If it's True That Justification by Faith ...

[Josheb]

Do you honestly think dating actually matters?

I do.

The book opens and closes with a temporal commentary.

Revelation 1:1-3
The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bondservants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bondservant John, who testified to the word of God and to the testimony of Jesus Christ, even to all that he saw. Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of the prophecy and heed the things which are written in it; for the time is near.

Revelation 22:7-10
And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book. I, John, am the one who heard and saw these things. And when I heard and saw, I fell down to worship at the feet of the angel who showed me these things. But he said to me, “Do not do that. I am a fellow servant of yours and of your brethren the prophets and of those who heed the words of this book. Worship God.” And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."


Near to what? If it is near to the time of when the book was written, then the dating matters. Most commentaries (and I have read many) either skip over Rev. 1:3 and do not comment at all on the verse, or they do not use the normal meaning of the word in its ordinary usage (and they typically appeal to some consensus of other theologians). If the "bookends" are not ignored and the words mean what they state, then dating matters.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Near to what? If it is near to the time of when the book was written, then the dating matters. Most commentaries (and I have read many) either skip over Rev. 1:3 and do not comment at all on the verse, or they do not use the normal meaning of the word in its ordinary usage (and they typically appeal to some consensus of other theologians). If the "bookends" are not ignored and the words mean what they state, then dating matters.

As Revelation is written symbolically, showing the entire intra-advent period with the call to watch and walk in perpetual expectancy being a call for every generation, then the portions that are for us specifically in each generation should be able to be seen.

Would this not be a correct assumption?

Does not Revelation offer pastoral application for every generation? This is not merely predictive prophecy locked to a specific generation only.

This was written to a decidedly Johannine audience originally, and we go from there, yes?

Maybe with the DP's and the need to counter sensationalism and theological distortions it's different and dates are important I'm not sure. But I have a difficult time seeing dates as important to us at all, at all.

 

[EarlyActs]

That sounds more like the letter to the Galatians rather than the Romans.

It's in all of them if you know what you are looking for. Many commentators have said that Galatians and Colossians are kind of in the heat of debate, while Romans is about the same thing in a calm mood.

 

[EarlyActs]

That sounds more like the letter to the Galatians rather than the Romans.

Rom 3, 4, 9, 10, 14, 15 all show signs of tensions with Judaizers.

 

[Josheb]

As Revelation is written symbolically,

Much, if not most, of Revelation is symbolic, and/or allegorical and the book employes just about every literary device known to humanity.

That does not mean verses 1:3 and 22:10 should not be read literally.

showing the entire intra-advent period with the call to watch and walk in perpetual expectancy being a call for every generation, then the portions that are for us specifically in each generation should be able to be seen.

I understand. I'm going to share some of the idealist pov but I am going to part ways (maybe) because I trust God in my generation because He has already kept the promises (relevant to Revelation), not because He will keep his promises. This is one of the conditions that separates the orthodox eschatologies from modern futurism. The latter does not believe God has kept His promises and they pronounce the promises fulfillment soon to come time after time, again and again, and no promises get fulfilled. It never seems to dawn on them they use the words "soon" and "near" literally but John absolutely positively could not possible have done so . The more orthodox perspectives fall somewhere in the middle. An Amillennialist or an Idealist will have differing degrees of belief in the predictive nature of Revelation and its preterism. The Postmils are going to find a lot more predictive and preterist content and the Historicists a lot less.

Me? I do not fit well into any of the prescribed categories. Maybe someone will start a thread on Rev. 1:19 and we can sort through which parts of the book fall into which category (and then the futurists will show up and tell us were all wrong .

Would this not be a correct assumption? ................................

All great questions @Hazelelponi. My answer would take us far, far afield of the op, so I trust you understand my reluctance. For now, I think the dating important, but not because I feel dependent on an early (or late) date. I simply find the early date reconciles best with scripture, regardless of what Irenaeus wrote. I'd argue with Irenaeus either way. I'm not a big fan of appeals to the ECFs. those guys were a messy bunch (much like the first century Church). If we followed the majority of them, we'd probably all be antisemitic. Many think any Christian that doesn't see an eschatological significance for Israel to be antisemitic . I think that is wrong.

