Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[Rescued One]

So what belief do you want to talk about?

Well. I guess I'm more informed about double-predestination now. I didn't realize that Reformed Baptists believed it.

 

[ReverendRV]

I was just wondering what people were thinking about me at the time, and, believe me, that was long, long ago. I guess what they thought depended on whether or not they believed in supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism. Most people ignored me.

I like Infralapsarianism. As I've said, it allows God to have a Middle-Man to be Culpable instead of him. I look at it as the Potter and Clay. Adam's the Clay; did God make Vessels for Honor or Dishonor out of Adam before the Fall, or after the Fall? If God makes Vessels from a Fallen Lump of Clay, he could remain Just and make each Vessel for Wrath. He could also be Gracious and make each Vessel for Honor. But the Bible tells us God made Vessels for Honor and for Dishonor. God doesn't Sin, because the Clay is Condemned Already. In Supralapsarianism, the Clay isn't Condemned Already. In Infralapsarianism, God doesn't Predestine the Reprobate; because God Passes over those remaining in Adam's Condemnation. It's why I prefer Infralapsarianism...

Why not prefer something other than these two? Because even in Provisionism, God uses Infralapsarianism; but the reason God Elects is Conditional Infralapsarianism. So in my Mind, we can't avoid the Choice of God in our lives...

 

[Carbon]

#2
From nothing nothing comes so God could not look into the future using nothing as His source of information.

But He looks into the future the same as He looks into the past. It's all present.


What you say has the scent of open theism.

 

[ReverendRV]

Well. I guess I'm more in formed about double-predestination now. I didn't realize that Reformed Baptists believed it.

I have a question: is UCRCNA different from CRCNA?

I have to look that up. I have no clue...

 

[Rescued One]

I have to look that up. I have no clue...

Never mind. Someone posted here from CRCNA and now I realize that was the denomination I attended for a short time, but I don't remember the name of the member here.

 

[ReverendRV]

Never mind. Someone posted here from CRCNA and now I realize that was the denomination I attended for a short time, but I don't remember the Name of the member here.

Was it the Crystal Cathedral?

 

[Rescued One]

Christian Reformed Church North America.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

I need to not think about the people I loved who never came to Christ before passing away, ...

You don't need to avoid thinking about them, necessarily, but I do think it matters how you think about them. That kind of sorrow is real and runs deep, and it should be brought before the Lord, not silenced or buried. "Pour out your hearts before God; He is our refuge" (Ps 62:8).

I have had to walk through that valley myself. My mother died without faith in Christ, and it saddened me. But my sorrow kept wanting to place her above the Lord. I had to keep reminding myself that Jesus is not only merciful, he is also righteous. And what he does is always right, even when I can't understand the full weight of it. There were times I had to preach hard truth to my own soul—that no one, no matter how much I love them, can be placed above Christ. He said, "The one who loves father or mother more than me is not suited to be my disciple…" And in that moment I had to decide whether I would love Christ more than even the memories or hopes I had for her.

That is not an easy word, but it's a merciful one. He is calling us to love him above all, because he alone is worthy. So, I had to ask myself: Do I trust that the Judge of all the earth will do what is right? Can I rest in the justice and goodness of Christ, even when I feel torn inside?

That didn't erase the grief, of course. I still miss her, and I still mourn the fact that she never knew the joy of knowing Christ. But it did reorder my heart. I have come to see that even in sorrow Christ must remain supreme. I want my grief to say, "Worthy is the Lamb."

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Never mind. Someone posted here from CRCNA and now I realize that was the denomination I attended for a short time, but I don't remember the name of the member here.

That might have been me, though I am affiliated with URCNA (United Reformed Church of North America).

 

[Rescued One]

That might have been me, though I am affiliated with URCNA (United Reformed Church of North America).

Yes! Is URCNA a separate denomination? How is it different?

 

[Hazelelponi]

I like Infralapsarianism

I lean Supra. I don't think it would affect how people see those who are unsaved, generally speaking.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Yes! Is URCNA a separate denomination? How is it different?

