Jesus' salvation is not God's AA for sinning.

[ChristB4us]

A rather fine example of sophistry.

"the use of fallacious arguments, especially with the intention of deceiving:"

I understand why you would think in that way since you have been taught to follow Jesus by keeping that commitment and therefore do not see the evil of it per His words.

So, we deny the power of Christ by keeping our commitment to Him...

Let us say for your example that it is okay to keep that commitment to follow Christ in doing the best you can in keeping His commandments; when does Christ's power enable you to do it if you are claiming to do it all by keeping that commitment?

Do not the religious men of the world know of commitments, even Muslims by example? How about the AA & the NA?

NOBODY can see YOUR FAITH in Him to help you to follow Him if you are claiming you are following Him by keeping that commitment.

Why give thanks to the Father in Jesus's name at all, since you are doing it all for following Him by keeping YOUR commitment?

Why did Jesus had to come at all when all the Jews had to do was make a commitment to follow the law of Moses to be saved?

I can only hope that God is peradventuring to prune your fruitful branch so you can bear more fruit so that others may see your faith in Jesus Christ and give glory to God rather than give you the glory for following Him by keeping that commitment..

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that are keeping the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
How about denying Christ by works, while claiming His power alone to do so?

And how do we keep the commandments of God....it is by faith in Jesus Christ. That is the only way to align that verse in according to our faith in Jesus Christ as standing apart from the law of the Old Covenant where it was on the Jews to do God's work of obtaining salvation & for following Him.

 

[ChristB4us]

Or keeping one's commitment to sinning, is not by the faith of Jesus nor the power of God?

If you ever come across a sinner like that, more than likely he is rejecting Jesus Christ in being a mocker by making a religious promise to keep on sinning.

It is the believers that have been religiously prompted by their zealousness to make that commitment to follow Christ.

They will give grace to themselves for not keeping it but trying to anyway while condemning others for breaking their commitment as if they came forward with their fingers crossed or something. Like it or not, Jesus will judge them in return for judging others like a Pharisees like that when they should be correcting others in Christ's love.

Keeping the faith of Jesus and His commandments, is not the error of doing one's own righteousness.

Keeping the faith in Jesus Christ to help us to abide in His words thus keeping His commandments is what discipleship as in running that race is all about.

Once again, you avoid the original analogy to AA and Committed Christian sinners. It's not about will power and power of God, but about the commitment to calling oneself a sinner for life, and doing it unto the grave.

The analogy of the AA & the NA and the religious rudiment in the world that religious people can identify with and commend men for doing is not of the faith in Jesus Christ for how we are to follow Him by faith alone.

Let us say you have an enemy that has been making your life a living hell; yes, even ones that profess to be your brother or sister in Christ, that betray you and defraud you and lie to you and allow others to sow discord between you and other brethren and getting away with it.

What is your response? "Avengers Assemble!!"???

Turn the other cheek? Be a doormat? Love them by forgiving them for they know not what they do? Just let them get away with it and count it all joy that you are sharing in the sufferings of Christ's?

What would keeping your commitment to follow Christ dictate to you what you are to do?

How do I get through something like that? By my faith, confidence, trust, and hope in Jesus Christ; hardly by keeping any commitment.

 

[ChristB4us]

Your Paul of your Christ, is not the apostle Paul of Jesus Christ.

I don't doubt you have a chiefest of sinners for your personal example, but the Paul I follow was the chiefest example of being delivered from such woeful sinning of his past.

You and your Paul and Christ may indeed be still destroying the faith and persecuting the righteous Christians, but not me nor my Paul nor my Christ.

Paul recognize his dependence and his need for Jesus Christ daily to help him lay aside every weight & sin for running that race.

Hebrews 12:1Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us, 2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

Paul even stated the possibility for him in being a castaway and how he could lose his crown.

