Is anyone planning on...............

[donadams]

Scripture, understood in context and agreement with all Scripture, is self-interpreting.

Check out my thread biblical hijinks

Ok then scripture really is for you the only authority so it needs to communicate what is and what is not scripture, and where scripture interprets scripture or where it refers to a prior scripture like acts 2:38-39 refers to a prior scripture but does not say which one?

 

[donadams]

Try an English dictionary, or a Greek lexicon:

redemption = deliverance from (e.g., slavery, sin, death penalty)

salvation = deliverance from (wrath of God, Ro 5:9, and punishment for one's sin)

But there must be a distinction or difference cos scripture says we have no part in one of them?
Redemption was accomplished by Christ apart from our participation.

Not salvation

Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

Check out my thread biblical hijinks

Ok then scripture really is for you the only authority so it needs to communicate what is and what is not scripture,

Gee, I don't know. . ."Scripture" is such a new concept.

and where scripture interprets scripture or where it refers to a prior scripture like acts 2:38-39 refers to a prior scripture but does not say which one

The rabbis were familiar with their Scriptures and knew it was Isa 44:3, 65:23, 57:19.

Do you expect to understand references to the OT without studying the OT?

 

[Eleanor]

But there must be a distinction or difference cos scripture says we have no part in one of them?
Redemption was accomplished by Christ apart from our participation.

Not salvation

Thanks

See Eph 2:8-9.

 

[donadams]

Yep, that's the one.

How did this happen?

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

How did this happen?

Well, not by works, clearly.

 

[donadams]

See Eph 2:8-9.

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved past tense
Were you saved (in salvation) 2000 years ago?

Yes redemption which we had no part in and cannot boast

Who’s faith is it vs 8

Thanks

 

[Eleanor]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved past tense
Were you saved (in salvation) 2000 years ago?

Did I have faith 2,000 years ago>

Yes redemption which we had no part in and cannot boast
Who’s faith is it vs 8
Thanks

Whose gift is it when you receive it?

 

[donadams]

Well, not by works, clearly.

Faith and baptism?

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

Faith and baptism?

Through faith.

Baptism is related, but not directly causative.

 

[donadams]

Did I have faith 2,000 years ago>

Whose gift is it when you receive it?

Not yours

 

[Eleanor]

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Saved past tense
Were you saved (in salvation) 2000 years ago?

Yes redemption which we had no part in and cannot boast

Who’s faith is it vs 8

Thanks

Not yours

And there you have answered your own question.

 

[Wycliffes_Shillelagh]

the water does not cause us to be clean?
Does not wash away sin?

Your question was about regeneration. You seem to be digressing.

As far as I can tell, regeneration is accomplished through adoption, and baptism is an adoption ceremony.

Does the water cause the adoption? No, the parent does that. The water is there to show the other children that the adoptee is now "one of us."

As far as washing sins and and sprinkling... those aren't all the same thing as far as I can tell.

In the Old Testament, sprinkling is part of the ceremony for the cutting of blood covenants (which make men into brothers) and covenants of suzerainty (which make men into vassals). Baptism isn't either of those. Baptism makes men into sons.

There are ablutions for ritual purity in the Bible as well, to remove the spots from among the assembly. Baptism doesn't answer to that either. When a brother sins, he does not get re-baptized.

“Faith alone” accomplishes nothing!
1 cor 13:2 even all faith (alone) without charity avails NOTHING!!!

Faith and baptism!

Scripture says none of the things about “Faith alone”!

Only James 2:24 a man is justified by works and not by “faith alone”

2 Peter 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

The Christian sacrament of baptism is the Initiation into the new covenant and must be ministered to you by the apostles!




If not faith and baptism then it must be “faith alone”! Not


“Faith alone” Questions

where does ez 36: 25:27 Say “faith alone”?

where does scripture says we have died with Christ by “faith alone”?

Where does it say we are sealed by faith alone?

Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

where does scripture say we are members of Christ and his church by “faith alone”?

