Issues with a doctrine(s) of grace?

[Carbon]

Is there any of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) that you did at one time, or maybe still do have issues with?
One you just can’t settle with or wish there was a way around it.
Have you tried and tested it in hopes to prove it wrong?
This question(s) is mainly for Calvinists but of course Arminians are welcome to answer and discuss as well.

 

[Carbon]

Personally I have the most issues with both limited Atonement and Total Depravity.
I have spent literally 7 years trying to get around or even prove Limited Atonement non biblical. As of late, I have added Total Depravity to the list.

I also believe the five are in perfect harmony with each other. If you remove just one of the 5 points, the whole system collapses.

I think also, it is so much easier to accept the Arminian 5 points. After all, their belief of total depravity (different than Calvinism) can be conformed to agree with unlimited (universal) atonement. Since it is an inconsistent system with scripture it makes it much easier to accept (humanly speaking) the doctrines since they are not in harmony with scripture.

 

[civic]

Ok I will take a swing at it

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also is man is so utterly depraved , dead ( corpse like ) , deaf, blind state etc...... then why would Jesus have to hide the truth from the dead, deaf, blind with parables ? That would be unnecessary since they cannot possibly understand anything id they were dead like a corpse.

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?


Romans 1
The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.

24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.

26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done.

Several reasons why I think the doctrine of TD is not true

1-they suppressed the truth- one has to know the truth to suppress the truth
2-they knew God, He was self evident to them
3-God was understood to them
4-they exchanged the truth
5-they did not retain the knowledge of God, it was not worthwhile for them
6- Therefor from all the above facts God declares 3 times that He gave them over
7- God doesn't need to give anyone over who is already completely unable, enable, completely and totally depraved with no ability's to do otherwise
8- parables would not be necessary if TD were true and men are in corpse like state by birth.

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

Totally Depraved would imply that one is never able to do what is right and lawful; scripture states that man naturally can keep the law.

 

[CrowCross]

Personally I have the most issues with both limited Atonement and Total Depravity.

I heard a preacher once preach.....some people liken salvation to a man in the middle of a lake drowning...just before he goes under for what would be the last time a life preserver is thrown to him...and all he has to do is choose to reach out and grab it...and get saved.

In reality I believe it is more likened to this...The same man is dead and lying on the bottom of the lake. God has to jump in and drag him to the shore and restore life to him.

 

[Ritajanice]

Hey @civic ...I liked reading your post...if I have any questions, can I ask you?

If I don’t understand, I will also ask what it means...hope that’s ok, I have much to learn...

 

[CrowCross]

Ok I will take a swing at it

If man is totally depraved, cannot seek God, cannot think a right though about God, cannot know truth as the "T" in tulip infers, then why did God have to say 3 times He had to give these unbelieving reprobates over ?

Also is man is so utterly depraved , dead ( corpse like ) , deaf, blind state etc...... then why would Jesus have to hide the truth from the dead, deaf, blind with parables ? That would be unnecessary since they cannot possibly understand anything id they were dead like a corpse.

Also how can these reprobates suppress the truth since they are dead and incapable of knowing the truth ?

It can get complicated pretty quick...In reply I can ask why did Jesus say...

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

 

[Arial]

Is there any of the doctrines of grace (TULIP) that you did at one time, or maybe still do have issues with?
One you just can’t settle with or wish there was a way around it.
Have you tried and tested it in hopes to prove it wrong?
This question(s) is mainly for Calvinists but of course Arminians are welcome to answer and discuss as well.

I didn't so much have trouble with any of it as I needed to find out what each "letter" meant, see it put into perspective with the scriptures. It is all quite shocking at first because it is so alien from what is being taught mostly. What I had the most trouble with is how man's responsibility fit into the picture. The acronym itself is misleading to the point of automatic misunderstanding. It causes people to pull back instantly and never look into it.

The learning however never stops.

 

[civic]

It can get complicated pretty quick...In reply I can ask why did Jesus say...

John 6:65 And he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 6:44 No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day.

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

 

[Carbon]

Hey @civic ...I liked reading your post...if I have any questions, can I ask you?

If I don’t understand, I will also ask what it means...hope that’s ok, I have much to learn...

