Is anyone planning on...............

[donadams]

I think they've changed their mind to agree with salvation by faith alone, not by works.

At least in some quarters.

Never!

 

[donadams]

Truth and the church are immutable and ir-reformable they are of divine origin and cannot be reformed by the tradition of men!

 

[donadams]

The list of Martin Luther’s errors, taken from his 95 Theses and from other writings, is found in the papal bull (official document) of 1520 of Pope Leo X called Exurge Domine. The Church reforms that were developing at the time were not directly related to Luther’s objections, although they concern many, if not all, of the same areas. These reforms are found in the decrees of the Council of Trent. The main concern here is that even when we recognize the need for reform, this does not mean that we should separate from the communion of the Catholic Church, setting up our own version of the church, but remain in her communion and work for reform in the unity of orthodox faith and charity.

These “reforms” I hope only touch in discipline and administration and not faith and doctrine? Dogma in immutable! Incontrovertible truth!

Thanks

 

[Arial]

The apostles remain until christ returns administering his kingdom
Matt 28:19-20 I am with you ( the apostles) to the end
Acts 1:8 apostles are His witnesses to the ends of the world

Matt 28:16-20 (don't leave out inconvenient stuff if you want to make your case.)Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. And when they saw Him they worshiped Him, but some doubted. And Jesus came and said to them, "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold I am with you always, to the end of the age.

Those He appointed as apostles were the eleven whom He spoke those words to. An apostle has to be directly appointed by Jesus Himself as He, as stated, has all authority in heaven and on earth. To say this belongs to the Catholic church, either the authority or apostleship, is derived from the scriptures as a man made doctrine. There is no scriptural support for that at all. The Catholic church has no witness from God in these matters it has only itself as its only witness. It has changed sola scriptura into sola RCC, which is what the Reformation corrected, and rightfully and gratefully so.

Acts 1:8 us Luke continuing his account of Jesus and that occured after the resurrection. It takes place at the same time as what we just saw in the verses of Matthew. So it concerns the same eleven disciples and Jesus is speaking to them about them. It has nothing, nothing to do with the RCC and has no application to that organization. They would receive power to proclaim the gospel with power and to lay the foundational, complete, never added to or taken from, teachings of His church (not the RCC.)

 

[Arial]

Peter, the apostles and their successors have all authority on earth from christ

Peter and the apostles have no successors. Prove to me without Catholic dogma in the mix, where they do?

 

[Arial]

Please explain faith is not a doctrine?

Really? Are you having difficulty making distinctions since they have become so blurred by false doctrine?

The faith that saves has doctrines, clearly defined within scripture and having to do with who Jesus is, what He did, how He did it, and why He needed to do it. Faith is believing in and trusting in those things, it is not the things itself.

 

[donadams]

Many Protestants today realize that Catholics adhere to the idea of salvation sola gratia (by grace alone), but fewer are aware that Catholics do not have to condemn the formula of justification sola fide (by faith alone), provided this phrase is properly understood.

The term pistis is used in the Bible in a number of different senses,

• ranging from intellectual belief (Romans 14:22, 23, James 2:19),
• assurance (Acts 17:31),
• and even to trustworthiness or reliability (Romans 3:3, Titus 2:10).

Of key importance is Galatians 5:6, which refers to “faith working by charity.” In Catholic theology, this is what is known as fides formata or “faith formed by charity.” The alternative to formed faith is fides informis or “faith unformed by charity.” This is the kind of faith described in James 2:19, for example.

Whether a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone depends on what sense the term “faith” is being used in. If it is being used to refer to unformed faith then a Catholic rejects the idea of justification by faith alone (which is the point James is making in James 2:19, as every non-antinomian Evangelical agrees; one is not justified by intellectual belief alone).

However, if the term “faith” is being used to refer to faith formed by charity then the Catholic does not have to condemn the idea of justification by faith alone. In fact, in traditional works of Catholic theology, one regularly encounters the statement that formed faith is justifying faith. If one has formed faith, one is justified. Period.

A Catholic would thus reject the idea of justification sola fide informi but wholeheartedly embrace the idea of justification sola fide formata. Adding the word “formed” to clarify the nature of the faith in “sola fide” renders the doctrine completely acceptable to a Catholic.

read more here

And the necessity of baptism? Mk 16:16
Thanks

 

[Arial]

Why did Jesus demand obedience to the Pharisees who were the successors of Moses? Matt 23:1-3

It really would be great if you would actually address what I say in my posts instead of deflecting like this.

Matt 23:1-3 Elsewhere Jesus condemns the Pharisees for adding human tradition to the law and evading the spirit of the law. Here He is recognizing the legitimate teaching office.