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

where does scripture says we put on Christ by “faith alone”?

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Where does scripture say our sins are washed away by “faith alone”?

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

where does scripture say we are saved or justified by “faith alone”?

1 pet 3:21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!

The only reference in scripture to “faith alone” is James 2:24 NOT BY “FAITH ALONE”?

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

How can you enter by your own if it must be ministered to you? Baptism is done unto you, “not do it yourself by faith alone”

Ministered by the apostolic church!

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

Jn 3:5 born again by faith alone?

Where is “Accept Christ as your personal lord & savior” is found in scripture?

They did not go preaching this line but went immediately to the river and baptized Jn 3:22

Acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

1 Corinthians 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Eph 4:5 one baptism

Why don’t it say one teeny tiny little act of “faith alone”???

When we first believed we are saved?

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.

How can salvation be nearer than when we first believed if you’re saved by believing?

1 pet 1:9 Receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.

How can salvation happen when we first believed if it’s the end?

If salvation is by “faith alone” then faith would be the greatest!
1 cor 13:13 charity is the greatest!

Even all faith much less “faith alone” without charity avails nothing!
1 cor 13:2

The early Catholic Church fathers say faith and baptism!

Eph 5:24 the church is subject to Christ and has always taught and practiced “baptismal regeneration” and never “faith alone” if anyone says we are justified by “faith alone” let them be anathema! (condemned)

Matt 28:19 disciples by faith and baptism

You seem to be arguing against the Reformers' sola fide, rather than anything I've said.

What I have said, is what Peter also said:

1Pe 3:21b
...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God...

-Jarrod

 

[donadams]

Your question was about regeneration. You seem to be digressing.

As far as I can tell, regeneration is accomplished through adoption, and baptism is an adoption ceremony.

Does the water cause the adoption? No, the parent does that. The water is there to show the other children that the adoptee is now "one of us."

As far as washing sins and and sprinkling... those aren't all the same thing as far as I can tell.

In the Old Testament, sprinkling is part of the ceremony for the cutting of blood covenants (which make men into brothers) and covenants of suzerainty (which make men into vassals). Baptism isn't either of those. Baptism makes men into sons.

There are ablutions for ritual purity in the Bible as well, to remove the spots from among the assembly. Baptism doesn't answer to that either. When a brother sins, he does not get re-baptized.


You seem to be arguing against the Reformers' sola fide, rather than anything I've said.

What I have said, is what Peter also said:

1Pe 3:21b
...not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God...

-Jarrod

More info hope this helps

The Christian sacrament* of baptismal regeneration is required for the new covenant and salvation!

*this promise acts 2:38-39 is a sacred oath from God ez 36:25-27 and a sacred oath is a sacrament!

Initiation!!!


Faith & Baptism is the initiation of the new and eternal covenant!

You cannot enter on you’re own or by “faith alone”!

You cannot receive Christ or grace by “faith alone”!

“Accept Christ as you’re personal lord and savior” is fundamentalist tradition not found scripture!

Jn 3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Baptismal regeneration a new creation in Christ! 2 Cor 5:17

A sacrament is an oath! A sacred promise from God! Ez 36:25-27
Acts 2:38-39 (this promise)

No baptism no grace!

A sacrament is an outward sign for all men including infants And a gift from God to help us see what he does inwardly and invisibly by his grace!

As grace Washes our souls in the merits of Jesus blood from original and personal sin, so the outward action of washing is visible!

without the outward action the inward action cannot take place!

Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 water and washing
acts 22:16 wash away your sin!

Jn 3:5 Born again BY water and the spirit! Not by “faith alone”!

They did not go to Jerusalem and preach “accept Christ as you’re personal Lord and savior “

They went to the river (water) and they baptized! Jn 3:22

A covenant requires an outward sign of the inward action of grace!

Ez 36:25 I will sprinkle you with clean water and you shall be made white as snow.

Acts 22:16 washing away your sins.

Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism.

