxymoron. He knows everything absolutely; faith is not even and issue. And the KJV gets it wrong in Mathew 23:23.

The case with 1 John 3:23 is a bit more complicated. The law that Paul speaks of in his statements of "Justification by faith" not law is the law of Moses as given to the Hebrews in conjunction with the Old Covenant. There are also laws, commandments, associated with the New Covenant. While many of the commandments may be the same or similar to the commandments in the law of Moses, nevertheless it is not the same. The New Covenant is not the Old Covenant. There are commandments in the New Covenant, some of which are the same as the commandments in the Old Covenant. That does not make the Covenants the same.

Here is where so many gone astray~according to Ephesians 2~we are saved ( saved, as used in a legal sense ) is by faith through grace~But, the faith mentioned in Ephesians 2:8,9 is Christ's faith, not our! Faith in this passage is what we call a metonymy

Oh my Red. Salvation is not by faith through grace!!! Salvation is by grace through faith. Now I could accept what you said as a bit of a mistake. But the fact is that you still, after all of our discussions and interchanges, do not really know and understand what faith is. That is demonstrated by your insistence that Jesus and God needed and possessed faith.

We cannot even believe until we are first quickened to life on Christ's behalf by the Spirit of the Living God. The new birth gives us the power to see, hear, and believe~but, not until one is first born of God, impossible. The new birth is of God totally, based on the faith and obedience of Jesus Christ alone, not ours. Faith in this verse we are considering...... Ephesians 2:8,9~and others~Romans 3:22; Philippians 3:9; etc.; and Christ's obedience~Romans 5:19, etc.

All of that is such a horrendous batch of KJV errors in translation/interpretation, that it borders on blasphemy. The very idea of God, the Father, and God, the Son, having or needing faith is just plain wrong. That Jesus Christ was obedient, definitely yes. That Jesus Christ was faithful, definitely yes. But that Jesus Christ had or needed faith, absolutely not. Jesus didn't need to believe in God; Jesus was/is God.

 

[JIM]

According to your logic, you will have something to boast about before God.
Your good work of faith.

You braggart you!

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

There are none so blowhard, braggadocious and egotistical as the Calvinist who thinks he has been personally and individually selected by God to be saved based upon only God’s sovereign choice, while the rest of the slobs were just kicked aside to burn in hell.

The fundamental and the crucial meaning of Ephesians 2:9 is that you cannot ever be good enough to earn eternal life. It has nothing whatsoever to do with there being no conditions posited by God for obtaining eternal life. That, of course, is a bit of a conundrum for the Calvinist, because he cannot ever be certain that he is among the elect. And that is a really terrible place to live out your life.

 

[Manfred]

There are none so blowhard, braggadocious and egotistical as the Calvinist who thinks he has been personally and individually selected by God to be saved based upon only God’s sovereign choice, while the rest of the slobs were just kicked aside to burn in hell.

Not true.

All Calvinist hold to what is sung in the hymn "Amazing Grace"
We did NOTHING to deserve God's mercy, and will NEVER claim it.

Unlike you, braggart!

The fundamental and the crucial meaning of Ephesians 2:9 is that you cannot ever be good enough to earn eternal life.

But you claim your work of faith makes you good enough.
Stop speaking with a forked tongue, braggart.

It has nothing whatsoever to do with there being no conditions posited by God for obtaining eternal life.

There is only one condition.

That, of course, is a bit of a conundrum for the Calvinist, because he cannot ever be certain that he is among the elect.

Of course I am certain. He revealed Himself to me.
Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

And that is a really terrible place to live out your life.

Well, how are you certain braggart?

 

[JIM]

But you claim your work of faith makes you good enough.

I do not make such a claim. That is a typical Calvinist strawman.

Of course I am certain. He revealed Himself to me.

Are you sure? What did He actually say to you? Please tell us the specifics of that revelation. Know that He has revealed Himself to Satan and all of the fallen angels. How are you any different?