What does your question have to do with anything I posted? Are you trying to say something without saying it? If so, spit it out as a matter of integrity.

See how scripture helped to clarify scripture there?

 

[donadams]

A

Peter and the apostles have no successors. Prove to me without Catholic dogma in the mix, where they do?

Acts 1:15-26
Mathias is a successor!

Proof acts 2:14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judaea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:

Acts 6:2 Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables.

Peter plus eleven is twelve!

Judas is dead Paul not yet so Mathias makes twelve!

Matt 28:19 and acts 1:8 requires apostolic succession!

Thanks

 

[Arial]

We pray to God thru the intercession of the saints not to saints, God is the source of all good!

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

 

[donadams]

It really would be great if you would actually address what I say in my posts instead of deflecting like this.

Matt 23:1-3 Elsewhere Jesus condemns the Pharisees for adding human tradition to the law and evading the spirit of the law. Here He is recognizing the legitimate teaching office.

What does your question have to do with anything I posted? Are you trying to say something without saying it? If so, spit it out as a matter of integrity.

See how scripture helped to clarify scripture there?

Because that “Legitimate teaching authority” was taken from them Matt 21:43 and given to the apostolic church Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21

Thanks

 

[donadams]

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

Jesus Christ extends his mission, power, and authority to His church of His apostles! The apostles have the same mission, ministry, power, and authority as Christ! Jn 20:21 as the father sent me, so I send you!

Even His judging!
Matt 19:28 and 1 cor 6:2
His teaching authority!
Matt 28:19 and Jn 20:21
His power to forgive sins!
Jn 20:23
Jn 17:22 / rom 2:10 / 1 pet 1:7 Christ shares His glory with His saints!
His being the light of the world!
Matt 5:14
Must hear church Matt 18:18
His ministry of reconciliation!
2 cor 5:18
His authority in governing the church and administering the kingdom!
Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 21:17
Lk 22:29
Apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:5
Acts 2:42 doctrine of the apostles!
So the church is subject to Christ!
Eph 5:24
Christ shares His glory! 2 thes 1:10 rev 12:1

The pillar and foundation of TRUTH!
1 Tim 3:15

 

[donadams]

1 Tim 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus.

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Only one mediator?

1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;


NOT found in the Bible are..........

“prayer to saints”

1st we don’t pray to saints, our prayers are directed to God (who alone can hear and answer prayer) thru the intercession of the saints rev 5:8 with the ministering angels. Heb 1:14


Jesus Christ is the Head of the church Eph 5:23 the only mediator 1 Tim 2:5 and chief intercessor, makes intercession for the saints! (The church) Rom 8:26-27 8:34 heb 7:25

The saints also make intercession!

1 Timothy 2:1
I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

Revelation 5:8
And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Revelation 8:3
And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

Revelation 8:4
And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.

James 5:16 …The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much. How much more the Mother of God? Christ honors Mary! Honor Thy father and mother!

Jn 11:25 (the saints are alive) Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

Lk 20:38 For he is not a God of the dead, but of the living: for all live unto him.

All generations call me blessed! Lk 1:
Thanksgiving in praise of Mary for bearing our savior! Matt 1:23 And finding our salvation! Lk 1:30

Praise honor veneration and devotion redound to the Glory of God who created Mary immaculate Lk 1:49 as Christ source of all grace! Jn 1:16-17

Praise, honor, veneration, and devotion are not worship, worship requires intent!

Mary all powerful advocate!
Help of Christian’s!

Mary ever virgin, mother of God, is all powerful in her prayers!

Mary’s prayers are all powerful not cos she is God but because her son is God!

and on becoming man He (Jesus) obeyed his own commandments

you might check out the one that says “honor Thy father and mother”

“My hour has not come”

The time set by almighty God for the public ministry of Christ had not come, Jesus Christ still performed the miracle cos his mother interceded, thus a higher law, “honor thy father and mother” if ANYONE else asked it would NOT have been done!
John 2

and cos of her intercession the disciples believed in Him!
Jn 2:11

Jesus said
“My hour has not come” also indicates Mary’s intimate role in salvation history!

When His has come she would be there and very involved!

Luke 2:35
(Yea, a sword shall pierce through thy own soul also,) that the thoughts of many hearts may be revealed.

Jn 19:25 Now there stood by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Cleophas, and Mary Magdalene.

26 When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by, whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son!

27 Then saith he to the disciple, Behold thy mother! And from that hour that disciple took her unto his own home.





We should be grieved by the manifold sins of mankind that offend our God! If we love God!

make reparation and recompense as far as we can by prayer and sacrifice!

also not forgetting to pray for the conversion of sinners!

Eternal Father, I offer Thee the precious blood of Jesus!