Keep in mind civic is a synergist. He believes it comes down to man making a decision for Christ. I’m sure he will tell you this also, I just want to make sure you knew and from what perspective you will be hearing it from.

 

[Carbon]

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

In context it’s talking all men, not just the Jews. Thought you knew that.

 

[civic]

In context it’s talking all men, not just the Jews. Thought you knew that.

here is what the Calvinist Barnes said :

"will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement - the strongest that can be presented to all men to come to me. "

 

[Carbon]

here is what the Calvinist Barnes said :

"will make the way open by the cross, so that all men may come. I will provide a way which shall present a strong motive or inducement - the strongest that can be presented to all men to come to me. "

Yes, he agrees with me.

 

[Carbon]

I understand some of these doctrines can be difficult, God’s ways are not our ways and these are solid food and can cause many to choke but we do have a sovereigns God.

As I said the most difficult to me are T & L. Mainly because I have 6 daughters.
Those who have a good understanding of the doctrines could probably see why.

I just can’t settle and get peace on these.

 

[CrowCross]

And I would respond with John 12:32 with the same use of draw with all men, all people, everyone depending on the translation.

John 12:32
And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”

Draw in what way? Salvation? Judgement?

I'm sure you understand the word "drawing" often has a meaning of being "dragged".

 

[CrowCross]

I understand some of these doctrines can be difficult, God’s ways are not our ways and these are solid food and can cause many to choke but we do have a sovereigns God.

As I said the most difficult to me are T & L. Mainly because I have 6 daughters.
Those who have a good understanding of the doctrines could probably see why.

I just can’t settle and get peace on these.

If one or several of your daughters don't "accept" Christ as their Lord and Savior....will you then blame yourself for not presenting the message of salvation to them adequately?

 

[Ritajanice]

@Carbon ....6 daughters!....you’re outnumbered then,

 

[Ritajanice]

If one or several of your daughters don't "accept" Christ as their Lord and Savior....will you then blame yourself for not presenting the message of salvation to them adequately?

May I ask, what has @Carbon not presenting the message of salvation to them adequately...got to do with becoming Born Again?

How does one also accept Christ/ Holy Spirit into their hearts/ spirit?

How do we accept to be regenerated ?

 

[Ritajanice]

Why on earth would anyone believe that God drawing us to Jesus...to some means dragging...seriously, I can’t get my head around that one.

​

John 6:44 ESV / 81 helpful votes​

No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day.

John 12:32 ESV / 51 helpful votes​

And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

John 6:37 ESV / 37 helpful votes​

All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

 

[Arial]

I understand some of these doctrines can be difficult, God’s ways are not our ways and these are solid food and can cause many to choke but we do have a sovereigns God.

As I said the most difficult to me are T & L. Mainly because I have 6 daughters.
Those who have a good understanding of the doctrines could probably see why.

I just can’t settle and get peace on these.

Very understandable. I have a son, two grandchildren, and two great grandchildren that I am not certain of. I have put the gospel before them, and they are appreciative but they don't like to talk about it so I don't know where they stand. There is a controlling factor in the family, that of my daughter-in-law. Her idea of Christianity was so distorted into legalism as a Mennonite that she has a dread of anyone in her family becoming "religious". She feels she would be judged and her husband and children would become all self righteous and holier than thou.

My granddaughter at one time was looking and attended a church where she said she was saved. And she may have been, for she got that immediate "I must tell everyone!" and began with her family. Her mother discouraged her gospel preaching. So I pray. God hears. And I ask for doors to be opened for them to hear for them to hear from me or someone. Voddie actually has some good videos on this subject. He has nine children.

And my grandson, there have been glimmers of light given to Him from God. I give them each a Bible.

 

[Ritajanice]

I have 3 Sons...none are Born Again....I pray they become Born Again....if it’s not the will of God, then there isn’t much I can do about it is there?

Apart from praying.......God is the one who chooses his children. we don’t....I don’t believe we have any say in the matter..putting it ver simply.

I NEVER chose God to birth me in the Spirit.....he uses me though, for his purposes and he certainly uses me to spread the word and Glorify His Name and his Name only......