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If it's True That Justification by Faith ...

@makesends
Have you an answer, why you harp only on justification, and not the rest of what Scripture refers to as effected by [at least] regeneration and God's gift of faith, and not only accomplished at the cross? Salvation itself, for instance...

This is not accurate, Ive mentioned Faith and the Spirit in this exchange, you see what you wanna see

post 102 I stated

Yet Justification is a Divine Fact before we believe it, Faith causes us to believe the Fact of our free Justification, as it is made known in the Gospel Rom 1:17. Justification is our Righteousness, and is made known to the Spiritual eye of Faith, and so the Gospel is also called the word of Faith Rom 10:8,17 !
post 71

 
I'm asking it as a 'why not', not as a 'why' question.
Read it again.

Ummmmm..... not an answer to my question. Is the question you are asking.....


Since Romans is the epistle that explains the article upon which the Church stands (justification)..... why was it not the first letter written by Paul? Why wasn't Paul's first letter the book of Romans? Why wasn't Paul's first letter the one in which he explained justification?​


Is that what you're asking?
Why NOT the first letter written?

Now, the second question: Is this a rhetorical question or do you not already know the answer?

If you do not know the answer and are sincerely asking the question, then the answer lies in the fact the apostles did not know where the early Church would faulter and they addressed the needs as they arose. The first epistles were written to address concerns related to the early persecution and anticipated return of Christ. Then matters of doctrine, followed by the problem of (Judaic) legalism and the creeping influences of paganisms. Then came pastoral letters. I've always considered the progression natural (no pun intended).
 
Read it again.


Why NOT the first letter written?

Now, the second question: Is this a rhetorical question or do you not already know the answer?

If you do not know the answer and are sincerely asking the question, then the answer lies in the fact the apostles did not know where the early Church would faulter and they addressed the needs as they arose. The first epistles were written to address concerns related to the early persecution and anticipated return of Christ. Then matters of doctrine, followed by the problem of (Judaic) legalism and the creeping influences of paganisms. Then came pastoral letters. I've always considered the progression natural (no pun intended).
Back on 'ignore'. Thanks (but I guess that makes no sense.)
 
Which explains why you don't know why Romans was not the first letter written.
Correct, especially since "Justification is the Article by which the Church stands or falls (foundational).
 
Correct, especially since "Justification is the Article by which the Church stands or falls (foundational).
The question is committing a false cause fallacy.

If justification by faith is the article by which the Church stands or falls, then it should have been written about first.

Or, more accurately,

If Luther's personal opinion is correct, then justification by faith should have been written about first.

Or even,

Because Romans is foundational to the article of justification it should have been written first.



None of which are logical or true. Degree of significance status does not necessarily dictate order of occurrence (the don't start surgeons on hearts or brains - they don't start autopsies there, either). Ordinal ranking can occur based on any number of criteria. Justification by faith could have been the last thing written and its position of importance would be unaffected. Confusing what is normative with what's ordinal (or what's nominal) is a mistake. Also, Luther is correct, but Paul did not know Luther or Luther's opinion. Luther is post hoc commentary. Furthermore, Justification by faith (JbF) is a logical necessity so having to write about it ironic since anyone could have and everyone should have figured it out as the necessity it is. That problems arose from fools falling backwards upon works has nothing to do with the priority status of JbF.
 
What the resurrection of Christ means !

1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If the resurrection of Christ didn't mean that those He died for are Justified from all their sins, then there would not have been any truth of Justification for Faith to receive and embrace, and faith would have been worthless, but the resurrection of Christ was a public exoneration that all those He died for are clear, of any accusation; free from guilt or blame before the Justice of God ! Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

The word Justification here is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Thats why for anyone Christ died for and was raised in behalf of, for anyone to die in their sins and unbelief, God is guilty of injustice and punishing eternally a Righteous person free from guilt and supposedly acceptable to Him !

At His resurrection it was a deliverance from out of the prison of death, declaring that by His death He hath received full satisfaction or propitiation, for all those sins and offences that Christ as Surety Shepherd had charged to Him, meaning all the sins of the Elect or His Sheep, for remember He rose from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So it is only reasonable to conclude that He died as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 ! So it was their sins that He was delivered for Rom 4:25;8:32 ! The resurrection of Christ means the Justification of all for whom He died !
 