Can't wait to read what @XrzrX tells me is my doctrine . LOL

 

[prism]

Rom 3, 4, 9, 10, 14, 15 all show signs of tensions with Judaizers.

100% of Galatians (all 6 chapters) involves tensions with Judaizers

 

[prism]

It's in all of them if you know what you are looking for. Many commentators have said that Galatians and Colossians are kind of in the heat of debate, while Romans is about the same thing in a calm mood.

ok, I'll go with that. (only because I'm in a hurry).

 

[prism]

And why were they on different subjects to different groups?

Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles.

Acts 9:15-16 NKJV
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [16] For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

Romans 11:13 NKJV
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

 

[Hazelelponi]

I'll be quiet.

 

[brightfame52]

Justification by His Blood !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now Justification by His Blood means at least these two things #1 They for whom He shed His Blood and Justified, they have been made Righteous ! The word Justified here in this verse is dikaioō and means:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom He shed His Blood are by that declared Righteous, pronounced righteous !

And its not a result of faith or believing, but in His Blood ! It could read Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified in his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Justification is within the sphere of the Blood, not because of an act of the creature !

Its by the blood, that satisfied Law and Justice !

#2 They for whom The blood was shed for and Justified thereby are saved from wrath, because they are delivered from the penalty of sin ! All for whom Christ died are Justified in His Blood and have been delivered from the wrath to come as Per 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

See when He was raised from the dead after having died for THEIR OFFENCES, that Resurrection gave Evidence of all for whom He died, SHED HIS BLOOD for, it was evidence of their Justification from all their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So they have been delivered from the wrath that others are not delivered from for their offences as Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

What things ? These things Eph 5:3-5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Those Christ died for, shed His blood for, have been saved by the blood, from wrath , which is against those things, and a lot more, this list is by no means exhaustive, but nevertheless, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, in His Blood they are delivered from the wrath to come !

 

[brightfame52]

Justification

The elect are virtually justified at the resurrection of Christ; and hereI maintain, {1} That God the Father's act towards Christ then, was his actual justifying of Him, as are common Head and Surety. {2} That Christ, as our Surety in our room and stead, was actually justified from all the sins of the chosen of God charged upon him. Hence he was unloosed from the bands and chains of death Judicially, and made to sit at the right hand of the Majesty on High. {3} That by this act passed upon Christ, all his spiritual seed was actually justified in him, in respect of God's act, and Christ's actual Justification in every sense, as their Surety. {4} But yet they are not actually justified {personally & experimentally}with Christ, until their believing; wherein they are made in some measure conformable unto the resurrection of Christ. Till then they're not brought out of the dungeon of a natural state; nor are the fetters of spiritual death knocked off, till they receive, by faith, that justifying act passed upon Christ in their own consciences, whereby they are made to rise with him; and therefore, to be brief and plain, I thus word it: The chosen ones are actually justified in Christ ever since his resurrection; but virtually only with Christ until they believe. Richard Davis{Vindication of the Doctrine of Justification and Union before Faith,1698.}https://supralapsarian.com/PDF Files/davis-justification.pdf​

 

[prism]

I'll be quiet.

No don't, all input is appreciated.

 

[Eleanor]

Paul was an Apostle to the Gentiles.

Acts 9:15-16 NKJV
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel. [16] For I will show him how many things he must suffer for My name's sake."

Romans 11:13 NKJV
For I speak to you Gentiles; inasmuch as I am an apostle to the Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,

And how does shat relate to post #97, the topic?

 

[Josheb]

No don't, all input is appreciated.

@Hazelelponi may correct me, but I think she simply meant she intended to stay on topic and not derail the op. The op is about justification and the belief Romans was first written, not end times and the chronology of Revelation. We got off track for a few posts. Now we're not.


