Jesus, peter, keys matt 16

[donadams]

And the RC's tell me that Mary is in no way an object of worship!

never said worship

worship requires the intent to worship

 

[Arial]

thats the advise of the saints
consecrated to Mary and imploring Her intercession!

Our Lady of Victory!

“I am the Mother of fair love, and of fear, and of knowledge, and of holy hope. In me is all grace of the way and of the truth: in me is all hope of life and of virtue. Come over to me, all ye that desire me; and be filled with my fruits.” (Eccli. xxiv, 24-26)

“Let us go therefore with confidence to the throne of grace, what we may obtain mercy and find grace in seasonable time.” Heb 4:16

With this encouraging invitation the Church commences the Mass on the Feast of Mary, Mediatrix of Grace. The Divine Office starts with the same jubilant note: “Come, let us adore Christ the Redeemer, who willed that we receive all good things through Mary!”


Mary has been officially proclaimed the Throne of Grace, a title the early Fathers loved to confer on her.

Among the precious objects of the Old Testament there was one thing closely associated with the Ark of the Covenant and symbolizing Our Lady in a special way.

It was a golden crown surmounting the Ark and sheltered by the wings of two adoring Cherubs. It was called the Propitiatory or the Throne of Mercy, for the glory of God appeared over it whenever He heard the prayers of His people or blessed them.

That is what Mary is in the New Law. The words of the Archangel: “The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee and the power of the Most High shall overshadow thee,” is a perfect description of what used to take place when the majesty of God descended over the Propitiatory from time to time.

But whereas the Propitiatory of the Old Law only received the passing glory of God on rare occasions, this new Propitiatory bodily enshrined the fullness of the Divinity for nine months and possessed Him spiritually at all times and in a manner surpassing the presence of God in Heaven itself.

When Solomon had installed the Propitiatory in the Temple he had built, he declared that thenceforward all who wished for graces shall go to it and no one should approach it in vain.

But God granted many graces even apart from it. But in the New Law this Propitiatory is the only and universal means of grace.

So that the most natural thing for any one to do who wishes to receive graces from God is to approach this Divine Throne of Grace.

And that was precisely what the ignorant folk of the neighbourhood and the Wise Men from far off did when not the majesty of God but His very substance appeared first on earth. Lk 2:10-16

But Mary is infinitely more than the Propitiatory. For she is not merely the throne from which God administers His mercy and grace, but she is under God the very Queen and Mistress of the whole economy of grace.

Her central position between God and creatures and her extraordinary relations with all of them demand that the whole order of grace be somehow centred round her.

thks

This is the Apologetics thread, not the Catholic thread. Apologetics is something Catholic doctrines never bother with.

 

[Carbon]

not a goddess but the means God chose to reverse the curse and bring the blessings of "Our salvation" Jesus Christ

God did so thru Mary!

Jesus just wasn't good enough huh?
Not surprising, he never is in your false religion.

 

[Arial]

not a goddess but the means God chose to reverse the curse and bring the blessings of "Our salvation" Jesus Christ

God did so thru Mary!

God did so by the Holy Spirit. The Bible does not tell us why Mary was the chosen virgin to bring forth the King. But this is the Apologetics forum, not the Catholic forum. So if you are going to engage in it according to Catholic doctrine, you need to do something besides make assertions and quote scriptures that the Catholic denomination has self interpreted for their own glory.

 

[Carbon]

never said worship

worship requires the intent to worship

Wake up Don, before it's too late.

 

[makesends]

never said worship

worship requires the intent to worship

What??? You actually engage in debate (of a sort)?

No, worship does not require intent to worship.

"EVERY knee will bow, and every tongue confess" whether they like it or not.

 

[makesends]

reply all

(((The Ark of the covenant)))

(a type of Mary the Ark of the new covenant)

incorruptible wood (ex 25:19) refers to Her immaculate conception in grace Lk 1:49,

covered with pure gold (ex 25:11) refers to Her great purity & charity or love of God.

