Irresistible Grace in Sanctification?

[prism]

If you haven't already done so, give that book I mentioned, "Four Views on Eternal Security," a read. The four views asserted and critiqued are the Classical Calvinist, Moderate Calvinist, Reformed Arminian, and Wesleyan Arminian. Of course, that's about the "P" in TULIP but there's also a Counterpoint Series book, "Five Views on Sanctification," and "Christian Spirituality: Five Views on Sanctification." Both contain Reformed and Wesleyan viewpoints. One of the surprising things you'll find is how differently the various views define sanctification.

Years ago I believe I read at least one of those books, but the problem I have with those 'multiple view' books is that when I read one side's view, it sounds great, until I read the next view (ad infinitum ad nauseum), so in the end, I find myself heading back to Scripture.

 

[Carbon]

Our salvation began long before any of us ever drew out first breath.

Yes of course Josh. We were chosen in eternity.

But we were not sanctified then. It was predestined to be so. But was not done then.


You are not one of those eternal justification people, are you? Good grief I hope not.

Ephesians 1:3-6
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved.

You just proved yourself wrong. I don't have to.
Those who do not have a really good understanding of soteriology tend to do that.

.Nice move of the goalposts. I did not say our sanctification began prior to our being in Christ. I said is Irresistible Grace - grace accomplishing what God purposes it to accomplish - at work in sanctification prior to our salvation.

2 Thessalonians 2:13
But we should always give thanks to God for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth.

That's not moving the goalposts at all Josh. You are trying to prove God cleans up a person before he or she is saved (regenerated) ha, is it all smudged together for you? God did all this in eternity, saved, sanctified, etc...before we even existed?

All of it happens by God's grace,

Well obviously.

and God's grace accomplishes what God purposed from eternity for it to accomplish.

Yes, indeed.

"Irresistible Grace" is sometimes called "Effectual Grace" because it is grace God effectually applies to those he has chosen, or determined, to save. That is, by definition, an example of IG prior to salvation.

So God does not work in real time with His chosen? He effectually saves them before they are even created and exist?
God is outside of time, He is not subject to it, we are. He communicates to us in time.

So He applies IG to His elect who He plans to save in time? Ha, oh please prove that with scripture.

He applies his grace effectively to those He has chosen to save, not just those He has already saved. The two are not mutually exclusive conditions.

Now which is it, He applies His grace or His IG? There is a difference.

Did you maybe mis up God's love and mercy with IG?

"God from all eternity did by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass; yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin; nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established."​

This teaches IG?

But, apparently, that did not include the sanctification of those He has chosen to save.

Ha. Your all over the place. It's looking confused.

"By the decree of God, for the manifestation of His glory, some men and angels are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others foreordained to everlasting death."​

Yes, of course.

And that, apparently, did not include the sanctification of those He chose to save.

Of course, those chosen and regenerated in time are also sanctified. I'm not denying any of that. Your trying to prove this all literally happened before a person is saved. Well, good luck.

"As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto. Wherefore they who are elected being fallen in Adam are redeemed by Christ, are effectually called unto faith in Christ by His Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified, and kept by His power through faith unto salvation. Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only."​

"Foreordained all the means thereunto"? and among those means is the elect being sanctified?

"It pleased God, in His eternal purpose, to choose and ordain the Lord Jesus, His only-begotten Son, to be the mediator between God and men, the prophet, priest, and king; the head and Savior of the church, the heir of all things, and judge of the world; unto whom He did, from all eternity, give a people to be His seed, and to be by Him in time redeemed, called, justified, sanctified, and glorified."​

God gave a people to His chosen mediator to be sanctified..... but God's grace was not accomplishing that task between eternity and the day of one's salvation?

Chapter 14 of the WCF explains how sanctification is accomplished at the time of salvation "

1. They who are effectually called and regenerated, having a new heart and a new spirit created in them, are further sanctified, really and personally, through the virtue of Christ’s death and resurrection, by His Word and Spirit dwelling in them; the dominion of the whole body of sin is destroyed, and the several lusts thereof are more and more weakened and mortified, and they more and more quickened and strengthened, in all saving graces, to the practice of true holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord.

That does not conflict in any way with the earlier WCF statements asserting God's eternal ordaining.

Ha, you cant call on the WCF to support you.

It will not support you in trying to say God sanctified anyone before they are born again.
Was it predestined? Yes, of course.

