Is Double Predestination Biblical?

[fastfredy0]

Were my relatives condemned before birth?

God is outside of time. God created time. All people's destiny has always been known to God and God is the First Cause of all things. (open theists disagree)

We need to move on to happy things... lol ... theodicies are not a "happy place"

I spent 12 years in a cult and 2or 3 more before regeneration. Did Christians think I was not chosen?

One's assurance of salvation and one's guess as to whether another is saved would use the same list.
1. Believing in Christ (Faith)
2. Repentance - Who Loves God will Obey God.
3. The Believer’s Salvation from the Love of Sin.
4. No Habitual Sinning, Strive to enter through the narrow gate.
5. Material possessions have little value and human issues are not particularly upsetting.
6. Humility.
7. Lose our own life to follow Him...
8. Press Forward unto Perfection, Love the Brethren.
9. Internal Testimony Of The Spirit Overcoming the World.
10. Spiritual Growth.
11. Peace of mind
12. Perseverance.
13. Persecution possibly

People can change. They seldom do. Narrow is the gate and few that find it.
Seems to me you found it.

 

[fastfredy0]

OK .. time for someone that knows what he is talking about to take over for me. *giggle*

 

[Whatever]

I just asked chatgpt and got an interesting answer.

In Reformed theology, the debate between infralapsarianism and supralapsarianism centers around the logical order (not chronological) of God’s eternal decrees, particularly in relation to predestination, creation, and the fall.

Here is the rest:

Supralapsarianism ("above the fall")​

Order of decrees:

1. Decree to elect some and reprobate others (predestination)
2. Decree to create those individuals
3. Decree to permit the fall of mankind
4. Decree to provide salvation for the elect through Christ

Summary: God first decides who will be saved and who will be damned, then decrees to create and allow the fall to accomplish that purpose.

Emphasis: God’s sovereignty and glory in election is central.

Infralapsarianism ("below the fall")​

Order of decrees:

1. Decree to create human beings
2. Decree to permit the fall
3. Decree to elect some fallen individuals and pass over others
4. Decree to provide salvation for the elect through Christ

Summary: God first decrees to create and allow the fall, then chooses to save some out of fallen humanity.

Emphasis: God's justice and mercy in a fallen world.

Key Differences:​

• Supralapsarianism sees election as a prior purpose behind creation and the fall.
• Infralapsarianism sees election as a response to the fall, showing God’s mercy to sinners.

Both views affirm God's sovereignty and the doctrines of grace, but they differ in how God's decrees are logically structured.

 

[Whatever]

All people's destiny has always been known to God

That raises another question.
Does God know these things because He looked into the future and found it out?
or
Does God know these things because He has foreordained them to happen.? Like an author writing a novel.

 

[Whatever]

I spent 12 years in a cult and 2or 3 more before regeneration. Did Christians think I was not chosen?

You were always chosen. God's providence for your life is just different than everybody else's.
Providence refers to divine guidance or care, often seen as the protective power of God over human affairs.

God sees to it that some of His chosen come to faith at an early life. Some are made to live in a unbelief state for 20-50 years for the purpose of them going through situations that shape their character or personality.

 

[Whatever]

and who/what caused them to be born sinners?

Did you ever read the book:
What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory
by Christensen, Scott

What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory

Reconciling the existence of God and evil is a conundrum in Christian theology, and a philosophical approach rather than a theological one dominates. Turning to the Bible's grand storyline, Scott Christensen examines how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into the broad outlines of redemptive...

www.wtsbooks.com

I think I have recommended it before. He deals with Theodicy, which is kind of what we are talking about with God being active or passive and stuff.

“Scott Christensen’s book What about Evil? deals with the ‘problem of evil’—how can evil exist in a world created and ruled by a God who is sovereign and completely good? Many authors (including me) have takenup this challenge, but it remains a powerful objection to the truth of the Christian faith. Christensen gets beyond the more traditional approaches to the problem, by reminding us that God’s wisdom pervades everything he ordains so that the very existence of evil serves his purpose of maximizing goodness and glorifying himself. Of course, Romans 8:28 and other verses say that this is true. But Christensen shows us how it is true, how even in this fallen world we can begin to grasp something of God’s light in the midst of the darkness, indeed especially there. I commend this book to readers who seek a serious and thoughtful treatment of this issue.”

John M. Frame​

Professor of Systematic Theology and Philosophy Emeritus, Reformed Theological Seminary, Orlando

 

[ElectedbyHim]

... and who/what caused them to be born sinners? Did they chose to have a sin nature (free will) or did some higher power predestine it. Just because God appears to be passive doesn't mean He didn't get the ball rolling. I drop a ball off a tower and become passive doesn't mean I wasn't active in predetermining what the ball will do.

I would also argue nothing exists passively, that God actively causes everything to exist moment to next moment:

• Col. 1:17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
• Job 34:14-15 If he set his heart upon man, if he gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; 15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

... so your ability to exist and commit the next sin is actively supported by God continuing to use His power so that you do exist and every part of you exist. If God be passive he would "gather unto himself his spirit and his breath; All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust."

Excellent.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

Did you ever read the book:
What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory
by Christensen, Scott

What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory

Reconciling the existence of God and evil is a conundrum in Christian theology, and a philosophical approach rather than a theological one dominates. Turning to the Bible's grand storyline, Scott Christensen examines how sin, evil, corruption, and death fit into the broad outlines of redemptive...

www.wtsbooks.com

I think I have recommended it before. He deals with Theodicy, which is kind of what we are talking about with God being active or passive and stuff.