(contents of the Ark)

"testamony or ten commandments" (ex 25:8)
angels delivers the word of God (testimony) to Mary

"the mana"

In Mary was Christ the living bread come down from heaven.
(Jn 6:48-51)

"Aaron’s rod"

a symbol of Christ the high priest. (heb 8:1)

(heb 9:4 Which had the golden censer, and the ark of the covenant overlaid round about with gold, wherein was the golden pot that had manna, and Aaron's rod that budded, and the tables of the covenant)

In Mary the new Ark was Christ the living mana come down from heaven, Christ the fulfillment of the law and the eternal Word of God, Christ the high priest.

angels (ex 25:18-20) angel appeared to Mary (Lk 1:28-38)

mercy seat ex 25:20

God overdhadows the mercy seat (ex 25:22) (lev 16:2)

God the Holy Spirit overshadows Mary (Lk 1:35)

Mary the Ark of the new covenant!


Our Lady of victory!
the Ark of the new covenant!

let us take the holy Ark into battle and the gates of hell shall not prevail!


Numbers 10:35
And it came to pass, when the ark set forward, that Moses said, Rise up, Lord, and let thine enemies be scattered; and let them that hate thee flee before thee.

Joshua 3:3
And they commanded the people, saying, When ye see the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, and the priests the Levites bearing it, then ye shall remove from your place, and go after it.

1 Samuel 4:3
And when the people were come into the camp, the elders of Israel said, Wherefore hath the Lord smitten us to day before the Philistines? Let us fetch the ark of the covenant of the Lord out of Shiloh unto us, that, when it cometh among us, it may save us out of the hand of our enemies.

1 Samuel 6:13
And they of Bethshemesh were reaping their wheat harvest in the valley: and they lifted up their eyes, and saw the ark, and rejoiced to see it.

True Christians rejoice with Holy Mother Mary!









gen 3:15 Her seed not Adam's seed
virgin birth

satan cannot corrupt "the woman" enmity "total war"



rom 3:10-12

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

all is a general term and does not include every individual person, children under the age of reason, mentally ill or those lacking free will, etc. are not included reference Mk 1:5 all does mot mean everything single person

matt 1:19 Just man
Lk 1:6 blameless "rightous"

also Paul is quoting psalm 14:3-5

3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

4 Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread, and call not upon the Lord.

5 There were they in great fear: for God is in the generation of the righteous.

does not apply cos Mary was not created at this time!

satan cannot corrupt "the woman" (Mary) enmity "total war"

Lk 1:28 Hail Mary; "full of grace"!

calling Mary “full of grace,” the angel was acknowledging that the Blessed Mother was “filled with the presence of God.”

verified by the words:

"the Lord is with thee" and
"blessed art thou among woman"

Lk 1:28 And the angel entered to her, and said, Hail, full of grace; the Lord is with thee; blessed be thou among women.

The Ark of the covenant is the dwelling place of God's presence among His people.

Exalting Mary to a status above us plebs, is worship; you are ascribing divinity to her, and placing superstitious trust in her supposed position of your (RCC) own making. That is idolatry. Worship.

 

[Carbon]

Exalting Mary to a status above us plebs, is worship; you are ascribing divinity to her, and placing superstitious trust in her supposed position of your (RCC) own making. That is idolatry. Worship.

Indeed it is.

 

[makesends]

did the Israelites worship the Ark of the covenant?
are you accusing them of doing so?

Well, actually, I'm pretty sure some of them did.

why accuse us?

Behold! a great marvel, a glory, a revelation, a wonder! Behold!

"Behold the Ark of the new covenant prepared by God with the power of grace, to receive the eternal word"!

Lk 1:38 "Behold the handmaid of the Lord", the immaculate conception, the one to be assumed into heaven, the perpetual virgin, & the mother of God, Mary most holy graced by God"! Lk 1:49

Mary received the eternal word three times

From the angel Mary received the eternal word in Her mind and believed!

Spiritually in Her heart Mary received the eternal word filled with love"!

In her womb by the power of the Spirit Mary received the eternal word in Her sacred womb and hoped for the redemption of the world!

Three things are eternal! 1 cor 13:13
Faith, Hope, & Charity!

False equivalence, eloquence, exaltation of mere humanity, idolatry —these do not equal debate. If you have to, make one point at a time, (but don't ask leading questions.) Show your logical progression from one agreed-upon premise to the first point, then proceed. Make a flowchart if you have to, but stop with the worship-speak. —It doesn't help your case.

 

[Carbon]

Exalting Mary to a status above us plebs, is worship; you are ascribing divinity to her, and placing superstitious trust in her supposed position of your (RCC) own making. That is idolatry. Worship.