What the resurrection of Christ means !

1 Cor 15:17

17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.

If the resurrection of Christ didn't mean that those He died for are Justified from all their sins, then there would not have been any truth of Justification for Faith to receive and embrace, and faith would have been worthless, but the resurrection of Christ was a public exoneration that all those He died for are clear, of any accusation; free from guilt or blame before the Justice of God ! Rom 4:25

Who was delivered for[because of] our offences, and was raised again for[because of] our justification.

The word Justification here is the greek word dikaiōsis and means:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification

Thats why for anyone Christ died for and was raised in behalf of, for anyone to die in their sins and unbelief, God is guilty of injustice and punishing eternally a Righteous person free from guilt and supposedly acceptable to Him !

At His resurrection it was a deliverance from out of the prison of death, declaring that by His death He hath received full satisfaction or propitiation, for all those sins and offences that Christ as Surety Shepherd had charged to Him, meaning all the sins of the Elect or His Sheep, for remember He rose from the dead as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Heb 13:20

20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

So it is only reasonable to conclude that He died as the Great Shepherd of the Sheep Jn 10:11,15 ! So it was their sins that He was delivered for Rom 4:25;8:32 ! The resurrection of Christ means the Justification of all for whom He died !
What has that to do with the placement of Romans in the chronology of the Pauline epistles? Where did you read anyone asking for the meaning of the resurrection or a definition of justification?
 
What has that to do with the placement of Romans in the chronology of the Pauline epistles? Where did you read anyone asking for the meaning of the resurrection or a definition of justification?
Well it has to do with Justification by Faith
 
Well it has to do with Justification by Faith
Yes, it does, but no one is asking what JbF means. Given the premise of JbF.......


Why wasn't Romans the first letter written?


Tell @prism why Romans wasn't the first letter written if JbF is the article upon which the Church stands of falls.
 
Yes, it does, but no one is asking what JbF means. Given the premise of JbF.......


Why wasn't Romans the first letter written?


Tell @prism why Romans wasn't the first letter written if JbF is the article upon which the Church stands of falls.
That part Im not interested in, Im interested in the part that says Justification by Faith. And Im not going to be going back and forth with you about it, just ignore my input if it doesnt interest you or if it bothers you. If Im breaking a rule point it out, im sure the mods will
 
That part Im not interested in, Im interested in the part that says Justification by Faith. And Im not going to be going back and forth with you about it, just ignore my input if it doesnt interest you or if it bothers you. If Im breaking a rule point it out, im sure the mods will
Mod hat: If one isn't interested in the topic of the OP, why respond in the thread? But, given that the definition of Justification is relevant to the question of the OP, I'm leaving the post up as is. However, to answer by the second sentence here is off topic, addressing the poster and not the post —violation of rule #2.2.
 
Mod hat: If one isn't interested in the topic of the OP, why respond in the thread? But, given that the definition of Justification is relevant to the question of the OP, I'm leaving the post up as is. However, to answer by the second sentence here is off topic, addressing the poster and not the post —violation of rule #2.2.
Okay but the poster addresses me first
 
@makesends
Have you an answer, why you harp only on justification, and not the rest of what Scripture refers to as effected by [at least] regeneration and God's gift of faith, and not only accomplished at the cross? Salvation itself, for instance...
This is not accurate, Ive mentioned Faith and the Spirit in this exchange, you see what you wanna see

post 102 I stated
I'm not sure how the fact that you have mentioned Faith and Spirit in this exchange answers the fact that you deal with justification as you do. In other words, your post 102 is just a reiteration of your theme, not explaining why justification is definitely different from the other many things Christ did for us at the Cross.

Further, you might want to explain in what way your definition of justification is relevant to the OP. Bring the point around to the OP. If you have done so, please point it out to me.

You are right that I don't see it. The remark about I see what I wanna see is rather contentious, and uncalled for on this forum. See rule 2.1
 
@makesends


I'm not sure how the fact that you have mentioned Faith and Spirit in this exchange answers the fact that you deal with justification as you do. In other words, your post 102 is just a reiteration of your theme, not explaining why justification is definitely different from the other many things Christ did for us at the Cross.