Precious blood of Jesus, save us!

Jn 15:4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.

5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

Matthew 10:38
And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

Matthew 16:24
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

2 Corinthians 1:6
And whether we be afflicted, it is for your consolation and salvation, which is effectual in the enduring of the same sufferings which we also suffer: or whether we be comforted, it is for your consolation and salvation.

2 Corinthians 12:9
And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

2 Thessalonians 1:5
Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:

Colossians 1:11
Strengthened with all might, according to his glorious power, unto all patience and longsuffering with joyfulness;

2 Tim 2:3 Thou therefore endure hardness, as a good soldier of Jesus Christ.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

Phil 1:19
For I know that this shall turn to my salvation through your prayer, and the supply of the Spirit of Jesus Christ,

Phil 1:29
For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

1 pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

James 1:2-8
My brethren, count it all joy when ye fall into divers temptations; Knowing this, that the trying of your faith worketh patience. But let patience have her perfect work, that ye may be perfect and entire, wanting nothing

James 5:16 the prayer of a righteous man avails much…

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Hebrews 10:36
For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise.

Hebrews 12:4
Ye have not yet resisted unto blood, striving against sin.

1 Peter 2:20
For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God.

Colossians 1:24
Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

Rev 5:8 the prayers of the saints…

 

[Illuminator]

I understand that. But they do not set themselves up as the one true and only authority of interpretation of scripture for he entire church of Christ as the RCC does, who claims to be the one true church of Christ and the only authority of interpretation of the Bible. IOW what they say is how it is.

The Catholic Church does not claim to be the only church with truths.

That is a non-argument. It assumes that since this is so the Bible has no correct interpretation and no one can know if they are correct.

Nonsense.

They have to have a self ordained authority tell them what it means.

Authority has never been self ordained.

And it is not what is being contested in these posts. It pretty much takes God out of the picture, and a lot of that can be laid right at the feet of the argument of insufficient and ineffective grace which sets God in the background of salvation waiting on man's choices, and Jesus as the head of the church as inconsequential.

Where do you get this stuff???

Let me see if I have this straight. So the magisterium of the RCC sets itself up as being what is referenced in John 14:16-17? In effect either becoming the Holy Spirit or the only ones who have the Holy Spirit? Who decided that? Where did that idea come from? I will expect an answer

John 14:16-17 references only one church.

How protestants interpret is not the issue. There is a discipline of interpretation. Hermeneutics. It contains elements and tools used in interpreting anything. And yes, "protestant" is as broad as there are people who are true Christians. But that too is not the issue. The issue is whether there is one central, controlling, and final authority on interpreting the Bible and putting forth that interpretation as om effect, law, established by God? And the answer is no. The result would be the doctrines of men.

I get it. Your private interpretation is infallible.

Again. Not the issue. But if scripture cannot interpret itself, then it contains inconsistencies of truth and is unreliable. Maybe the idea of scripture interpreting scripture is such an alien concept to one who depends on man to give them their beliefs, that you have no idea what it means? Think about this: there is a reason why sola scriptura is considered by the RCC as their worst enemy.

No, SS is not the CC worst enemy, it is Protestantism's worst enemy, as proven by countless division and theological anarchy.

It has been expressed repeatedly by their avid supporters in these discussions. It is sola scriptura they are after to destroy. It takes away their authority, their glory, their power. Which btw belongs only to God. And you make a point against the RCC when you say scripture is clear to the rational reader who claim to be the only rational readers and then add to it and take away from it left and right.

And again. Not the issue. But what makes you think this needs to be controlled and bound, and chained, by the RCC---by anybody? It is totalitarian religion and one of works,

deleted by admin

the very opposite of "Those I set free are free indeed." "Come to Me all you who are weary and heavy laden and I will give you rest. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light." "But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness." "The Law leads us to Christ so we may be justified by faith."

It doesn't say "faith alone".

 

[Eleanor]

Never!

You need to check around.

 

[Arial]

The Catholic Church does not claim to be the only church with truths.

That isn't what I said either.

Nonsense.

Also a non-response. If it is nonsense then what is nonsense about it? If this is the way you are going to respond to posts then all such posts will be deleted. This forum is for discussions, not one word responses with no content and no support.

Authority has never been self ordained.

Never? Who ordained the Catholic church as the authority on interpreting scripture? And don't say God unless you can prove that from the scriptures. And you can't because it doesn't. What you have is the Catholic church ordaining that it was God who ordained them. The RCC is the only witness to any of its false claims.

Where do you get this stuff???

From logical thinking free from the hazards of indoctrination of fallacies, and mystery, and superstition. But this type of posting is not conducive to the type of forum CCAM desires to be. It is accusation with nothing of merit contributed.