1 pet 3:21 baptism saves you.

You cannot enter on you’re own or by faith alone!

2 pet 1: 11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Heb 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,


Baptism!

God breathed life into Adam, gen 2:7 and we received this life from our fathers!

Christ breathed on the apostles our spiritual fathers, we receive the new covenant life of God’s grace from them thru faith & baptism! Jn 20:21-23 Mk 16:16 acts 8:36-38 eph 2

Born again! Born from above!

'The Father has set his seal' on Christ (John 6:27) and also seals us in him (cf. 2 Corinthians 1:22; Ephesians 1:23, 4:30). Because this seal indicates the indelible effect of the anointing with the Holy Spirit in the sacrament of Baptism,

Baptism indeed is the seal of eternal life." 87 The faithful Christian who I has "kept the seal" until the end, remaining faithful to the demands of his Baptism, will be able to depart this life "marked with the sign of faith," 88 with his baptismal faith, in expectation of the blessed vision of God - the consummation of faith - and in the hope of resurrection.

St. Paul tells the faithful at Ephesus that they have been “sealed with the promised Holy Spirit.” This is in terms of an indelible character imprinted on the soul in the sacraments of baptism and confirmation. It is not as if this invisible mark is simply decorative. Rather, through it, we are enabled to participate in Christ’s mission and in his offices of priest, prophet, and king. Eph 1:13

Sealed by God eph 1:13 sealed by God (ez 36:25-27) in the ark of salvation by baptism just as Noah was sealed by God in the ark of the flood gen 7:16

1 Pet 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us!
(Ark of Noah a type of the church, member of Christ and his church and salvation by baptism!)
(Outside the ark of Noah none were saved, outside the church (the ark of salvation) none are saved!)

Sealed in the ark, sealed in the church the ark of salvation by God thru baptism!


Christ instituted the holy church to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation. (repent and believe the gospel) with the institution of the sacraments to convey grace to sanctify souls!
Matt 28:19

 

[donadams]

Context of Jn 3:5 “born again”

John1:26 John answered them, saying, I baptize with water: but there standeth one among you, whom ye know not; (John prepared the way by baptism)

John 2:6 And there were set there six waterpots of stone, after the manner of the purifying of the Jews, containing two or three firkins apiece. (Old covenant prefiguring of baptism, purification from sin)(His disciples believed because the ever Virgin mother of God interceded Jn 2:11)

John3:5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. (Baptism)

(Key verse! Actions speak louder than words: verse 22)

John 3:22 After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judaea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 23 And John also was baptizing in Aenon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.(Baptism / water)

John 4:1 When therefore the Lord knew how the Pharisees had heard that Jesus made and baptized more disciples than John.

Born again means Baptismal regeneration!


baptismal regeneration!
A new creation in Christ! 2 cor 5:17
Jn 1 JTB prepared the way by baptism!
Jn 2 the waters of purification are OT prefigurement of baptism!
Jn 3:5 born again means baptism
Jn 3:22 they immediately went to the river! Not to preach “accept Christ as personal lord and savior”
But to BAPTIZE!!!

John prepared the way by “water baptism”!
Jesus says “water baptism” Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 apostles say “water baptism” acts 2:38-39 acts 22:16 1 pet 3:20-21 God says “water baptism” ez 36:25-27
Jn 3:22 they immediately went to the river (water) and they baptized!


Christian baptism is an outward sign of the inward action of grace, or merits of Christ’s passion blood and death applied to our souls!

We cannot see the inward action of grace purifying the soul, so God gave us the outward “sign” of water washing the body to indicate the inward action of grace and connected the two.

Jn 3:5
cannot enter the kingdom if n your own.

2 pet 1:11
For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:

 

[Mod46]

Re: post #334 & #345 does no more than the post that was deleted. You do not state your premise for giving the interpretation that you give to those scriptures. I know what it is. You know what it is. But you give scriptures as though if you religion says that is what they refer to then they do. Even though you have been shown time and again that they do not. You have not established that the Catholic religion is THE CHURCH of Christ and that is is the final authority on what scripture means. You have only established that that is what you believe.

