Is Lazarus and the Rich Man a parable?

[CherubRam]

??????????

Care to evidence that position given the facts....

can you see how Post 19 contradicts itself? In one sentence the claim is that the passage has no parabolic qualities but in the next sentence there is the report of parabolic qualities = it's not a Judaic teaching and there is no hell in Judaism. Those would be parabolic attributes!

And yet Jesus is teaching it.

I agree. I have posted extensively on how Sheol is the Hebraic/Judaic perspective, hos it is likely Jesus spoke in Aramaic and did not use the language of "he" or "hades," AND how Jesus, a Jew, taught a much different paradigm. That does not change the fact the teaching has to do with the grave and Judaism did have beliefs about the grave that were incorrect.

Hmmmm.... That means either the gospel record is unreliable, or the inspired author was not inspired and is lying.

Hell Luke 16:19.

I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint.

The Rich Man and Lazarus
Luke 16:19. "There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. 20At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores 21and longing to eat what fell from the rich man's table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores.

Wealth, comfort, poverty, and suffering have nothing to do with a person’s salvation.

22"The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24So he called to him, 'Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

The word messenger is replaced with the word angel. And assuming that this is a parable, there would be no need for Lazarus to be carried to Abraham, before the resurrection. As for being in Hell and torment and agony; that contradicts the verse that says the dead know nothing. It also is a contradiction where scripture says that Yahwah kills the condemned. In regards to the water on the finger; that would evaporate before it even got to a person.

25"But Abraham replied, 'Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony. 26And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.'

Again I say to you that wealth and poverty has nothing to do with the resurrection of the righteous. There is one truth in all of this, and that there is a chasm that has been set in place; and that is called death of the condemned, which are killed by Yahwah. There is no life for them afterward.

27"He answered, 'Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father's house, 28for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.'

29"Abraham replied, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.'

30" 'No, father Abraham,' he said, 'but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.'
31"He said to him, 'If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.' "

These are obviously the words of a dim wit, and not the words of an ancient being. No place in these verses is credit given to Yahwah, but only to Moses and the prophets; which would be unlike Yahshua to exclude the Father in matters of life and death.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion. Why would Yahshua use a nonexistent biblical teaching for which he never explains afterward? Before the return from Babylon, Judaism never taught the concept of hell. But after the return from Babylon, the Hellenistic and Kabbalistic Jews began to introduce Hell into Judaism.

Yahshua never identified the story as a parable, and never explained the relevance as he did in other legitimate parables.
Yahshua, being an ancient being full of knowledge and wisdom, would have had the good sense to explain the new concept. Obviously the story of “The Rich Man and Lazarus” is the words of some man introducing the Pagan concept of Hell.

Genesis 18:25
Far be it from you to do such a thing—to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike. Far be it from you! Will not the Judge of all the earth do right?"

Luke 20:16
"What then will the owner of the vineyard do to them? He will come and kill those tenants and give the vineyard to others." When the people heard this, they said, "May this never be!"

Ecclesiastes 9:5
For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.

Revelation 20:14
Then death and Hades (Grave) were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
If death and the grave, or even Hades is done away with, then how can there be anyone ALIVE in Hades.

 

[CherubRam]

In Greek mythology Hades is the Greek god of the dead and the underworld. Hades was the eldest son of Cronus and Rhea.

• Matthew 11:23
  And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades. For if the miracles that were performed in you had been performed in Sodom, it would have remained to this day.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Matthew 16:18
  And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 10:15
  And you, Capernaum, will you be lifted to the heavens? No, you will go down to Hades.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Luke 16:23
  In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Revelation 1:18
  I am the Living One; I was dead, and now look, I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Revelation 6:8
  I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Revelation 20:13
  The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations
• Revelation 20:14
  Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death.
  In Context | Full Chapter | Other Translations

 

[CherubRam]

Greek goddess called Angel

In Greek mythology, Angelos (Ancient Greek: Ἄγγελος) or Angelia (Ἀγγελία) was a daughter of Zeus and Hera who became known as a chthonic deity. The world of the dead (Hell) is her realm of influence, and was assigned an epithet katachthonia ("she of the underworld").



In Ancient Greek; angels known as ἄγγελος (ángelos). In Latin: angels are called "angelus."