1 Corinthians 9:24 Know ye not that they which run in a race run all, but one receiveth the prize? So run, that ye may obtain. 25 And every man that striveth for the mastery is temperate in all things. Now they do it to obtain a corruptible crown; but we an incorruptible. 26 I therefore so run, not as uncertainly; so fight I, not as one that beateth the air: 27 But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Simple unrepented double heartedness. Your gospel of changing the mind about sinning, but not the heart from sinning.

Sin has no dominion over them not sinning. Sin has complete dominion over them sinning.

Declaring sin has no dominion over them sinning, is just another slippery version of saying God does not judge nor condemn them while sinning.

Sin has dominion over sinners and so I ask you how you expect sinners to turn from sin BEFORE coming to & believing in Jesus Christ?

You mean not keeping His commandments, and searing the conscience to the convicting Spirit of grace.

I keep His commandments by faith in Jesus Christ to help me to do it; not as if by keeping a religious commitment; thus looking to myself to do it.

 

[ChristB4us]

Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.

I grant your mastery of hiding your continued sinning beneath shining words. Your pretty speeches would be true, if not for covering continued sinning unto death.

The lie of being forgiven of all present and future sins, demands the conscience reject any conviction for sinning, that should lead to being forgiven by Christ.

No one can add to or take away from the New Covenant of what God says He will do and all He asks from you is to believe Him.

By making a commitment; is the same thing as making a covenant with God and thereby denying Him of His New Covenant to you by that commitment. Again, a believer's commitment to do it voids his faith in Jesus Christ as his Saviour & Good Shepherd to do it.

it is akin to hearing God making that New Covenant of what He will do and then turning around and saying "No, God! I will do it! Let me show You my love and zeal for You !!"

Psalm 50:14 Offer unto God thanksgiving; and pay thy vows unto the most High: 15 And call upon me in the day of trouble: I will deliver thee, and thou shalt glorify me. 16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or that thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth? 17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and casteth my words behind thee. 18 When thou sawest a thief, then thou consentedst with him, and hast been partaker with adulterers. 19 Thou givest thy mouth to evil, and thy tongue frameth deceit. 20 Thou sittest and speakest against thy brother; thou slanderest thine own mother's son. 21 These things hast thou done, and I kept silence; thou thoughtest that I was altogether such an one as thyself: but I will reprove thee, and set them in order before thine eyes. 22 Now consider this, ye that forget God, lest I tear you in pieces, and there be none to deliver. 23 Whoso offereth praise glorifieth me: and to him that ordereth his conversation aright will I shew the salvation of God.

With that believer's commitment out of the way leaving only the believer's testimony of his faith in Jesus Christ for following Him is how sinners can have that same hope in Christ and all believers will give God the glory.

 

[ChristB4us]

Not while sinning. The only disciples while sinning or those of the devil.

Professing believers that live in sin are certainly not abiding in Him & His words in being His disciples. That also includes religious works like keeping that commitment to follow Him that deny our faith in Him as our Good Shepherd to help us to do it.

Can't blame the devil for being a willing disciple of the devil.

A willing disciple of the devil? Hardly. Losing sight of Him in the face of temptations can do it along with our infirmity in the flesh, but if we face our fiery trial by faith in Jesus Christ to help us through it, you may understand why you will cast our crown at His feet because it is because of Him is why you have that crown as it is His crowning achievements on you for placing your faith in Him to do it.

James 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him. 13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man: 14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. 15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death. 16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.

1 John 2:1My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world

1 John 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. 4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full. 5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

 

[ChristB4us]

Discipleship of Jesus is learning not to sin, once repented of sinning.

I believe discipleship is about always leaning on Jesus Christ as our Good Shepherd to help us to follow Him as He will make us aware of any provision for the flesh we should be setting aside hence the weights as well as the sin for those that have sinned and to learn what had caused him to sin; discerning the weights.