Justification is an article of faith upon which the Church stands, but Romans was not the first epistle written. It's not even close to being the first epistle written. I'm not sure what was intended with the mention of 1 Thessalonians but I do not know of any theologian who thinks 1 Thessalonians is the foundation for justification as a a foundational article. I do not believe the words, "justified," or "justification" ever occur in 1 Thessalonians. I'm not sure how 1 Thes could be foundational if it never mentions the word. I'd also like to read the source for Luther claiming Romans was the first epistle written. I do not believe that to be the case, and even if it were, then he was mistaken and the question then becomes, "Why should we have any regard for Luther's mistaken chronology?" Romans 2-5, Galatians 2-3, and James are clearly the epistles speaking most foundationally to the matter of justification. Paul and James approached the matter differently and Luther wasn't a big fan of James's letter.

f it's true, that 'justification by faith' is the article by which the church stands or falls, then why did not Paul write the book of Romans first......?

He didn't. Romans was not the first epistle written.

 

[EarlyActs]

100% of Galatians (all 6 chapters) involves tensions with Judaizers

we do not disagree on that.

I mentioned the detangling because Jewish and Gentile believers alike would be entangled by Judaizers almost faster than Paul could make new ones. Do you have an issue with that view?

 

[EarlyActs]

Justification by His Blood !

Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Now Justification by His Blood means at least these two things #1 They for whom He shed His Blood and Justified, they have been made Righteous ! The word Justified here in this verse is dikaioō and means:

I.
to render righteous or such he ought to be

II.
to show, exhibit, evince, one to be righteous, such as he is and wishes himself to be considered

III.
to declare, pronounce, one to be just, righteous, or such as he ought to be

All for whom He shed His Blood are by that declared Righteous, pronounced righteous !

And its not a result of faith or believing, but in His Blood ! It could read Rom 5:9

9 Much more then, being now justified in his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

The Justification is within the sphere of the Blood, not because of an act of the creature !

Its by the blood, that satisfied Law and Justice !

#2 They for whom The blood was shed for and Justified thereby are saved from wrath, because they are delivered from the penalty of sin ! All for whom Christ died are Justified in His Blood and have been delivered from the wrath to come as Per 1 Thess 1:10

10 And to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, even Jesus, which delivered us from the wrath to come.

See when He was raised from the dead after having died for THEIR OFFENCES, that Resurrection gave Evidence of all for whom He died, SHED HIS BLOOD for, it was evidence of their Justification from all their offences Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

So they have been delivered from the wrath that others are not delivered from for their offences as Eph 5:6

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

What things ? These things Eph 5:3-5

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

Those Christ died for, shed His blood for, have been saved by the blood, from wrath , which is against those things, and a lot more, this list is by no means exhaustive, but nevertheless, all for whom Christ shed His Blood for, in His Blood they are delivered from the wrath to come !

Do you know what imputation is when compared with actual change in a person? There is a very distinct meaning, and we can say that justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to a person who believes. This deals with an issue that is different from a change in a person's life.

 

[brightfame52]

Do you know what imputation is when compared with actual change in a person? There is a very distinct meaning, and we can say that justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to a person who believes. This deals with an issue that is different from a change in a person's life.

You gone off to a rabbit trail.

 

[Eleanor]

Do you know what imputation is when compared with actual change in a person? There is a very distinct meaning, and we can say that justification is the imputation of Christ's righteousness to a person who believes. This deals with an issue that is different from a change in a person's life.

Actually. . .justification is a declaration of "not guilty," a sentence of acquittal, a pronouncement of sinlessness. . .which is followed by the imputation of Christ's righteousness.

faith --> salvation (remission of sin) --> justification (declaration of sinlessness) -> imputation of Christ's righteousness --> sanctification

 

[Hazelelponi]

No don't, all input is appreciated.

I was starting to derail is all.... It's all good

 

[prism]

He didn't. Romans was not the first epistle written.

I realize that that's why I'm asking why it wasn't the first epistle written seeing that it contains the article by which a church stands or falls, namely, justification by faith alone.