(Greek mythology) The daughter of Zeus and Hera, and goddess of the Underworld.

ANGELIA was the personified spirit (daimona) of messages, tidings and proclamations. The English word "angel" derives the same ancient Greek word.



Angel Angelos Adopted biblical term

The Greek term Angelos did not originate with Judaism or Christianity, but was ordinary Greek, in which it can designate either a human messenger or a heavenly “divine” one. The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach,” and thereby became part of ancient Jewish and later ancient Christian language also.

Angelos. (Greek mythology) Daughter of Zeus and Hera, and a goddess of the Underworld. Angel was the messenger of Hell.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Greek goddess called Angel

In Greek mythology, Angelos (Ancient Greek: Ἄγγελος) or Angelia (Ἀγγελία) was a daughter of Zeus and Hera who became known as a chthonic deity. The world of the dead (Hell) is her realm of influence, and was assigned an epithet katachthonia ("she of the underworld").



In Ancient Greek; angels known as ἄγγελος (ángelos). In Latin: angels are called "angelus."

(Greek mythology) The daughter of Zeus and Hera, and goddess of the Underworld.

ANGELIA was the personified spirit (daimona) of messages, tidings and proclamations. The English word "angel" derives the same ancient Greek word.



Angel Angelos Adopted biblical term

The Greek term Angelos did not originate with Judaism or Christianity, but was ordinary Greek, in which it can designate either a human messenger or a heavenly “divine” one. The term was adopted into the 3rd century B.C. Greek Old Testament of the bible as a translation in place of the Hebrew word “malach,” and thereby became part of ancient Jewish and later ancient Christian language also.

Angelos. (Greek mythology) Daughter of Zeus and Hera, and a goddess of the Underworld. Angel was the messenger of Hell.

That all may be true, but... that isn't how the Bible uses the word angel.

If you were to peruse the LXX (Greek Old Testament), you would find the word aggelos used simply as a translation of the Hebrew mala'ak. Mala'ak simply means messenger, and is not any kind of god or demon.

 

[Josheb]

Hell Luke 16:19.

I give thanks to you Heavenly Father for hearing my complaint............................................................................................................................................................................................................
..........................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Parable.

This thread is about whether or not account about Lazarus and the rich man is a parable or not. This thread is NOT about hell and/or whether hell is Judaic teaching.

Hell is a pagan belief and part of the Pagan religion.

I completely agree (and said so).

That's one of the things indicating the story is a parable and not factual history.

 

[CherubRam]

Parable.

This thread is about whether or not account about Lazarus and the rich man is a parable or not. This thread is NOT about hell and/or whether hell is Judaic teaching.

I completely agree (and said so).

That's one of the things indicating the story is a parable and not factual history.

The story is not a parable, and it is not factual. It is also a contradiction to Judaism. Those are most certainly not Christ words, because those are the words of a dimwit, who knows nothing about Judaism.

 

[CherubRam]

That all may be true, but... that isn't how the Bible uses the word angel.

If you were to peruse the LXX (Greek Old Testament), you would find the word aggelos used simply as a translation of the Hebrew mala'ak. Mala'ak simply means messenger, and is not any kind of god or demon.

You may not be aware of this, but men translate the bible. And unfortunately they do no always do a good job.

 

[Josheb]

The story is not a parable, and it is not factual.

Parables are not factual.

It is also a contradiction to Judaism.

No one said it was, and no one has argued a parable could not contradict Judaism. I can think of at least two parables that directly contradict the Mosaic Law and Judaism.

Those are most certainly not Christ words, because those are the words of a dimwit, who knows nothing about Judaism.

And yet they are explicitly attributed to Jesus.

Luke 16:1
Now he was also saying to the disciples...............

And the Pharisees ridiculed what they over heard,

Luke 16:14
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were ridiculing him.

And then Jesus turned from his disciples and spoke directly to the ridiculing Pharisees.

Luke 16:15
And he said to them....................

And the story of Lazarus and the rich man follows,

Luke 16:15-21ff
And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery. "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores...............

Luke says those words came from Jesus. Was Luke writing falsely and we thereby have reason to question the entirety of all scripture? Or are you mistaken? Those are the only two logical options. Which is it?

