JOSEPH SMITH

[Fred]

@Fred has neither denied nor confirmed that his is a Mormon.

Thank you.

I am most definitely not a Mormon.

What I did was post their refutation of praying to Jesus (post #13). They affirm that to speak to Him when He is in the immediate presence of a person does not constitute praying to Him.

I think that instead of using 3 Nephi there are other (and better) examples of prayer to Jesus in the Book of Mormon where no mention is made that He was in their immediate presence. One such example (among others) is seen below:



The boldface below is mine.

Alma 36:18
Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual
Ask a student to read Alma 36:18 aloud.
Invite the class to look for what Alma did to act on his father’s teachings.
What did Alma do to act on his father’s teachings? Point out that Alma’s prayer demonstrated his willingness to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement. (Lesson 93: Alma 36)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-the-book-of-alma/lesson-93-alma-36?lang=eng

 

[Arial]

Thank you.

I am most definitely not a Mormon.

What I did was post their refutation of praying to Jesus (post #13). They affirm that to speak to Him when He is in the immediate presence of a person does not constitute praying to Him.

I think that instead of using 3 Nephi there are other (and better) examples of prayer to Jesus in the Book of Mormon where no mention is made that He was in their immediate presence. One such example (among others) is seen below:



The boldface below is mine.

Alma 36:18
Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual
Ask a student to read Alma 36:18 aloud.
Invite the class to look for what Alma did to act on his father’s teachings.
What did Alma do to act on his father’s teachings? Point out that Alma’s prayer demonstrated his willingness to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement. (Lesson 93: Alma 36)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-the-book-of-alma/lesson-93-alma-36?lang=eng

I was pretty sure it was just a misunderstanding on Rescued's part. So thank you.

 

[Fred]

I was pretty sure it was just a misunderstanding on Rescued's part. So thank you.

I understand.
No problem.
Believers must be circumspect in all things (cf. Ex. 23:13).

 

[Arial]

I understand.
No problem.
Believers must be circumspect in all things (cf. Ex. 23:13).

Well, you have never remotely posted anything that made the though that you were Mormon even cross my mind. Give grace to @Rescued One in the matter. She has not been a member of the forum for long and likely your posts here are the first that she has seen. Her reaction is quite understandable, given that Mormonism is one of the things she was rescued from. And a most definite rescue by God that was, as once a false teaching that promises the only way of salvation and safety is embedded into the mind and heart, fear holds it there. Only God through Christ can break those chains.

 

[Fred]

Well, you have never remotely posted anything that made the though that you were Mormon even cross my mind. Give grace to @Rescued One in the matter. She has not been a member of the forum for long and likely your posts here are the first that she has seen. Her reaction is quite understandable, given that Mormonism is one of the things she was rescued from. And a most definite rescue by God that was, as once a false teaching that promises the only way of salvation and safety is embedded into the mind and heart, fear holds it there. Only God through Christ can break those chains.

Amen.

I am thankful to God for having rescued her from that. Now He can use her in such a mighty way for the glory of His most precious Name.

He did the same for me decades ago concerning Roman Catholicism.

 

[Fred]

I'm sorry, Fred.

No problem.

You come/came across as a Mormon by using their magazine Ensign as a defense of praying to Jesus when he is physically in their presence.

It's really crazy and sad how they can deny Jesus is to be prayed to - or teach the same thing in that only the Father is to be prayed to - and then affirm prayer to Jesus.


The boldface below is mine.


Mormon teaching affirms that prayer is due only to the Father and not to Jesus
1. 2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual: From the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets, we know that we are to worship God the Father and pray to Him only. We should not pray to Jesus Christ. (Lesson 128, 3 Nephi 19)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-third-nephi-the-book-of-nephi/lesson-128-3-nephi-19?lang=eng

2. Book of Mormon Student Manual: There is no place in scripture where we are taught to pray to Jesus. (Chapter 43: 3 Nephi 19:18)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-43-3-nephi-18-19?lang=eng