The URCNA is sort of a denomination? But they actually identify as a federation, which is a voluntary association of churches united by shared confessions, church order, and mutual accountability, rather than a denomination that imposes top-down directives. They split from the CRCNA in the mid-1990s because CRCNA was sliding into theological liberalism.

 

[Whatever]

I was just wondering what people were thinking about me at the time, and, believe me, that was long, long ago. I guess what they thought depended on whether or not they believed in supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism. Most people ignored me.

Probably 90% of those in Church probably have never even heard of supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism.

 

[ReverendRV]

I lean Supra. I don't think it would affect how people see those who are unsaved, generally speaking.

Both Supra and Infra will work. Either way, God chooses from the Clay before the Vessels have done good or bad. Infra just involves God's Agent Adam in the Equation; Supra doesn't...

 

[Hazelelponi]

Both Supra and Infra will work. Either way, God chooses from the Clay before the Vessels have done good or bad. Infra just involves God's Agent Adam in the Equation; Supra doesn't...

It's a more difficult topic to figure out. I have gotten confused so I need to go back on it and start again...

Once I understand something I'm good, it's just figuring it out. It is perhaps my brain doesn't work too . Hahaha

 

[ReverendRV]

It's a more difficult topic to figure out. I have gotten confused so I need to go back on it and start again...

Once I understand something I'm good, it's just figuring it out. It is perhaps my brain doesn't work too . Hahaha

Supra is good for Calvinists who like God Predestining without Agents, so infra is good for Calvinists who don't mind God using Agents to Predestine...

 

[Whatever]

Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I believe the supra vs infra debate is something not revealed in Scripture. It is just us (or educated theologians) trying to use our limited human understanding to put everything in a logical order. Like other debates:

Where does the soul come from? Does God create it right when there is a conception or is it a natural phenomenon of conception?

How many angels can dance on the point of a needle? Thomas Aquinas said that, since two angels cannot be at the same place at the same time, then only one could be on the point of a needle at any given time. And the debate began.

 

[ReverendRV]

Deuteronomy 29:29 "The secret things belong to the LORD our God, but those things which are revealed belong to us and to our children forever, that we may do all the words of this law.

I believe the supra vs infra debate is something not revealed in Scripture. It is just us (or educated theologians) trying to use our limited human understanding to put everything in a logical order. Like other debates:

Where does the soul come from? Does God create it right when there is a conception or is it a natural phenomenon of conception?

How many angels can dance on the point of a needle? Thomas Aquinas said that, since two angels cannot be at the same place at the same time, then only one could be on the point of a needle at any given time. And the debate began.

That's what I was thinking; IE Real Participation....

You can't be Supra, if you hold to our real Participation in the Original Sin. You can't even be Infra...

 

[Whatever]

Supra is good for Calvinists who like God Predestining without Agents, so infra is good for Calvinists who don't mind God using Agents to Predestine...

What kind of agents would God use in predestination? I know God uses agents like Paul and Satan, but that is now while things are going on.

Do you see predestination different than foreordination?

King James and New King James
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
ESV
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Determined before -G4309 - proorizō - From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate. It occurs 6 times in the King James

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 ➔ also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

 

[ReverendRV]

What kind of agents would God use in predestination? I know God uses agents like Paul and Satan, but that is now while things are going on.

Do you see predestination different than foreordination?

King James and New King James
Acts 4:28 to do whatever Your hand and Your purpose determined before to be done.
ESV
Act 4:28 to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Determined before -G4309 - proorizō - From G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, that is, (figuratively) predetermine: - determine before, ordain, predestinate. It occurs 6 times in the King James

Act 4:28
For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before G4309 to be done.

Rom 8:29
For whom he did foreknow, he G4309 ➔ also did predestinate G4309 to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Rom 8:30
Moreover whom he did predestinate, G4309 them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

1Co 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained G4309 before the world unto our glory:

Eph 1:5
Having predestinated G4309 us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

Eph 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated G4309 according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

In Infra, God uses a Fallen Adam; Adam is the Agent of the Fall, then God Predestines and Passes Over...