 

[CherubRam]

Parables are not factual.

No one said it was, and no one has argued a parable could not contradict Judaism. I can think of at least two parables that directly contradict the Mosaic Law and Judaism.

And yet they are explicitly attributed to Jesus.

Luke 16:1
Now he was also saying to the disciples...............

And the Pharisees ridiculed what they over heard,

Luke 16:14
Now the Pharisees, who were lovers of money, were listening to all these things and were ridiculing him.

And then Jesus turned from his disciples and spoke directly to the ridiculing Pharisees.

Luke 16:15
And he said to them....................

And the story of Lazarus and the rich man follows,

Luke 16:15-21ff
And he said to them, "You are those who justify yourselves in the sight of men, but God knows your hearts; for that which is highly esteemed among men is detestable in the sight of God. "The Law and the Prophets were proclaimed until John; since that time the gospel of the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is forcing his way into it. "But it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one stroke of a letter of the Law to fail. "Everyone who divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery, and he who marries one who is divorced from a husband commits adultery. "Now there was a rich man, and he habitually dressed in purple and fine linen, joyously living in splendor every day. "And a poor man named Lazarus was laid at his gate, covered with sores, and longing to be fed with the crumbs which were falling from the rich man's table; besides, even the dogs were coming and licking his sores...............

Luke says those words came from Jesus. Was Luke writing falsely and we thereby have reason to question the entirety of all scripture? Or are you mistaken? Those are the only two logical options. Which is it?

Luke 16:19 to 31 is a late addition to the bible.

 

[Mr GLee]

Luke 16:19-31 is not a parable, and it has no parabolic qualities. Nor is it a teaching in Judaism. And neither is Hell a teaching in Judaism. Someone is putting words in Christ mouth.

Really ??? How would you know if those qualities were parabolic?

What are some of the words that are not used in a parable as metaphors? are they eyes, finger . . water . . .tongue . . .fire ??

How are they used when we know it is a parable?

Teaching in Judaism as doctrines of men? What does the Bible God's living word teach?

Mankind six foot under rapid decomposition destroying all flesh. And God is coming with to him with a glass of cold water to cool down his jaw bones.? I would be interested on how someone could literalize the spirit understanding.

Does God keep on bringing cold water to the poor suffering dead man ? or is the parable teaching us he had no gospel by communing with the dead relatives (necromancy) patron saints?

Proverbs 25:25As cold waters to a thirsty soul, so is good news from a far country.

Jeremiah 18:14 Will a man leave the snow of Lebanon which cometh from the rock of the field? or shall the cold flowing waters that come from another place be forsaken?

Matthew 10:42 And whosoever shall give to drink unto one of these little ones a cup of cold water only in the name of a disciple, verily I say unto you, he shall in no wise lose his reward.

 

[Josheb]

Luke 16:19 to 31 is a late addition to the bible.

How about "Luke 16:19-31 is [questioned as] a late addition to the Bible"?


Whether apocryphal or not does not change the answer to the question of whether or not the story is a parable. Even if made up it's still a parable. It's authenticity has nothing to do with its parabolic nature and the argument to the contrary is a red herring.

 

[CherubRam]

That all may be true, but... that isn't how the Bible uses the word angel.

If you were to peruse the LXX (Greek Old Testament), you would find the word aggelos used simply as a translation of the Hebrew mala'ak. Mala'ak simply means messenger, and is not any kind of god or demon.

I agree. Mallaak simply means messenger and nothing else.

 

[Mr GLee]

I agree. Mallaak simply means messenger and nothing else.

Yes how beautiful are the feet of the apostles shod with the gospel message of peace .Abel the apostle the first listed martyr.

There Cain sent as false apostles with false prophecy murdered his brother . In that way the father of lies had his beginning with Cain giving Cain lying thoughts when approached with the Spirit of truth . . I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

John 8:44King James Version Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

Genesis 4:9 And the Lord said unto Cain, Where is Abel thy brother? And he said, I know not: Am I my brother's keeper?