3. Missionary Preparation Student Manual: We always pray to our Father in Heaven, and to him alone. Our prayers are rendered in the name of the Son and communicated by the power of the Holy Ghost. We do not pray to the Savior or to anyone else. To do so would be disrespectful of Heavenly Father and an indication that we do not properly understand the relationship of the members of the Godhead. (Chapter 5, We Learn to Teach “by Study and Also by Faith,” Part 1, page 40)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/missionary-preparation-student-manual/chapter-5-we-learn-to-teach-by-study-and-also-by-faith-part-1?lang=eng




A. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Joel 2:32
Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (KJV)

Prayer
Topical Guide: whosoever shall call on … the Lord shall be delivered, Joel 2:32. (Prayer; Pray)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/prayer?lang=eng

Jesus
Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi: Verse 32 is a reference to Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:13). (Joel: God Will Not Be Mocked, page 85)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-7?lang=eng



B. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Romans 10:13
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

Prayer
Topical Guide: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord, Gen. 4:26 (21:33; Rom. 10:13; Mosiah 4:11; Ether 2:14; Moses 6:4). (Prayer; Pray)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/prayer?lang=eng

Jesus
Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi: Verse 32 is a reference to Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:13). (Joel: God Will Not Be Mocked, page 85)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-7?lang=eng



C. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 22:20
Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (KJV)

New Testament Seminary Student Study Guide: "Come, Lord Jesus" Read Revelation 22:20. Think of what you have learned during your study of the New Testament and write your testimony of Jesus. Include why you would join in John's prayer for Jesus to come. (Revelation 21–22, The Earth Becomes a Celestial World, page 178)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-revelation-of-saint-john-the-divine/revelation-21-22?lang=eng

 

[Fred]

Compare the following with #1 and #3 in post 26.

The boldface below is mine.


The Beauty of Childlike Faith: I had an experience with my four-year-old son recently that taught me a tremendous amount about faith.

It was later than I had planned bedtime to be. We were very close to getting into bed with our bedtime routine done, when my son turned to me and said, “My Lego piece is missing”. I hurriedly answered that we would find it in the morning. He would not be deterred. “Mama, I need it, or I can’t go to sleep”. I sighed deeply and barked, “Where did you last have it?” “Right here”, he answered, pointing to his bedside. “It must have fallen on the floor”.

The floor was covered in books, toys, and other debris from an evening of playing that I hadn’t had time to tidy away. It was hopeless to try and find one little piece of Lego. Again, I said we would find it in the morning. My son turned to me and, with determination etched into his little face, said, "If we pray to Jesus, we will find it!" I was taken aback by his powerful declaration but impressed at the same time.

My four-tear-old had more presence of mind than I had as he knew, not hoped but knew, that if he prayed, Jesus would help him find it. So, he prayed to Jesus to find his piece. Despite the prayer of an innocent and precious child of God, I still doubted. I searched for a moment then, humbled by his faith and ashamed of the lack of my own, said my own silent prayer that my Father in Heaven would help me. This moment would be a precious faith-builder in my son's life that he could look back on, and I could not fail.

A few moments passed, and just as my search seemed hopeless, I lifted a book, and there was the piece underneath. A wave of relief and gratitude filled my heart. My little boy turned to me and said, his face beaming with pride, “See, I told you!” I was humbled by my precious son and his amazing faith. (Kay Hinkle)
https://uk.churchofjesuschrist.org/the-beauty-of-childlike-faith

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you.

I am most definitely not a Mormon.

What I did was post their refutation of praying to Jesus (post #13). They affirm that to speak to Him when He is in the immediate presence of a person does not constitute praying to Him.

I think that instead of using 3 Nephi there are other (and better) examples of prayer to Jesus in the Book of Mormon where no mention is made that He was in their immediate presence. One such example (among others) is seen below:



The boldface below is mine.

Alma 36:18
Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual
Ask a student to read Alma 36:18 aloud.
Invite the class to look for what Alma did to act on his father’s teachings.
What did Alma do to act on his father’s teachings? Point out that Alma’s prayer demonstrated his willingness to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement. (Lesson 93: Alma 36)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-the-book-of-alma/lesson-93-alma-36?lang=eng

Thank you. I need to point out that Joseph Smith was at first Trinitarian or Modalist. Mormons taught me that it was okay for the Nephites to pray to Jesus because he was in their presence. This was the resurrected jesus who visited his other sheep who lived in America instead of the places Paul and other followers visited. In previous years Mormons taught that the American Indians were descended from Hebrews.