When you establish that the Catholic church is what you say it is, then there is room for discussion, rather than this continued reams of scriptures and partial scriptures that in no way support your position. This is becoming simple harassment of Protestants in every thread you enter. It is going to stop, one way or the other. @donadams Consider this a final warning.

 

[Mikeuk]

And anyone who thinks Scripture is not the sole judge of all spiritual truth is subject to deception.

That is an opinion not a fact. Indeed Scripture itself refutes that claim by identifying spiritual truth outside of itself.

So scripture doesn’t believe it : and as a result are you saying scripture is “ subject to deception”? Or are you saying those who believe your statement are subject of deception?

THE church does not agree. It rightly states scripture is not self interpreting, or complete without other sources of truth to resolve ambiguity, which is why reformationists read the same scripture but believe in opposite meanings.
Try the role of free will Calvinist v Arminian. Why do they disagree if your statement is true? It’s a fair question.

 

[Mr GLee]

.......................................... nailing the 95 theses onto the doors of a Roman Catholic Church?

I wonder what would happen if we did?

Tempting ? LOL

I would offer believers I would hope the Spirit of faith Christ as it is writen would support the 95 theses

2 Corinthians 4:13 We having the same spirit of faith, according as it is written, I believed, and therefore have I spoken; we also believe, and therefore speak;

The mutual power of his labor of love he works with those yoked with his gospel the same mutual faith spoken of in Romans 1. God working in Paul giving him a desire to declare the will of God not seen giving both the unseen understanding. All of the gifts are two fold edifying one Eternal God not dying mankind .Its a gift from the hand of God . more of the "let there be" and the good gift. Giving us a desire he can empower us to use them to his glory (Philippians 2:13)

Romans 1:10-12 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you. For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;
That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

I would call it a beautiful parable helping us see the unseen eternal things of the gospel.

Parables do not change the simplicity of the gospel God saving dying mankind . . just gives a little honey to brighten the old eyes teaching us how to be humble . . . Two much self pride (honey) it can gag a horse LOL

We can see that gospel work as a labor of Christ's love demonstrated during the 1st century reformation . . .the 15th a carbon Copy .
The laws of men called a legion of fathers a hierarchy of men form of government Those puffed up ones that lord it over the non venerable pew sitters they did try and prove all things writen in the law and prophets(sola scriptura) was a heresy and thier heresy the new law the law by which Saul before born agin used as a licence to murder and torture those who did not agree with their "I heard it through the father grape vine as oral tradition" same structure in both reformations . Commandments of dying mankind different names for the legion of what some call patron saints "disembodied worker with a familiar spirit gods" .I believe officially 3500 and rising . . many waiting for the approval of the Pope.

Remember as a parable two sides to a coin. One Cesar wisdom of this world as that seen and the other hidden the wisdom of our invisible God . The same with the use of the word fathers (Legion) the Cesar side and the invisible hidden our Holy father not seen eternal God. . not a Cesar temporal seen

Acts 24:13 Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: (sola scriptura)

Paul moved by the Spirt of Christ turned things right side up. . rather than worshipping venerating many dying fathers but as the one manner prescribed in Mather 6 This one manner . . our Holy Father. . we venerate or worship one God . . . not fathers (3500) legion of gods .

God uses Moses as another example to protect the integrity of his living abiding word and not give it over to dying faithless mankind.

 

[Eleanor]

That is an opinion not a fact. Indeed Scripture itself refutes that claim by identifying spiritual truth outside of itself.

Of course, spiritual truth is from God.

So scripture doesn’t believe it :

I rest my case.

 

[Arch Stanton]

We can see that gospel work as a labor of Christ's love demonstrated during the 1st century reformation . . .the 15th a carbon Copy .
The laws of men called a legion of fathers a hierarchy of men form of government

The first century universal [Catholic] Church did not have an expiration date.