The bible in some translations have made a invisible entity as some sort of secret creation called angels. as fake word, the english of the Greek angelous is "messenger" not "invisible beings". It would seem to be a oral tradition of mankind in a need to commune with dead relatives or men of renown the bible refers to them as disembodied workers with a familiar spirit .In need of idl image to put a face on the legion Rachel hid the family idols from her father. Some call them patron saints. Believers rather than seeking the dead for the living (fake angel) they seek to pray the one manner. . . . . our Holy Father we venerate your name as power.

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
● Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you therefore, father, that you would send Lazarus to my
father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also
come to this place of torment.

You know what can be even worse than going to Hell? Your own children following
you there: and they trusted you.

Here's a sort of cute story I heard once. I don't know if it's true but I guess it's
plausible.

A farmer went out to the barn in the dead of night after a snowfall to sneak a pull
from his secret liquor bottle. Just as he got to the barn door he heard something
behind him. Turning, the farmer recognized his little boy coming towards him. In
amazement he asked the little guy how he ever managed to find his way out to the
barn in the dark. His son replied: It was easy; I walked in your footprints.

One can only imagine the anguish that parents in the netherworld must feel
knowing that they inadvertently raised their children in an ideology that led them
down a road to the infernal regions and all the while sincerely believing themselves
doing the right thing. For some families, the only thing they have to look forward to
in the afterlife is a sad reunion in fire and despair.
_

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
● Luke 16:29 . . Abraham said to him: They have Moses and the prophets; let them
hear them. And he said; No, father Abraham

That tells me that the rich man's brothers had little use for their culture's spiritual
heritage.

● Luke 16:30 . . but if one goes to them from the dead, they will repent.

That wasn't likely to happen. Lazarus was basically a homeless scrap of human life
like what you'd expect to see loitering and littering on Kensington Ave. Philadelphia.
Although the rich man's brothers would likely recognize Lazarus from his days of
begging in front of the rich man's home; people like him have just about zero
influence and/or credibility.

NOTE: Although many details pertaining to the afterlife are absent in the Old
Testament, Moses and the prophets did write quite a bit about retribution. Torah
trained Jews have always known something frightening is in the works. For
example:

● Isa 66:23-24 . . And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another,
and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith
The Lord; and they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that
have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire
be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.
_

 

[ChristB4us]

This "parable" is found in Luke 16... but it is really a parable?

The beggar in this passage is named Lazarus. Elsewhere in the gospels, Lazarus is a real person - a friend of Jesus. Jesus stays at his house, mourns his death, and even brings back him back from the dead. Is this the same Lazarus? We can't prove whether it was or not. But at the end of the "parable," the rich man asks for Lazarus to be resurrected and sent to his brothers. Is this a hint that it's the same person?

We are told that the Rich Man was "clothed in purple and fine linen." Purple is typically reserved for royalty. Linen is the wardrobe of the priests. And fine purple linen is the wardrobe of the High Priest (Exo 28). The Rich Man also tells us that he has five brothers (v.28). Now the High Priest at the time was Caiaphas, who did indeed have five brothers, all of which famously served as High Priests in the 1st century. It seems like a foregone conclusion that the Rich Man is either Caiaphas or one of his brothers.

So the parable most likely refers to two real people. Is it really a parable?

-Jarrod

In Luke 16:19-31, it was never cited as a parable, but it is written in one place in this wise;

Matthew 13:34All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The beginning of the chapter, Jesus was speaking to His disciples and yet the Pharisees were there when they had heard what He had said about loving God or money in verses 1-13 which I read a parable about a rich man and a steward in it even though it was not cited as a parable either.

Luke 16:14 And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.

And so He said some other things before getting into that account of the rich man and the beggar, Lazarus, starting in verse 19.

Jesus could have shared a true story from the afterlife presented in that parable. The point was that the living has His words and if the living do not heed His warnings in His words, they would not heed the warnings even from someone they knew that had risen from the dead.

And as far as the beggar named, Lazarus, that can be understood that there are other people named Lazarus in the land of the living as well as in the afterlife and not necessarily referring to the Lazarus that was raised from the dead by Him at His prayer & by His command.

 

[ChristB4us]

What do you make of Luke 16:26?

And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been set, so that those who want to go over from here to you will not be able, nor will any people cross over from there to us.

???