At some point, Joseph Smith taught that there were three gods, and one should only pray to Elohim, "heavenly father."

Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

The above verse presents an additional problem for them regarding the Holy Ghost.

Doctrine and Covenants 131:7
7 There is no such thing as immaterial matter. All spirit is matter, but it is more fine or pure, and can only be discerned by purer eyes;

Mormon Manual, Gospel Principles, Chapter 7:

Attributes of the Holy Ghost​

• How does the Holy Ghost differ from the Father and the Son? Why is that difference important to us?

The Holy Ghost is a member of the Godhead (see 1 John 5:7; D&C 20:28). He is a “personage of Spirit” (D&C 130:22). He can be in only one place at a time, but His influence can be everywhere at the same time.

Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are called the Godhead. They are unified in purpose.

 

[Rescued One]

Thank you.

I am most definitely not a Mormon.

What I did was post their refutation of praying to Jesus (post #13). They affirm that to speak to Him when He is in the immediate presence of a person does not constitute praying to Him.

I think that instead of using 3 Nephi there are other (and better) examples of prayer to Jesus in the Book of Mormon where no mention is made that He was in their immediate presence. One such example (among others) is seen below:



The boldface below is mine.

Alma 36:18
Now, as my mind caught hold upon this thought, I cried within my heart: O Jesus, thou Son of God, have mercy on me, who am in the gall of bitterness, and am encircled about by the everlasting chains of death.

2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual
Ask a student to read Alma 36:18 aloud.
Invite the class to look for what Alma did to act on his father’s teachings.
What did Alma do to act on his father’s teachings? Point out that Alma’s prayer demonstrated his willingness to exercise faith in Jesus Christ and His Atonement. (Lesson 93: Alma 36)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-the-book-of-alma/lesson-93-alma-36?lang=eng

Jesus was resurrected and physically visited the people in America according to Mormonism. They are not allowed to pray to Jesus if he is not present.

 

[Rescued One]

No problem.



It's really crazy and sad how they can deny Jesus is to be prayed to - or teach the same thing in that only the Father is to be prayed to - and then affirm prayer to Jesus.


The boldface below is mine.


Mormon teaching affirms that prayer is due only to the Father and not to Jesus
1. 2017 Book of Mormon Seminary Teacher Manual: From the scriptures and the teachings of latter-day prophets, we know that we are to worship God the Father and pray to Him only. We should not pray to Jesus Christ. (Lesson 128, 3 Nephi 19)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-seminary-teacher-manual-2017/introduction-to-third-nephi-the-book-of-nephi/lesson-128-3-nephi-19?lang=eng

2. Book of Mormon Student Manual: There is no place in scripture where we are taught to pray to Jesus. (Chapter 43: 3 Nephi 19:18)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/book-of-mormon-student-manual/chapter-43-3-nephi-18-19?lang=eng

3. Missionary Preparation Student Manual: We always pray to our Father in Heaven, and to him alone. Our prayers are rendered in the name of the Son and communicated by the power of the Holy Ghost. We do not pray to the Savior or to anyone else. To do so would be disrespectful of Heavenly Father and an indication that we do not properly understand the relationship of the members of the Godhead. (Chapter 5, We Learn to Teach “by Study and Also by Faith,” Part 1, page 40)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/missionary-preparation-student-manual/chapter-5-we-learn-to-teach-by-study-and-also-by-faith-part-1?lang=eng




A. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Joel 2:32
Joel 2:32
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call. (KJV)

Prayer
Topical Guide: whosoever shall call on … the Lord shall be delivered, Joel 2:32. (Prayer; Pray)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/prayer?lang=eng

Jesus
Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi: Verse 32 is a reference to Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:13). (Joel: God Will Not Be Mocked, page 85)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-7?lang=eng



B. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Romans 10:13
Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. (KJV)