He helps me to be aware of negative thoughts as well as certain desires that I should stop thinking about with His help and think on good things. The power comes from Him for me to do that. I want to resist sin and the devil but I look to Jesus Christ to help me to do it.

Hebrews 2:18 For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.

Hebrews 4:12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

2 Corinthians 10:4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled.

Philippians 4:5 Let your moderation be known unto all men. The Lord is at hand. 6 Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. 7 And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. 8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. 9 Those things, which ye have both learned, and received, and heard, and seen in me, do: and the God of peace shall be with you.

The problem I am seeing even in my former religious church is that they rationalize believers having gay thoughts and feelings just as long as they do not act on it but I would say no, because Jesus says we are to look to Him to clean us inside, and not entertain those desires at all because He said if a man lust after a woman, he has already committed adultery in the heart. I believe they are rationalizing it as being normal for a Christian to have without realizing they still need to go to Jesus for help even if it is daily, to lay those sinful desires aside and think on good things.

 

[ChristB4us]

There is no guarantee God will draw us back to repentance, if we fall to discipling for the devil again.

You are correct that there is no promise of God to do that but if the believer is seeing a need for deliverance from his sins, He will do it.

2 Timothy 2:22 Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23 But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections

I am fully aware of the consequence for reaping corruption by sowing to the works of the flesh, but you seem to think I am speaking for a believer to live in sin and I am sharing that with the world and the compromising churches, they may make the "desires" in themselves as something they are stuck with and so avoid the sin by just not acting on it, but Jesus wants to clean the inside too.

2 Peter 2:18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error. 19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage. 20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. 22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.

They try to overcome it by keeping that commitment and believe since it is not working, they rationalize it that this is normal and so just don't act on it BUT I'd say they should be going to Jesus Christ for help to cast those sinful thoughts & desires down to think on good things.

 

[ChristB4us]

True. Only faithful disciples of Jesus Christ make no provision of falling to temptation.

Living in this society with all the hype of sex appeal in advertisement and media entertainment, even in toys, comic books, Barbie dolls and ripped abs muscle bound action figures, it is no wonder why and how a 4 year old girl was attracted to a beautiful girl because she was brainwashed to judge by outward appearances of what appeals to the public and to the world.

Notice what else should be casting down is how we judge others by outward appearances.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh: 4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds 5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ; 6 And having in a readiness to revenge all disobedience, when your obedience is fulfilled. 7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? if any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he is Christ's, even so are we Christ's.

Only the faithful disciples of the devil fall to temptation instead.

Can it, brother. You might as well tell every believer that sin that they are a disciple of the devil and just give up keeping that commitment in being a Christian. And if you do that, tell them this instead; try applying your faith in Jesus Christ in being your Good Shepherd as in leading you away from temptations and delivering you from the evil one. Remember that part of the daily prayer to the Father that Jesus has taught?

James 4:6 But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble. 7 Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. 8 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. 9 Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. 10 Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.

No man is a born son of God and disciple of Jesus Christ, while sinning and discipling for the devil.

If we sin, and we are drawn of God unto repentance, then we can come with godly sorrow to the Advocate for the world, to be forgiven, reconciled to God and walk uprightly with Jesus as His disciple.

You preach sinning with your Christ, and I preach sinning without Jesus Christ.

Although you emphasize the first part of 1 John 3:8, I emphasize the latter part of 1 John 3:8 for habitual sinners and believers caught in habitual sins to hope in Jesus Christ for.

I would preach TO those who profess Him but yet live in sin or struggle with sin to go to Jesus Christ to deliver them from their sins and to keep them from their sins daily.

1 John 3:3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.... 8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.

2 Timothy 4:18 And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy, 25 To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.

So why judge to condemn them when you should be correcting them in Christ's love?

1 Corinthians 4:5 Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. 6 And these things, brethren, I have in a figure transferred to myself and to Apollos for your sakes; that ye might learn in us not to think of men above that which is written, that no one of you be puffed up for one against another.