Further, you might want to explain in what way your definition of justification is relevant to the OP. Bring the point around to the OP. If you have done so, please point it out to me.

You are right that I don't see it. The remark about I see what I wanna see is rather contentious, and uncalled for on this forum. See rule 2.1
I have explained enough to you and you don't understand
 
What the resurrection of Christ means ! cont

Also Christ's resurrection as the Head of the Sheep Heb 13:20 was a portentous, and judicial act, whereby God the Father as the Supreme Judge did Justify His Son and those Chosen in Him [The Sheep] Him from all their sins laid upon Him or imputed, and them from their own sins, His Resurrection was an actual Justification for all whom He died as their Surety Head, not for any of His own sins personally was He vindicated, but for those sins and transgressions charged to Him by the Father,specifically those of His Sheep !
 
Okay but the poster addresses me first
No, I did not. I asked tow very op-relevant questions:

  1. What has that to do with the placement of Romans in the chronology of the Pauline epistles?
  2. Where did you read anyone asking for the meaning of the resurrection or a definition of justification?


Neither question is about the poster. And, for the record, the definition of "justification" is incorrect. It's a theological definition that does not fully include how the word is used in Greek outside of post-Biblical man-made doctrine. The word ("dikaiōsis") simply means "defense." It is a legal term pertaining to the ability of someone to have sufficient standing to make one's case. Every day, all day long, courts around the world make decision regarding what cases will be heard by asking, "Does this case have any merit? Is there any legal basis for this case to even be heard?" If there is no basis for pleading the case then the case never gets heard. An obvious example of that in American jurisprudence would be what cases the SCOTUS decides to hear and which ones it does not hear. Any case that has no Constitutional relevance is never heard. It is always referred back to the lower courts. This is the denotative meaning of the word dikaiōsis. Quoting extra-biblical sources defining the word connotatively to fit later doctrine does not change the original meaning of the word.

We are justified first and foremost by Christ and his blood. Absent that basis, absent that justification, there is no grounds by which anyone could stand before god to even plead their case!!! Why not? Because the judgment and the verdict has already been rendered.


John 3:18-19 NIV
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.


Every single human ever created stood in a state of condemnation simply for not believing in Jesus. Scripture speaks of "judgment day," but according to John 3, the judgment has already been rendered. What judgment day really means is sentencing day, the day when the just recompense for sin is meted out. Everyone will be called to account for every word spoken and every deed done. Blessedly, there is now no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. No one has any excuse for sin, and no one will escape the consequences thereof. Those covered in the blood of Christ will be called to account but for them they need make no case. They and they alone have justification, the privilege, the legal right to stand before God and plead their case and their case will not be couched in their own thoughts, their own feelings, their own choices, nor their own actions. They may not even have to utter a word because their robes will be washed white in the blood of Jesus. God will recognize His own work. The verdict for that person will be...


Justified:
Washed
in the blood of
My Son

(gavel falls)


The op asks about JbF, implicitly treating JbF as a given, regardless of its definition. The only question asked in the p is, "why did not Paul write the book of Romans first, since the book of Romans is foundational to the article of justification?"

When that question was highlighted, the answer was, "That part Im not interested in..."

NOT interested in the one question asked in the op.


There are many reasons why Romans was not written first and the idea the importance of a doctrine should dictate what should be written when is unfounded, unexplained, and incorrect. Justification by faith is found throughout scripture beginning with verses like,

Genesis 15:6
Then he believed in the LORD; and He credited it to him as righteousness.

That is a pre-Law example. What was it Abraham believed? He believed his Christological descendants would outnumber the stars.

Job 40:8
Will you really annul My judgment? Will you condemn Me that you may be justified?

Little, if anything Paul wrote in Romans was new. Like Jesus, Paul simply restored the original meaning of scripture. No one has ever had any means by which s/he could even claim a basis to stand before God and make some case explaining his/her sin and why s/he should not be destroyed.

Job 32:2-3
But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned because he justified himself before God. And his anger burned against his three friends because they had found no answer, and yet had condemned Job.