Prayer
Topical Guide: then began men to call upon the name of the Lord, Gen. 4:26 (21:33; Rom. 10:13; Mosiah 4:11; Ether 2:14; Moses 6:4). (Prayer; Pray)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/tg/prayer?lang=eng

Jesus
Old Testament Student Manual Kings-Malachi: Verse 32 is a reference to Jesus Christ (see Romans 10:13). (Joel: God Will Not Be Mocked, page 85)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/old-testament-student-manual-kings-malachi/chapter-7?lang=eng



C. The Mormons affirm praying to the Lord Jesus in Revelation 22:20
Revelation 22:20
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus. (KJV)

New Testament Seminary Student Study Guide: "Come, Lord Jesus" Read Revelation 22:20. Think of what you have learned during your study of the New Testament and write your testimony of Jesus. Include why you would join in John's prayer for Jesus to come. (Revelation 21–22, The Earth Becomes a Celestial World, page 178)
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/new-testament-student-study-guide/the-revelation-of-saint-john-the-divine/revelation-21-22?lang=eng

Mormons teach that Jesus is Jehovah. Isaiah 43:10 makes their Jehovah a liar in my opinion. The Father is Elohim. They do not believe the Bible was translated correctly.

 

[Rescued One]

PART ONE:

Book of Mormon, 1 Nephi, Chapter Thirteen
12And I looked and beheld a man among the Gentiles, who was separated from the seed of my brethren by the many waters; and I beheld the Spirit of God, that it came down and wrought upon the man; and he went forth upon the many waters, even unto the seed of my brethren, who were in the promised land.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld the Spirit of God, that it wrought upon other Gentiles; and they went forth out of captivity, upon the many waters.

14 And it came to pass that I beheld many multitudes of the Gentiles upon the land of promise; and I beheld the wrath of God, that it was upon the seed of my brethren; and they were scattered before the Gentiles and were smitten.

15 And I beheld the Spirit of the Lord, that it was upon the Gentiles, and they did prosper and obtain the land for their inheritance; and I beheld that they were white, and exceedingly fair and beautiful, like unto my people before they were slain.

16 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles who had gone forth out of captivity did humble themselves before the Lord; and the power of the Lord was with them.

17 And I beheld that their mother Gentiles were gathered together upon the waters, and upon the land also, to battle against them.

18 And I beheld that the power of God was with them, and also that the wrath of God was upon all those that were gathered together against them to battle.

19 And I, Nephi, beheld that the Gentiles that had gone out of captivity were delivered by the power of God out of the hands of all other nations.

 

[Rescued One]

PART TWO:
20 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld that they did prosper in the land; and I beheld a book, and it was carried forth among them.
21 And the angel said unto me: Knowest thou the meaning of the book?
22 And I said unto him: I know not.
23 And he said: Behold it proceedeth out of the mouth of a Jew. And I, Nephi, beheld it; and he said unto me: The book that thou beholdest is a record of the Jews, which contains the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; and it also containeth many of the prophecies of the holy prophets; and it is a record like unto the engravings which are upon the plates of brass, save there are not so many; nevertheless, they contain the covenants of the Lord, which he hath made unto the house of Israel; wherefore, they are of great worth unto the Gentiles.
24 And the angel of the Lord said unto me: Thou hast beheld that the book proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew; and when it proceeded forth from the mouth of a Jew it contained the fulness of the gospel of the Lord, of whom the twelve apostles bear record; and they bear record according to the truth which is in the Lamb of God.
25 Wherefore, these things go forth from the Jews in purity unto the Gentiles, according to the truth which is in God.
26 And after they go forth by the hand of the twelve apostles of the Lamb, from the Jews unto the Gentiles, thou seest the formation of that great and abominable church, which is most abominable above all other churches; for behold, they have taken away from the gospel of the Lamb many parts which are plain and most precious; and also many covenants of the Lord have they taken away.
27 And all this have they done that they might pervert the right ways of the Lord, that they might blind the eyes and harden the hearts of the children of men.
28 Wherefore, thou seest that after the book hath gone forth through the hands of the great and abominable church, that there are many plain and precious things taken away from the book, which is the book of the Lamb of God.
29 And after these plain and precious things were taken away it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles; and after it goeth forth unto all the nations of the Gentiles, yea, even across the many waters which thou hast seen with the Gentiles which have gone forth out of captivity, thou seest—because of the many plain and precious things which have been taken out of the book, which were plain unto the understanding of the children of men, according to the plainness which is in the Lamb of God—because of these things which are taken away out of the gospel of the Lamb, an exceedingly great many do stumble, yea, insomuch that Satan hath great power over them.



