Is Lazarus and the Rich Man a parable?

[Eleanor]

I see that as from our point of view. From sleep to waking at the resurrection.
I could be wrong.

Check it out. . .the text refers to being at home with the Lord apart from his body.

We will have our body at the resurrection.

 

[makesends]

I see that as from our point of view. From sleep to waking at the resurrection.
I could be wrong.

It seems to me more than likely that for the dead, there is no time until they are resurrected. We might call the time we might count until the resurrection, as "sleep" for them, but I'm in favor of the notion that from God's point-of-view, there is no waiting from the moment he spoke the Bride of Christ into existence, for her to be there with him in Heaven. I tend to disagree with @Eleanor then, concerning them being disembodied. WE might consider it that way for the sake of our minds, but I think it is more accurate that the dead in Christ are "immediately" glorified and at home with the Lord.

This does not disagree with Scripture, that posits a progression of events temporally. This notion just claims that what is temporal is only what it took to accomplish what God spoke into completed fact.

(But I'm guessing that the real truth of the matter is beyond any of us. )

 

[makesends]

This "parable" is found in Luke 16... but it is really a parable?

The beggar in this passage is named Lazarus. Elsewhere in the gospels, Lazarus is a real person - a friend of Jesus. Jesus stays at his house, mourns his death, and even brings back him back from the dead. Is this the same Lazarus? We can't prove whether it was or not. But at the end of the "parable," the rich man asks for Lazarus to be resurrected and sent to his brothers. Is this a hint that it's the same person?

We are told that the Rich Man was "clothed in purple and fine linen." Purple is typically reserved for royalty. Linen is the wardrobe of the priests. And fine purple linen is the wardrobe of the High Priest (Exo 28). The Rich Man also tells us that he has five brothers (v.28). Now the High Priest at the time was Caiaphas, who did indeed have five brothers, all of which famously served as High Priests in the 1st century. It seems like a foregone conclusion that the Rich Man is either Caiaphas or one of his brothers.

So the parable most likely refers to two real people. Is it really a parable?

-Jarrod

Interesting thoughts.

I find it somewhat disturbing that we think it important to categorize this as one thing or another. The fact there may be real elements to the story doesn't signify anything in particular. It seems likely to me that it is only a story, told for the obvious morals given and references to human character, and for a prophecy of sorts, and who knows what else. But it seems to me built also upon what were probably common notions concerning hell and heaven, at the time.

Do we have any Scriptural reference elsewhere supporting the notion of a chasm across which one can yell with those on the other side? Is Abraham given some sort of position of authority? Sounds like a Jewish notion.

Does a proper hermeneutic demand that we treat parables differently from stories? Who made that rule? Seems to me common sense should prevail here. If there IS an added element or two, then it is only a richer story, with added thoughts, (on the order of him saying that if one rises from the dead they still would not believe).

 

[Eleanor]

It seems to me more than likely that for the dead, there is no time until they are resurrected. We might call the time we might count until the resurrection, as "sleep" for them, but I'm in favor of the notion that from God's point-of-view, there is no waiting from the moment he spoke the Bride of Christ into existence, for her to be there with him in Heaven. I tend to disagree with @Eleanor then, concerning them being disembodied. WE might consider it that way for the sake of our minds, but I think it is more accurate that the dead in Christ are "immediately" glorified and at home with the Lord.

Does not glorification refer to the physically resurrected spiritual (sinless, immortal, transformed, 1 Co 15:42-44) bodies of the saints?

This does not disagree with Scripture, that posits a progression of events temporally. This notion just claims that what is temporal is only what it took to accomplish what God spoke into completed fact.

(But I'm guessing that the real truth of the matter is beyond any of us. )

So at the resurrection and rapture where
the dead in Christ rise and the living saints on earth are then snatched up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16-17),
you see the dead in Christ as coming down from heaven rather than rising up from the grave when the living saints on earth are snatched up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16)?

 

[makesends]

Check it out. . .the text refers to being at home with the Lord apart from his body.

We will have our body at the resurrection.

But what makes it a time difference, what makes it time dependant? Is it not for the sake of our point of view that it is said that way?

Alternately, I see the statement as teaching that though there will be an event (the resurrection) in time (or at the end of time) we should not consider it logically necessary that one who dies is in limbo or asleep or some such construction just because the resurrection hasn't happened yet.

 

[makesends]

Does not glorification refer to the physically resurrected spiritual (sinless, immortal, transformed, 1 Co 15:42-44) bodies of the saints?