 

[Carbon]

Carbon said:
Prior to his salvation?
Scripture, please.

Our salvation began long before any of us ever drew out first breath.

@Josheb Now I have met some people who believe our salvation, justification, and sanctification already happened in eternity. I hope you are not one of those people and just in case you are I will try to correct you.


Read and consider this by John Flavel.

That the elect are not justified from eternity is clear, because although their justification is purposed in eternity, it is not purchased and applied until time. We are justified by Christ’s blood and by faith. (Rom. 5.9,1) The elect sinner is not freed from condemnation nor justified till he is united to Christ, which union is by faith, and takes place during the elect’s life-time. It is both irrational and unscriptural to imagine that men can be justified before they exist. God’s purpose or intention to justify them is not the same as His actually justifying them. Besides, John 3.18 expressly declares that only "he that believeth in Him (Christ) is not condemned." Furthermore, in the great chain of salvation mentioned in Romans 8.30, the elect are first predestined and called before they are justified. Lastly, it is highly derogatory to Christ to teach eternal justification, for men had to be lost before He could save them. Justification is the fruit of His meritorious death and satisfaction given to justice. Justification is not, therefore, from eternity.

This goes for salvation, justification, and sanctification.

hope this helps

 

[Carbon]

Years ago I believe I read at least one of those books, but the problem I have with those 'multiple view' books is that when I read one side's view, it sounds great, until I read the next view (ad infinitum ad nauseum), so in the end, I find myself heading back to Scripture.

It is a really good book, I recommended it to @Josheb. But it is not for everyone at every time. If God leads you to look into sanctification in time, then there you go.

 

[Carbon]

First let's define "Irresistible Grace" (IG), because that term simply means God accomplishes what He sets out to accomplish with His grace. IG does not mean humans cannot resist God. IG is not "puppet theology."

So, yes, God accomplishes all the sanctification He intends.

Irresistable grace actually means, "the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith."

When a Calvinists say that grace is irresistible, he means that the Holy Spirit never fails to call, regenerate, and save those whom the Father has elected and Christ has redeemed.

 

[Carbon]

@Josheb
WCF(10.1) reminds us that God’s irresistible grace does not save people against their wills but by “renewing their wills . . . so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.”

 

[prism]

It is a really good book, I recommended it to @Josheb. But it is not for everyone at every time. If God leads you to look into sanctification in time, then there you go.

I see all three in time, tied to the incarnation. Only election in eternity.

 

[Ladodgers6]

@Josheb Now I have met some people who believe our salvation, justification, and sanctification already happened in eternity. I hope you are not one of those people and just in case you are I will try to correct you.


Read and consider this by John Flavel.

That the elect are not justified from eternity is clear, because although their justification is purposed in eternity, it is not purchased and applied until time. We are justified by Christ’s blood and by faith. (Rom. 5.9,1) The elect sinner is not freed from condemnation nor justified till he is united to Christ, which union is by faith, and takes place during the elect’s life-time. It is both irrational and unscriptural to imagine that men can be justified before they exist. God’s purpose or intention to justify them is not the same as His actually justifying them. Besides, John 3.18 expressly declares that only "he that believeth in Him (Christ) is not condemned." Furthermore, in the great chain of salvation mentioned in Romans 8.30, the elect are first predestined and called before they are justified. Lastly, it is highly derogatory to Christ to teach eternal justification, for men had to be lost before He could save them. Justification is the fruit of His meritorious death and satisfaction given to justice. Justification is not, therefore, from eternity.

This goes for salvation, justification, and sanctification.

hope this helps

The only think I would add, is that Justification is a one-time declaration, and not that it takes place during the elect's life-time. Everything else is spot on.

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes of course Josh. We were chosen in eternity.

But we were not sanctified then. It was predestined to be so. But was not done then.


You are not one of those eternal justification people, are you? Good grief I hope not.

I would offer.

Many confuse the literal work Lamb slain from the foundation .The six days he did work with the promised outward demonasttin to the whole world. We are not saved by the demonstration

Christ does al the work of salvation he is not served by the dying hands of fallen mankind .

Job 23 informs us He is of one mind and always does whatsoever His soul pleases . . he performs that which is appoints to us. Can't divide grace.

 

[Eleanor]

The only think I would add, is that Justification is a one-time declaration, and not that it takes place during the elect's life-time. Everything else is spot on.