All non-Mormon churches are of the devil according to Mormon scriptures.

​

​

 

[Rescued One]

I can't fix that post.

 

[Josheb]

I can't fix that post.

A lot of time and space is being spent preaching to the choir. We know a religion that teaches God was once human and humans can become Gods (not gods) is a bad religion.

 

[Hazelelponi]

A lot of time and space is being spent preaching to the choir. We know a religion that teaches God was once human and humans can become Gods (not gods) is a bad religion.

This is the equipping to do just that - go forth with the message of hope

 

[Josheb]

This is the equipping to do just that - go forth with the message of hope

My point is that a lot of time and effort are spent posting about stuff everyone here already knows. Why is this op posted?

@Rescued One?

 

[Arial]

My point is that a lot of time and effort are spent posting about stuff everyone here already knows. Why is this op posted?

@Rescued One?

We don't all know the things that are being posted that are coming straight from LDS. What we already know is that LDS is a cult. What would be great is if the LDS statements were contrasted with biblical counters.

@Rescued One Are the things you are quoting from the JST (Joseph Smith Translation.

From ChatGPT

1.​

• The LDS Church uses the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible as its official English-language version.
• They did not rewrite the text but included footnotes, cross-references, and study aids that reflect LDS theology.

2.​

• Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, created what is called the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible.
• This was not a full re-translation from original languages, but rather a "revelatory revision" — Smith claimed to receive inspiration to correct or clarify passages.
• The JST includes additions, deletions, and clarifications to some verses, but does not cover the entire Bible.

Example:

John 1:1–2 (KJV) vs JST)​

• KJV:
  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
• JST:
  "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God."

Change: This reframes the "Word" as the gospel preached by the Son, not identifying the "Word" as God. This aligns with LDS Christology, which sees Jesus as divine but distinct from God the Father.

(end of Chat GPT)​

 

[Rescued One]

We don't all know the things that are being posted that are coming straight from LDS. What we already know is that LDS is a cult. What would be great is if the LDS statements were contrasted with biblical counters.

@Rescued One Are the things you are quoting from the JST (Joseph Smith Translation.

From ChatGPT

1.​

• The LDS Church uses the King James Version (KJV) of the Bible as its official English-language version.
• They did not rewrite the text but included footnotes, cross-references, and study aids that reflect LDS theology.

2.​

• Joseph Smith, the founder of the church, created what is called the Joseph Smith Translation (JST) of the Bible.
• This was not a full re-translation from original languages, but rather a "revelatory revision" — Smith claimed to receive inspiration to correct or clarify passages.
• The JST includes additions, deletions, and clarifications to some verses, but does not cover the entire Bible.

Example:

John 1:1–2 (KJV) vs JST)​

• KJV:
  "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."
• JST:
  "In the beginning was the gospel preached through the Son. And the gospel was the word, and the word was with the Son, and the Son was with God, and the Son was of God."

Change: This reframes the "Word" as the gospel preached by the Son, not identifying the "Word" as God. This aligns with LDS Christology, which sees Jesus as divine but distinct from God the Father.

(end of Chat GPT)​

 

[Rescued One]

The JST is actually the Inspired Version published by The Community of Christ and availalable on their website.

I wasn't aware that everyone knew that the Mormons taught (in the seventies) that "Heavenly Father" had sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary to impregnate her with Jesus.

 

[Rescued One]

My point is that a lot of time and effort are spent posting about stuff everyone here already knows. Why is this op posted?

@Rescued One?

I posted because Jehovah's Witnesses are listed, but Mormons weren't.