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.

How much assurance and conviction are necessary? How do you know you have enough to make it into eternal life?

Well, how are you certain braggart?

I have His promise. God's promises are sure, they never fail. You on the other hand have not even a hint that you, personally, have been chosen.

 

[Manfred]

I do not make such a claim. That is a typical Calvinist strawman.

Oh? Is your argument NOT that faith is a work!

I can show you how you argue that.
Your claim therefore is that since your faith is a work that you do, you are saved by doing that work.
I see no strawman.

Are you sure? What did He actually say to you? Please tell us the specifics of that revelation. Know that He has revealed Himself to Satan and all of the fallen angels. How are you any different?

Oh boy! I have shared my testimony on many occasions.
It would seem by this silly response that you believe based on your intellect and perhaps second-hand revelation.

How much assurance and conviction are necessary? How do you know you have enough to make it into eternal life?

Because I have an intimate relationship with God. I don't have to make it in to eternal life. He placed me with Him in heavenly places.
You allude to you having to make it into eternal life.
Joh 6:39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day.
Joh 6:40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day.”
Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us,
Eph 2:5 even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—
Eph 2:6 and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,

I have His promise. God's promises are sure, they never fail. You on the other hand have not even a hint that you, personally, have been chosen.

I am not concerned about your feelings and ideas.
What promise do you have?

Where is the promise that if you choose to do a work of belief you are secure!
Mat 11:25 At that time Jesus declared, “I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children;
Mat 11:26 yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.

You are one of those Christians who believe self to be sovereign over God.
You are better than the atheist who stands next to person converted by the hearing of word, and is not converted. You somehow have a better understanding and could therefore make a better choice.
Braggart!

 

[Eleanor]

Greetings Eleanor~I must respectfully disagree with your understanding. Closer to the truth than Jim's, yet your understanding still cannot shut the mouths of gainsayers, because you still have man included in his justification from sin and condemnation of God's law and presently active in the new birth, which he is not.

As a side note, the sinner is not active in any way whatsoever when one is born of God. The new birth is much like the wind blowing~you can't tell from whence its source begins, finished and going, The sinner is dead spiritually speaking~ God comes, creates a new man and then leaves, leaving the new man the power to see, hear, believe, etc. This birth can take place when man is doing just about anything under heaven........working, sleeping, and many other things I will not mentioned because it is irrelevant to God working, because ALL THINGS are naked and open unto the eyes of God Almighty. To believe otherwise, is to have a very small opinion of the LORD JEHOVAH God. Jehovah is his name, God is his title.

There have been folks living in this world who have never heard of Jesus Christ, yet have been born of God~when Paul went through the Roman Empire, he was searching, looking for folks that show signs of being born of God~ his preaching helped him to discerned them~or, any religious actively, like praying, and desiring to hear what he had to say, and by them cleaving to him after hearing him. He had a strong desire to go to Spain for this very reason! The gospel does not BRING LIFE, it only can manifest where there is life, nothing more.

Notice carefully: life and immortality comes to light through the gospel, it cannot bring life to a dead sinner, only God's power can work such a miracle of grace.

Eleanor~the works of the law is any and all woks a man has an ACTIVE PART IN, be it whatever that work may be.

Thanks, Red.

Faith is not man's "active work." Faith is God's work, a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

And therein is where that whole structure of faith as man's "work" collapses.

Read the post I sent to Jim where I addressed these scriptures
Even as Abraham believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.
This is the most popular Bible quotation (Gen 15:6; Rom 4:3,5,6,9,22,24; Gal 3:6; Jas 2:23).
Paul declared New Testament worship of Christ to be comparable to Abraham’s worship. The adverbial phrase, even as, means that there is a very strong comparison to be seen. Paul has been mentioning faith over and over, and Abraham is the greatest example of it.
This is precious and sweet, if you grasp Paul introduced Abraham as father to Gentiles!
Why is Abraham so important? All the Jews recognized Abraham as the great friend of God, inheritor of promises, and father of the nation, in whom they took great confidence (Matt 3:9; John 8:33; Ex 3:6). For those trusting Abraham, he was a man approved and commended by God for faith. For those trusting circumcision, Abraham was declared righteous before it (Rom 4:9-12) For those trusting Law, Abram was righteous 430 years before (Rom 4:13-16; Gal 3:17).