A one-time forensic declaration that takes place with faith (Ro 3:28), as does salvation (Eph 2:8-9).

 

[Carbon]

I would offer.

Many confuse the literal work Lamb slain from the foundation .The six days he did work with the promised outward demonasttin to the whole world. We are not saved by the demonstration

That seems like another way of saying it.

 

[Josheb]

Grace is "irresistable" in the sense that no one resists that which he desires, is good for him, pleasing to him, comforting to him, enabling to him, peace to him, inner rest to him, security to him,

That has nothing to do with the I in TULIP. People resist God and His desires every day. Irresistible Grace is about God, not man. God's grace accomplishes its purpose.

That is precisely why God's grace is irresistible, because God makes it so to the elect.

God doesn't have to over-power us with his grace. He simply makes it irresistbible to us.
I certainly didn't resist the grace of new birth and faith. I gobbled it up!

The "I," the Irresistible Grace of TULIP, has nothing to do with "the sense that no one resists that which he desires." Nothing. It has nothing to do with no one resisting what is" good for him, comforting to him," etc. Nothing. It has nothing to do with you gobbling up the new birth other than God accomplishing His purpose. IG not the sinner's desires; it's God's desires.

And whether or not God has to "overpower" us with His grace, he does do so.

Job 14:18-22
But the falling mountain crumbles away, And the rock moves from its place; water wears away stones, its torrents wash away the dust of the earth; so, You destroy man's hope. You forever overpower him, and he departs; You change his appearance and send him away. His sons achieve honor, but he does not know it; or they become insignificant, but he does not perceive it. But his body pains him, and he mourns only for himself."

Acts 2:1-4
When the day of Pentecost had come, they were all together in one place. And suddenly there came from heaven a noise like a violent rushing wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting. And there appeared to them tongues as of fire distributing themselves, and they rested on each one of them. And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit was giving them utterance.


God is not asking anyone's permission to do what He does. Questions like, "Would you like to be saved today?" or "Is it alright if I now save you?" or "Would now be a good time to kill you and send you to hell, or should I come back another time?" do not exist in the Bible.


People resist what they desire every day. The resist what is comforting to them every day. They resist what is good for them, pleasing to them, and what would bring them security. Peter knew better than to deny Jesus, but he did it anyway and he did it repeatedly. Dogs go back to their vomit. Even Christians do what they do not want to do and don't do what they want to do. Peter knew better than to treat Jewish converts differently than Gentile converts but he did it anyway.

Irresistible Grace is God accomplishing His purpose in the sinner's life whether or not the sinner is aware of God or not, whether the sinner wants God to do so or not. The sinner is irrelevant to IG.

 

[Josheb]

@Josheb
WCF(10.1) reminds us that God’s irresistible grace does not save people against their wills but by “renewing their wills . . . so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.”

WCF 10.1 does state God renews the will of the elect, but it makes no mention of God not doing so against the predestined sinner's will.

"All those whom God hath predestinated unto life, and those only, He is pleased, in His appointed and accepted time, effectually to call, by His Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ: enlightening their minds, spiritually and savingly, to understand the things of God, taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them an heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by His almighty power determining them to that which is good; and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by His grace."​

But it does, in fact, explicitly state they are made willing. Post #166 is incorrect. WCF 10.1 should be read in a manner consistent with WCF 3.1, and 3.5. A person is made willing..... without doing violence to their will...... and without any foresight of [sinner's] faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them. What God did, He "hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath He, by the eternal and most free purpose of His will, foreordained all the means thereunto." That happened before any human was made. WCF 10.1 cannot be read in contradiction with itself, or with scripture. See also WCF 5.6, 6.4-6,

"Man by his fall having made himself incapable of life by that covenant, the Lord was pleased to make a second, commonly called the covenant of grace: wherein He freely offered unto sinners life and salvation by Jesus Christ, requiring of them faith in Him, that they may be saved, and promising to give unto all those that are ordained unto life, His Holy Spirit, to make them willing and able to believe."​

The sinner is made willing by God's grace without doing violence to the will of the one being saved.
The sinner's will is irrelevant.
As I recently posted in another thread, there are no occasions where God is asking permission, "Is it okay if I orchestrate the circumstances of your life?" or "Is it alright with you if I save you now?" or "Is it okay with you if I kil you today and send you to hell?" The unregenerate, not-indwelt person has only their flesh. They do not have any Spirit within by which they might please God. Their mind is hostile to God and they do not and cannot please God. They think the things of the Spirit are foolishness and they do not understand them.