God's answer, instead, is...

Job 33:29-33
Behold, God does all these oftentimes with men, to bring back his soul from the pit, that he may be enlightened with the light of life. Pay attention, O Job, listen to me; keep silent, and let me speak. Then if you have anything to say, answer me; speak, for I desire to justify you. If not, listen to me; keep silent, and I will teach you wisdom."

God justifies and He desires to do so for those who will simply shut up and listen. He'll pour the blood of His Son all over a person, drench him/her beyond the point of saturation say that He and He alone is glorified. No word need be spoken when justified by the blood.

That's one of the reasons Romans was not the first book written. Another would be the gospel hadn't fully reached the Gentile populations who for centuries had been rooted in salvation by either works or knowledge. In Rome, Paul (and Peter) had the God-ordained privilege to preach the gospel in the courts of Caesar (and they were murdered for doing so because no one could tell Caesar he was going to have to bow his knee to Jesus and survive - there is no justification in Caesar's court for that case).
 
Justified before God, by His Death !

All for whom Christ died are by that Justified before God, by His Death, and this is so because all for whom He died hath been reconciled to God by His Death Rom 5:10, and that while they themselves are yet being enemies Rom 5:10

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Now notice this Truth:

when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son

Paul saying of believers, that when they were enemies /unbelievers. In fact the word enemies means [echthros]:

A.used of men as at enmity with God by their sin
i.
opposing (God) in the mind

Now He is saying, while believers were unbelievers and in their minds opposing God, at enmity with Him, that while they were in that state by nature as others, that nevertheless they were reconciled to God by the death of His Son.

Reconciled here means :

A.
to reconcile (those who are at variance)

B.
return to favour with, be reconciled to one

C.
to receive one into favour

This means that they are in a state of having been approved of God !. This is true of them even though in reality they are opposing Him in their mind by their sin of unbelief !

Now for this to be so,it means that the Merits of Christ's Death have been applied Legally to them. That means its recognized by God's Law to be so !

This is True and based upon the Redemption in His Blood or by His Death Rom 3:24

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

The redemption is the :

I.a releasing effected by payment of ransom
A.
Redemption, deliverance

B.
Liberation procured by the payment of a ransom

The releasing means:

act of absolving; a freeing from blame or guilt; release from consequences, obligations, or penalties.

It means total forgiveness of all sins, not liable to any punishment or consequences of sins, and made Just before God as though never sinned in Adam or in themselves !

And so Reconciliation to God is not possible without redemption here described. So those for whom Christ died for, just as they are reconciled to God while enemies by His Death / Blood, SO LIKEWISE the same ones are Justified and free from all guilt of sin, and consequences of sin, while Enemies, by the Death of His Son, and since this is True of them as Enemies then it is as they are Unbelievers !

This is a Gospel of Kingdom Truth !
 
Those Jesus Christ died for are by his death alone, which is also called his obedience Rom 5:19, doeth make or declare them Righteous/Justified before God Rom 5:19

19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous !

For one cannot be made or declared righteous without being Justified, for what is Justification but to be declared righteous. That is stated in Vs 18

18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.

That word justification dikaiōsis:

I.
the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him

II.
abjuring to be righteous, justification Its the same word for Righteous in Vs 19 !

Now it is not their faith that makes any of this true before God, neither does faith cause the existence of ones Justification before God [excepts for Christ's faithful obedience] for it has been beforehand, but Christ by His Spirit and Gospel does make it known to us Our Righteousness and Justification, along with our forgiveness of sins, hence they were Justified by Christ before they come to believe it, hence faith is the means of how we receive the knowledge of our Justification as stared Lk 1:77

77 To give knowledge of salvation/Justification unto his people by the remission of their sins,

and from this comes comfort and conscience Peace through believing. Rom 15:13

Now the God of hope fill you with all joy and peace in believing, that ye may abound in hope, through the power of the Holy Ghost.
 
Why Faith also Justifies !

We are said to be Justified by Faith in that, not because Faith effects ones Justification, but because it is effected /generated into the ones already yet Justified by Christ's Blood Rom 5:9,19 and its the result of the Sanctifying Work and Power of the Spirit 2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
 
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