What did Abraham believe? God promised him a son and a multitudinous seed (Gen 15:6). Did Abraham call forth faith in order to be justified and made righteous by God at this time?

Here is where we greatly differ from Arminians and Calvinists alike about justification, whom we find to be very similar on this doctrine, when we press them for definitions.

Arminians hold conditional justification –~faith is the human condition for righteousness.

Calvinists hold instrumental justification ~ faith is the instrument receiving righteousness.

We deny both as being in error, for our faith does not affect legal justification, or have a part in it.

The text says God accepted Abraham’s faith and counted it as evidence for righteousness, which is how we understand it: our faith is the spiritual evidence and fruit of salvation.

The difference is significant – is legal justification conditional, or is it unconditional? Is faith the means of righteousness before God, or is it only the evidence of righteousness?

Abraham had believed God and his promises and trusted Him obediently long before this minor event (Gen 12:1-4; Heb 11:8; Gen 12:7,8; 13:4,14-18; 14:17-24).

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then he was a condemned pagan in his previous acts of worship, which God joyfully accepted!

Did Melchizedek bless Abram as a condemned sinner on his way to hell (Gen 14:18-20)?

Before Abraham could get started believing, God had already accepted him (Gen 15:1)!

If this event was the conditional or instrumental cause of Abraham’s justification, then the shish-ka-bob javelin act of Phinehas was his condition or instrument (Ps 106:30-31)!

Please consider: Is it an act of faith that justifies? A life of faith? Or only while you have faith? Or what?

Why was this event singled out and quoted more in the New Testament than any passage?

Abel, Enoch, and Noah were ignored, because they were not the “father” of Israel, though they proved their righteous character by their faith long before Abraham (Heb 11:4-7).

God wrote Genesis 15:6 for the future use of Paul in showing the important role of faith to Jews trusting the Law that came 430 years later and to Gentiles that had no Law at all!

 

[Eleanor]

To believe in God is to faith. It is something that you do. It is a work. Jesus said so.

Jesus did not say so.

Rather the NT teaches that faith is a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3), it is not a work of man.

Are you really comparing the act of believing in God to a piece of paper acknowledging the satisfactory completion of a study..
I think you mean it would help if I thought the way you think.

Sorry about your not seeing the nature of the parallel.

 

[JIM]

Sorry about your not seeing the nature of the parallel.

I see the nature of the parallel. It is just a really bad one; I know that since I have degrees in engineering.

 

[Red Baker]

Thanks, Red.

Faith is not man's "active work." Faith is God's work, a gift of God (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).

Sister, faith is man's active work~but not the old man Adam, but the new man, the second Adam! God's work dear sister, is to CREATE us new man within us, ( being born of God ) that gives the child of God the power to have faith~and in this sense, it is freely given to us on the behalf of Christ. Jesus Christ secured this gift for us, as our surety before God.

And therein is where that whole structure of faith as man's "work" collapses.

Yes, in the manner I just explained. You, dear soul are much like Apollos, you just need to be more instructed in the truth of the gospel of free grace. Absolutely no pun intended~God forbid.

Acts 18:24-28~"And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly. And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace: For he mightily convinced the Jews, and that publickly, shewing by the scriptures that Jesus was Christ."

 

[Eleanor]

Sister, faith is man's active work~

Sorry you don't think that believing is a gift as the Scriptures state (Php 1:29, Ac 13:48, 18:27, 2 Pe 1:1, Ro 12:3).