Yes. I'm not sure why you ask. Apparently it seems to you that what I have said would contradict that. I don't see any contradiction, unless according to the assumptions that temporally dependent thinking puts on it.

So at the resurrection and rapture where
the dead in Christ rise and the living saints on earth are then snatched up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16-17),
you see the dead in Christ coming down from heaven rather than rising up from the grave when the living saints on earth are snatched up with them to meet the Lord in the air (1 Th 4:16)?

Well, no, I don't think we see the dead in Christ "coming down" and joining their bodies. We only see the fact that they are whole. WHEN we see what we see is irrelevant to the "fact of".

Granted, this is just what I think, and, tentatively, I believe it, in that it, (I think), more accurately represents the way God sees it. But I don't know.

 

[Eleanor]

Yes. I'm not sure why you ask. Apparently it seems to you that what I have said would contradict that. I don't see any contradiction, unless according to the assumptions that temporally dependent thinking puts on it.

Well, no, I don't think we see the dead in Christ "coming down" and joining their bodies. We only see the fact that they are whole. WHEN we see what we see is irrelevant to the "fact of".

Granted, this is just what I think, and, tentatively, I believe it, in that it, (I think), more accurately represents the way God sees it. But I don't know.

Works for me. . .

 

[Mr GLee]

Does a proper hermeneutic demand that we treat parables differently from stories? Who made that rule? Seems to me common sense should prevail here. If there IS an added element or two, then it is only a richer story, with added thoughts, (on the order of him saying that if one rises from the dead they still would not believe).

Parables are prophecy.

They are designed to teach mankind how to seek after the invisible eternal things of God. Comparing the temporal historical to the unseen eternal .They must be mixed or no gospel rest. . the interpretation of Christ it remains a mystery

The mixing recipe need to rightly divide the parables

2 Corinthians 4:18King James Version18 While we look not at the things which are seen, but at the things which are not seen: for the things which are seen are temporal; but the things which are not seen are eternal.

Luke 16 beginning in chapter 15 a series of parable Teaching believers how to rightly divide the mammon, wisdom of the world as false riches and the wisdom of Christ. .Called all things writen in the law and prophets. Used three times in the last parable as a summary of the 5 . No man can serve two good teaching masters as one Lord . Again the Mammon wisdom of men and the wisdom of Christ (sola scriptura)

Luke 16 :29 Abraham saith unto him, They have Moses and the prophets;(sola scriptura) let them hear them.And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went unto them from the dead, they will repent. And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets,(sola scriptura) Neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Luke 9 again a series of parable hiding the gospel understanding .The apostles were amazed and wondered at it meaning hid from them .

Luke 9 :42-50 And as he was yet a coming, the devil threw him down, and tare him. And Jesus rebuked the unclean spirit, and healed the child, and delivered him again to his father. And they were all amazed (not beleive) at the mighty power of God. But while they wondered every one at all things which Jesus did, he said unto his disciples, Let these sayings sink down into your ears: for the Son of man shall be delivered into the hands of men.But they understood not this saying, and it was hid from them, that they perceived it not: and they feared to ask him of that saying. Then there arose a reasoning among them, which of them should be greatest. ( electing a new Alfa dog .They must of thought Jesus went off the deep end . . .sounded like gibberish to them ) And Jesus, perceiving the thought of their heart, took a child, and set him by him,And said unto them, Whosoever shall receive this child in my name receiveth me: and whosoever shall receive me receiveth him that sent me: for he that is least among you all, the same shall be great. And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us. And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

They as sign and wonder seekers not prophecy but that which a evil "uncovered mankind" seek after )They thought Jesus tricked them. They thought he was going to the house of the the Jews but went to the gentiles Not understanding the parable they sought after their lying oral tradition of mankind . Demanding God bring down fire and make them disappear .The foundation of Paganism "out of sight out of mind" as in who needs faith the unseen eternal things ?
.
He rebuked them exposing what kind of spirit they were of .The temporal. . spirit of this world . Not the Holy Spirit of Christ the husband .not of this world

Luke 9 :51-55And it came to pass, when the time was come that he should be received up, he stedfastly set his face to go to Jerusalem,And sent messengers before his face: and they went, and entered into a village of the Samaritans, to make ready for him.And they did not receive him, because his face was as though he would go to Jerusalem.And when his disciples James and John saw this, they said, Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did? But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.