Such a chasm would, presumably preclude conversation between one inhabitant of one realm with any inhabitant in the other. Given the knowledge the realm of the living and the realm of the dead are likewise separated, it would also imply the request to send a message from Abraham's realm to that of those still alive on earth is unrealistic and irrational. Presumably an individual who has stood before God in judgment and received his sentence while still knowledgeable of Abraham's blessed existence knows the foolishness of his own request.

I believe the request was to raise someone up from the dead from Abraham's bosom to warn his brothers in the land of the living and so the chasm is between hell and Abraham's bosom aka Paradise in the afterlife, which, at the time of Christ, were both located beneath the earth. 1 Samuel 28th chapter confirms for how the witch called up the spirit of Samuel for King Saul.

After His death, resurrection, and ascension, He took the captivity captive by taking Paradise to Heaven with Him as only He can bring us to God.

The point of the parable is how Jesus ended that account by what "Abraham" had said this to the rich man in hell;

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So it was not about sending a message from the afterlife to the land of the living but a request to raise someone up from the dead from Abraham's bosom side of the afterlife to warn his five brothers so they would not wind up in hell in torment.

 

[Josheb]

I believe the request was to raise someone up from the dead from Abraham's bosom to warn his brothers in the land of the living and so the chasm is between hell and Abraham's bosom aka Paradise in the afterlife, which, at the time of Christ, were both located beneath the earth. 1 Samuel 28th chapter confirms for how the witch called up the spirit of Samuel for King Saul.

After His death, resurrection, and ascension, He took the captivity captive by taking Paradise to Heaven with Him as only He can bring us to God.

The point of the parable is how Jesus ended that account by what "Abraham" had said this to the rich man in hell;

Luke 16:31 And he said unto him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

So it was not about sending a message from the afterlife to the land of the living but a request to raise someone up from the dead from Abraham's bosom side of the afterlife to warn his five brothers so they would not wind up in hell in torment.

What is the question to be answered in this op?

 

[Odë:hgöd]

.
Abraham was a real-life, historical person. On top of that, he is said to be among
God's friends. (Isa 41:8, 2Chron 20:7, Jas 2:23)

Well; the story told in Luke 16:19-31 quotes Abraham a number of times. I simply
cannot believe that Jesus would quote one of God's buddies saying things that he
never actually said. And if Jesus would misrepresent one of God's buddies; what's
to stop him from doing the same to one of us?

FAQ: Was Jesus a tale spinner?

REPLY: No, Jesus was micromanaged, i.e. he channeled the voice of God.

● John 3:34 . .He is sent by God. He speaks God's words.

● John 8:26 . .He that sent me is true; and I speak to the world those things which
I have heard of Him.

● John 8:28 . . I do nothing on my own initiative, but I speak these things as the
Father taught me.

● John 12:49 . . I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He
gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

● John 14:24 . .The word which you hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent
me.

● Heb 1:1-2 . . In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at
many times and in various ways, but in these last days He has spoken to us by His
son.

FAQ: Is God a tale spinner?

REPLY: God not only doesn't lie, He cannot lie. (Num 23:19, Titus 1:2)

There are folks a large who sincerely believe God is a person of marginal integrity
who cannot be trusted to tell the truth. Well; I for one sincerely believe they are
mistaken.

● John 8:26 . . He that sent me is true
_

 

[Mr GLee]

● Luke 16:27-29 . . I beg you therefore, father, that you would send Lazarus to my
father's house, for I have five brothers, that he may testify to them, lest they also
come to this place of torment.

Which father is he praying to? The legion of fathers made up of many disemboded workers with a familiar spirits like today some call patron saints. We know God does not speak to the dead he said there is a fixed chasm, bottomless pit and it was not open for debate . No man can serve two teachings masters the antichrists and our One Holy Father .

Luke 16 : 26 And besides, there is a great chasm separating us, and anyone wanting to come to you from here is stopped at its edge; and no one over there can cross to us.’

Can't serve mammon the wisdom of this world reckoned by earthly riches (necromancy seeking the dead) Compared with the wisdom of God as it is written. To the law and the prophets (sola scriptura)

Why try and literalize the parable of two teachings masters? What's the hope? What is the gospel meaning ?

Angry people have teeth and thirst for water. . .drooling slurping there words thier mouth becomes dry ? Bring some to my angry brothers also? .