WCF 9 states,

1. God hath endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor by any absolute necessity of nature determined to good or evil.
2. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom and power to will and to do that which is good and well-pleasing to God; but yet mutably, so that he might fall from it.
3. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.
4. When God converts a sinner and translates Him into the state of grace, He freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.
5. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to good alone, in the state of glory only.

God makes the sinner's will what God wants the sinner's will to be because the sinner cannot do so on his own.

 

[Josheb]

Years ago I believe I read at least one of those books, but the problem I have with those 'multiple view' books is that when I read one side's view, it sounds great, until I read the next view (ad infinitum ad nauseum), so in the end, I find myself heading back to Scripture.

LOL! Yes, that is sometimes the case with me, too. I found that to be especially true with "Christian Spirituality." I enjoyed the first three definitions but find only one of them consistent with scripture. The going back to scripture ti verify what's read is one of the benefits of those type of books. That kind of reading is what got me into the habit of verifying what I read and then - over the course of time and practice - developing a repertoire of writers I know to be more faithful to scripture than others (at least on given topics). That practice and the knowledge garnered thereof is especially useful when reading about eschatology. Some folks make the most outlandish claims that may seemingly sound correct but a quick check with scripture proves the writer.... um, shall we say "inventive"? That's a nice way of saying they are making up stuff and attributing it to God .

 

[Josheb]

Yes of course Josh. We were chosen in eternity.

But we were not sanctified then.

I did not say we were. A straw man is being argued. I've noted this twice. What I said is the Spirit is working by grace toward the sinner's sanctification prior to the sinner's salvation. There is no "Yes, of course... but....." based on a straw man.

But we were not sanctified then. It was predestined to be so. But was not done then.

.....has absolutely nothing to do with what I posted.

You are not one of those eternal justification people, are you? Good grief I hope not.

I see my weekend away changed little. No, I am not one of those eternal justification people. I believed a person is sanctified when they are in Christ and not a moment before then, and I will thank you not to put words into my posts I did not write and to keep the posts about the posts, not the posters..... but on the occasion when that impulse cannot be resisted it is always best to do so benevolently.

Thank you for your time.

 

[Josheb]

Irresistable grace actually means, "the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith."

Yep. It is God's purpose to bring His own to faith. The same guy who said, "the Holy Spirit never fails to bring His own to faith," also said,

"What is meant by irresistible grace is not what the word seems to suggest, that grace is incapable of being resisted. Indeed, we are capable of resisting God’s grace, and we do resist God’s grace. But the idea here is that, in spite of our natural resistance to the grace of God, God’s grace is so powerful that it has the capacity to overcome our natural resistance to it. That’s why I prefer the term effectual grace rather than irresistible grace, because this grace effects what God intends to effect by it."​

And...

"Hence, we call this irresistible grace. It's grace that works. It's grace that brings about what God wants it to bring about...........
I prefer the term effectual grace, because the irresistible grace of God effects what God intends it to effect."​

Irresistible Grace means God accomplished what He purposes it to accomplish. Splitting hairs over wording is a waste of everyone's time.

When a Calvinists say that grace is irresistible, he means that the Holy Spirit never fails to call, regenerate, and save those whom the Father has elected and Christ has redeemed.

Yep. None of which is contrary to what I posted.


Thank you for your time.

 

[Eleanor]

The "I," the Irresistible Grace of TULIP, has nothing to do with "the sense that no one resists that which he desires." Nothing. It has nothing to do with no one resisting what is" good for him, comforting to him," etc. Nothing. It has nothing to do with you gobbling up the new birth other than God accomplishing His purpose. IG not the sinner's desires; it's God's desires.

It is God who gives the elect the desire for his grace, which desire they do not resist, but by which they "gobble it up."

The unregenerate do not desire his grace (1 Co 2:14).

 

[Carbon]

WCF 10.1 does state God renews the will of the elect, but it makes no mention of God not doing so against the predestined sinner's will.

Never said it does.

Do you believe God does this against the sinner's will?

 

[Carbon]

I see my weekend away changed little.

Your weekend away? Changed little?

What was it supposed to change?

 

[Eleanor]

WCF 10.1 does state God renews the will of the elect, but it makes no mention of God not doing so against the predestined sinner's will.

Conundrum, that.