“Scott Christensen’s book What about Evil? deals with the ‘problem of evil’—how can evil exist in a world created and ruled by a God who is sovereign and completely good? Many authors (including me) have takenup this challenge, but it remains a powerful objection to the truth of the Christian faith. Christensen gets beyond the more traditional approaches to the problem, by reminding us that God’s wisdom pervades everything he ordains so that the very existence of evil serves his purpose of maximizing goodness and glorifying himself. Of course, Romans 8:28 and other verses say that this is true. But Christensen shows us how it is true, how even in this fallen world we can begin to grasp something of God’s light in the midst of the darkness, indeed especially there. I commend this book to readers who seek a serious and thoughtful treatment of this issue.”

John M. Frame​

Professor of Systematic Theology and Philosophy Emeritus, Reformed Theological Seminary, Orlando

This is on my list to get.

Highly rated from what I have read.

 

[Hazelelponi]

I spent 12 years in a cult and 2or 3 more before regeneration. Did Christians think I was not chosen?

Hey sister.

All of us were "condemned" before we were born because of the sin nature we were all born with, the elect and unregenerate alike.

We all suck. Doesn't matter, we came from the same pool.

All God did was choose a multitude that no one can number to elect for salvation and reconciliation with God, and He did this choosing from before the foundation of the world.

We don't know who the elect are until God reveals them to us. This actually helps us treat everyone with an equal amount of grace also, before they are saved. Because we are hopeful for everyone to be saved.

don't worry about things like double predestinarian. Just stick with the main teachings that others are trying to share.

Love and hugs. Sorry this is upsetting. I can relate, but remember, we have a God we can trust to be actually just - better than we can do justice for real.

That we can trust in, for and with all things, even the people we love the most. No one said being Christian is easy, but we definitely have an awesome God.

 

[ElectedbyHim]

That raises another question.
Does God know these things because He looked into the future and found it out?
or
Does God know these things because He has foreordained them to happen.? Like an author writing a novel.

He foreordained them.

Psalm 139 has much to say as well as....

Psalms 37:23 The footsteps of a man are established by Yahweh, And He delights in his way.

Psalms 40:2 He brought me up out of the pit of destruction, out of the miry clay, And He set my feet upon a high rock, He established my steps.

Proverbs 16:1 The plans of the heart belong to man, But the answer of the tongue is from Yahweh.

Proverbs 19:21 Many thoughts are in a man’s heart, But it is the counsel of Yahweh that will stand.

Proverbs 20:24 The steps of a man are from Yahweh, How then can man understand his way?

Jeremiah 10:23 I know, O Yahweh, that a man’s way is not in himself, Nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps.

Ezekiel 36:27 “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will be careful to do My judgments.

People have issue with these verses because I am told that it makes us robots, also it is a license to sin.

However, I do not see it that way.

 

[fastfredy0]

That raises another question.
1) Does God know these things because He looked into the future and found it out?
or
2) Does God know these things because He has foreordained them to happen.? Like an author writing a novel.

#2
From nothing nothing comes so God could not look into the future using nothing as His source of information.

 

[ReverendRV]

#2
From nothing nothing comes so God could not look into the future using nothing as His source of information.

Brilliant!

Mic drop moment; case closed...

 

[fastfredy0]

Did you ever read the book:
What about Evil?: A Defense of God's Sovereign Glory
by Christensen, Scott

No, I haven't read it.
I assume Scott states that "evil is not a THING that exists like matter or energy. Evil is a description of what is happening IN creation. Evil was not "created" by God nor by us. Evil is a description of the ungodly, unrighteous, unjust actions of human beings. Colin Steko
Augustine said something similar

 

[Rescued One]

You were always chosen. God's providence for your life is just different than everybody else's.
Providence refers to divine guidance or care, often seen as the protective power of God over human affairs.

God sees to it that some of His chosen come to faith at an early life. Some are made to live in a unbelief state for 20-50 years for the purpose of them going through situations that shape their character or personality.

I believe the Bible and have been a Christian for longer than I was a non-Christian, but I feel like an outsider even with other Christians. I need to not think about the people I loved who never came to Christ before passing away or certain people in other denominations who show disrespect.

 

[ReverendRV]

I believe the Bible and have been a Christian for longer than I was a non-Christian, but I feel like an outsider even with other Christians. I need to not think about the people I loved who never came to Christ before passing away or certain people in other denominations who show disrespect.

So what belief do you want to talk about?

 

[Rescued One]

You were always chosen. God's providence for your life is just different than everybody else's.
Providence refers to divine guidance or care, often seen as the protective power of God over human affairs.

God sees to it that some of His chosen come to faith at an early life. Some are made to live in a unbelief state for 20-50 years for the purpose of them going through situations that shape their character or personality.

I was just wondering what people were thinking about me at the time, and, believe me, that was long, long ago. I guess what they thought depended on whether or not they believed in supralapsarianism or infralapsarianism. Most people ignored me.

 

[Carbon]

I understand. I was at the bedside when both my Mom and Dad died. I doubt either of them were saved. I was bothered by the idea of them spending eternity suffering, but I still can't deny what the Bible seems to clearly say.

We just have to trust the Lord that He knows what He is doing.

Amen.

 

[Carbon]

Ask him...

Why don't you answer?

 

[Carbon]

That raises another question.
Does God know these things because He looked into the future and found it out?
or
Does God know these things because He has foreordained them to happen.? Like an author writing a novel.

It sure is not the first option.

 

[Carbon]

You were always chosen. God's providence for your life is just different than everybody else's.
Providence refers to divine guidance or care, often seen as the protective power of God over human affairs.

God sees to it that some of His chosen come to faith at an early life. Some are made to live in a unbelief state for 20-50 years for the purpose of them going through situations that shape their character or personality.

Nice!