Hey brother, you are absolutely right. Whether or not @donadams knows, the popes and the RCC leaders make a distinction between latreia and douleia (not sure if you are familiar with these terms?) and Huperdouleia

They claim Latreia is a service that one may only render to God. Douleia on the other hand is a service one may render to angels and deceased saints.
And then there is Huperdouleia which is a somewhat higher service than that of angels and dead saints. This they render to the human nature of Christ and the Virgin Mary.

 

[Carbon]

I think we all agree that Jesus Christ is the rock of salvation and that this is another subject different than the rock upon which Christ builds His church. (No reference to the Catholic Church)

Is the rock upon which Christ builds His church the confession of Peter or the person of Peter?

Thanks

Augustine on Matthew 16:18​

Augustine wrote The Retractations late in his life to correct points expressed in his own writings. Here, Augustine corrects his earlier opinion that Peter was the rock of Matthew 16:18. According to Augustine the rock is Christ or Peter’s confession which pointed to the person of Christ:

"In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable."

 

[makesends]

Augustine on Matthew 16:18​

Augustine wrote The Retractations late in his life to correct points expressed in his own writings. Here, Augustine corrects his earlier opinion that Peter was the rock of Matthew 16:18. According to Augustine the rock is Christ or Peter’s confession which pointed to the person of Christ:

"In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable."

Right! And that is the sense of the grammar. The play on words specifically denies Peter as being that rock upon whom the church was built.

 

[Carbon]

Right! And that is the sense of the grammar. The play on words specifically denies Peter as being that rock upon whom the church was built.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

Augustine on Matthew 16:18​

Augustine wrote The Retractations late in his life to correct points expressed in his own writings. Here, Augustine corrects his earlier opinion that Peter was the rock of Matthew 16:18. According to Augustine the rock is Christ or Peter’s confession which pointed to the person of Christ:

"In a passage in this book, I said about the Apostle Peter: ‘On him as on a rock the Church was built’...But I know that very frequently at a later time, I so explained what the Lord said: ‘Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,’ that it be understood as built upon Him whom Peter confessed saying: ‘Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,’ and so Peter, called after this rock, represented the person of the Church which is built upon this rock, and has received ‘the keys of the kingdom of heaven.’ For, ‘Thou art Peter’ and not ‘Thou art the rock’ was said to him. But ‘the rock was Christ,’ in confessing whom, as also the whole Church confesses, Simon was called Peter. But let the reader decide which of these two opinions is the more probable."

Augustine never thinks of Peter as the rock. Jesus, after all, did not in fact call him the rock...but ‘Rocky.’ The rock on which he would build his Church was, for Augustine, both Christ himself and Peter’s faith, representing the faith of the Church

 

[Carbon]

The Rock is Christ. Do a word study of all scripture and see the Rock.

Amen!

 

[Carbon]

The context reveals that people were divided as to who Christ was. No different than today.
Who was he? Who is he?
Peter’s confession ought to settle the issue, but it has not.
Jesus is the son of the living God. If you know that, he knows you.
Do you believe it?
No, they don’t.
They say he is God.
No, Jesus has a God. His God is his Father.
He is the son of the living God.
Believe it or not.
The living God is his God and Father.

You obviously don't understand the context or words in plain, black and white.

 

[makesends]

The rock on which he would build his Church was, for Augustine, both Christ himself and Peter’s faith, representing the faith of the Church

Which faith, as we know, is not generated by Peter, nor by the Church, but by God himself. (Eph 2)

 

[Carbon]

Is Jesus a man?

Thks

What does scripture teach?

 

[Carbon]

Ok

Christ build the church upon Himself?

Why do He need apostles?
Eph 2:20

How can the church be on earth if Christ ascended to heaven?

Thks

You make it easy for Christians to debate you. And those questions you ask Don? Don't you truly desire the truth?

 

[makesends]

You obviously don't understand the context or words in plain, black and white.

Amen that.

After all the protests and retorts, in the end, the question is whom does Christ say he is, and whom do the apostles say he is, and whom does Scripture say he is.

Too many places to be argued away, Old Testament and New. Further, as CS Lewis shows, if Jesus Christ is not God himself, then he is a madman or a liar. The one thing he cannot be is a mere great man. (Nor, I add, an angel).

The fact that logic demands that only God can take the place of sinners, is not of itself sufficient —that is, it deals in matters too deep for us, though we can see that it must be so. But the witness of Scripture, and of the Spirit of God within us, and the relationship so full of worship, places him as no other, but God.