John 14:16-17 references only one church.

But who determines that one church is the Catholic church? Do you think the church is buildings? Or is it all those who are in Christ through faith? Churches are just where believers gather to worship and learn of God.

I get it. Your private interpretation is infallible.

The only one to ever claim that their interpretations are infallible is the Catholic church. Address the posts!!!! If you are unable to do so, don't respond at all. Other places put up with this sort of thing, but we will not. It does nothing to edify people or exalt God.

No, SS is not the CC worst enemy, it is Protestantism's worst enemy, as proven by countless division and theological anarchy.

Well Protestants aren't fighting against it---so not an enemy. Catholic, zealots anyway, I doubt that many Catholics even heard of sola scriptura or give a hoot what it is, are fighting it. But your argument which you repeat here, is not even the issue, nor I venture to guess is a concern for us poor misguided protestants. I assume you are aware that anarchy stems from a rebellion against tyranny and tyrants. But there is no theological anarchy within the Protestant church. There are differing views of some things, none of which pertain to salvation. And that was neither invented by nor caused by sola scriptura. So find a legitimate argument against it. How about the real one for starters? There was anarchy, a revolt, against the tyranny of the RCC during the Reformation. And sola scriptura sealed all dominating authority over the mind and religious practices of the RCC. It is not anyone's job, or any government's job, or any religion's job, to control what people think and believe.

It doesn't say "faith alone".

Well it does say faith without adding anything to it. That is pretty much alone. And the one verse says the one who does not work but believes Him, is justified by faith.

 

[Arial]

God of the living!

Matthew 22:32
I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were physically dead when Jesus said that so what do you suppose He meant. You will find the answer in the full context out of which the verse comes. And what does that have to do in any way with the scripture I quoted?

Only one mediator?

1 Tim 2:1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;

For all men, not to them and not to the dead. In fact we are forbidden from communicating with the dead.

NOT found in the Bible are..........

“prayer to saints”

1st we don’t pray to saints, our prayers are directed to God (who alone can hear and answer prayer) thru the intercession of the saints rev 5:8 with the ministering angels. Heb 1:14

That is just a way of getting around what is being done. Why pray to God through saints, especially since He alone can hear and answer prayer. And the saints referred to are all believers, not those men and women the Catholic church claims the authority to deem saints. Once again overstepping Christ's authority.

I am not going through all your "proof texts' that the Catholic church has interpreted for you, claiming if they say that is what it means then that is what it means----no questions asked. (no questions are asked evidently.) You present them with your (excuse me, the Catholic)interpretation behind them and therefore stand as no support in a debate on the matter. Everyone has been dealt with individually by one person or another in other posts.

 

[Arial]

Because that “Legitimate teaching authority” was taken from them Matt 21:43 and given to the apostolic church Matt 16:18-19 & 18:18 Jn 20:21

Thanks

The apostolic church is not the RCC. The RCC only claims to be but since they have no witness to what they claim but themselves, the claim is invalid, and their arguments for themselves like attempting to carry water with a bucket full of holes. Those are the plain facts.

 

[Carbon]

As I said before you are entitled to your opinion.

And as I said before, thank you.
And you are as well Frank.

What you seem not to understand is that some opinions are best not advertised especially when they are easily contradicted.

I understand that Frank, I know also that your Catholic theology doesn't hold up when brought before God's word.

You say you are aware of the Catholic apologists so perhaps did you expect to accomplish in creating a post you knew would end in heated arguments?

I though it would give you all a chance to defend your positions, not try to avoid them like you're doing. But I should be used to that also.

 

[Carbon]

Where does scripture say have a reformation?
How can truth and the church that are of divine origin be reformed by the tradition of men?
Where does scripture say scripture interprets scripture?

Where does scripture teach Transubstantiation? Where does it teach a Purgatory? Where does it teach to sell offices? Where does it teach another man is the Vicar of Christ? Where does it teach to call another man, holy father? Where does it teach a man should not get married if he becomes a priest? Oh there is so, so much more.

Scripture does not say what is scripture or the inspired word of God and what is not, it does not provide of list of the books of the Bible, so there must be an authority to declare the canon of scripture, this alone make the doctrine the “Bible is the only authority” a false doctrine!

Scripture interprets scripture, it is in perfect harmony with itself. It should, after all, it's God's word.

Scriptural context:

All scripture is the inspired word of God but it never says anything about context being inspired or required.

Here is one place where your organization is steering you wrong.

Ex 20 in context only gives you 9 Commandments.

Every word of scripture is the inspired word of God, even one word, every word of Jesus is eternal.

And who came up with this? Silly.