If hell is eternal, then so is evil

[makesends]

makesends said:
I hold to neither [eternal conscious torment] nor annihilationism, though I tend to think of both when I read the way Scripture is written. … I know what the direct or plain Bible references to this generally sound like to me—and they are on both sides, to me—and I know what reason says, taking from other references relative to the subject.

It would be a serious claim to say that God is talking out both sides of his mouth regarding the state of the wicked after judgment—in other words, that Scripture itself teaches contradictory positions. I am therefore inclined to think the problem here, for you, is not one of scriptural clarity but of interpretation. And interpretive issues are not resolved by retreating into agnostic indeterminacy, but by further exegesis.

God 'talking out of both sides of his mouth' is not the characterization I think I have made of what I read. That it is prudent to by exegesis prefer one notion to another, or even to be convinced of one to the denying of the other, is not what I argue against here. I have no problem at all with you believing in Annihilationism. I do have a problem with those believing in it for sentiment's sake or liberal unbiblical reasons. And the same goes for those believing in ECT.

We need not suspend judgment at the point where Scripture and doctrine require adjudication. What appears in your reply is not simple humility but a recurring epistemic posture: indecision cloaked in pious reserve, a kind of agnostic retreat that refuses to let revealed categories do their work. You also continue to exhibit impatience with creaturely existence and temporal language, as though such categories were too low or crude to bear theological truth. But such a posture is difficult to square with revelation itself. God has not despised such things. The eternal Son entered the temporal order in the incarnation according to his human nature, and God has been pleased to accommodate his revelation to creaturely, temporal forms of speech.

There you say it yourself. "God has been pleased to accommodate his revelation to creaturely, temporal forms of speech". There, within the term, "accommodate", is implied a higher reality than the merely temporal and anthropomorphic. I am sorry, but if you recall me claiming in the past, several times, actually, the amazement at the word of God to use terminology that we commonly use, to convey absolute truth, you should see that I don't deny it. I only deny our ability to sound the depths of it. A certain reservation concerning our ability to understand things that extend rather obviously beyond our knowledge is indeed prudent, then. We can use the word, "death", and, "sin", but we don't know as much as apparently we think we do, to make firm conclusions as to some of the facts we profess. As I have often said, I think when we get to Heaven we will all be shown for fools, for the concepts we held as absolute by way of understanding/comprehension.

Our amazement at the wisdom of God will wash over all our notions, when we see him as he is, and understand what he has done, but that is no reason not to continue [here on earth] to pursue the truth, by way of study, exegesis, prayer and obedience.

I have not suspended judgement. I am still learning and studying. Before these last couple of threads treating with the matter I had not given Annihilationism serious consideration. I have already shown my biggest problems with it, and if I had to choose one over the other, (as though ECT was the only alternative), it would be pretty close to 50-50 at this point. But no, I don't have to decide. I continue to learn, to study, to think and wonder.

Yes, I agree God has not despised such things. But he has rebuked some for speaking beyond what they know. The simple-hearted are not rebuked for quieting their heart, like a weened child with his mother, in the face of things that are too wonderful for them.

But, as I said, I don't have a problem with you believing, and even being convinced in your mind, what you believe. And I will easily (and somewhat ashamedly) admit that I don't engage in extensive exegesis about things that I don't have as much interest in as you do. No doubts there, and kudos to you. I don't have your drive.

On matters God has addressed, the task is not to curate possibilities and imaginings but to confess what has been made known. We need not suspend judgment between named positions and fill that gap with private intuition and appeals to mystery. Rather, we must return to the text, weigh the relevant passages in their canonical and theological context, and labor toward a determinate judgment by disciplined exegesis.

It's quite a bit more than private intuition. That I admit to some degree of dot-connecting that goes beyond strong exegesis to arrive at a synthesis of what I read and study does not render it false, but only one more POV, and suspect. I see the same degree of dot-connecting in Annihilation, and mainly two big logical leaps, that apparently you deny are logical leaps. I don't say you are wrong. You may well be right. But I'm not convinced.

makesends said:
My best recourse is to step a little to the side and admit to what we DO know, that God is altogether powerful and just, and intended that there be sin that would be completely vanquished, and death put to death.

I submit that we know a good deal more than that, not because we are especially clever but because God has revealed it. He has spoken beyond first principles, revealing more than his power and justice in the abstract.

Of course. I did not mean to say nor to imply that we don't know more than what I listed! We even have trustworthy insight, the longer and closer we know him. BUT, God is not like us. Line up your systematic theology! I do the same. But I'm skeptical of myself for the same reasons as I am skeptical of others, and, I think, for good reason.

I really don't think that I disagree with you to the extent you think I do, concerning the validity of scriptural expressions that sound temporal and even anthropomorphic. My problem comes with my trust in the dot-connecting. Well, that, and human solid trust in human reasoning that lacks the full facts. Eg, that we die is not disputed, but, that word, "die", opens up facts-to-become-concepts that we don't yet have in hand. Same with sin and eternity and love and so many other things.

 

[atpollard]

Is Sodom still burning from the eternal fire? Of course not. You have to open your eyes and see....

Sodom (the city on Earth), no. However, Sodom (the residents of that city upon whom the fire fell) may still be burning. Jesus has not returned and "death and the grave" have not yet been thrown into the Lake of Fire (among the last things), so the imagery of Luke 16:23-24 [NASB] "And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" may yet be the reality for the people of Sodom awaiting final judgement and the Lake.

This is true whether "eternity" holds ECT or Annihilation (because we are not yet at the End).

 

[John Bauer]

Sodom (the city on Earth), no. However, Sodom (the residents of that city upon whom the fire fell) may still be burning.

Where? Not anywhere on Earth.

Since Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns "are now displayed" as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire, it cannot mean immaterial souls languishing in some spiritual realm of fiery torment—because no one can see that. It must mean the towns themselves—or rather what's left of them (e.g., charred rubble).

 

[Hobie]

Sodom (the city on Earth), no. However, Sodom (the residents of that city upon whom the fire fell) may still be burning. Jesus has not returned and "death and the grave" have not yet been thrown into the Lake of Fire (among the last things), so the imagery of Luke 16:23-24 [NASB] "And in Hades he raised his eyes, being in torment, and saw Abraham far away and Lazarus in his arms. And he cried out and said, 'Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, so that he may dip the tip of his finger in water and cool off my tongue, for I am in agony in this flame.'" may yet be the reality for the people of Sodom awaiting final judgement and the Lake.

This is true whether "eternity" holds ECT or Annihilation (because we are not yet at the End).

No one has gone to hell, they have to be judged first. We see it clearly before anyone can be cast into the Lake of Fire.
This is the place for the wicked of perdition, but it hasnt happened yet, but the Wicked will be judged and find their end at the Lake of Fire along with the instigators of the deception.

2 Corinthians 5:10
For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Christ gives us some clues of what would be this lake of fire, which is what the bible calls, 'Hell' for sinners and those not in the book of Life.

Matthew 7:13 King James Version (KJV)
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28 King James Version (KJV)
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42 King James Version (KJV)
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 25:41 King James Version (KJV)
"41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:"

There is a reward of the wicked, the punishment, that will eternally destroy them and all evil. But all will be judged, as God is just and will be vindicated in His judgements.

 

[JesusFan]

I see a fault in the logic along these lines: To my thinking, sin is an infinite crime against God, because God is infinite. I'll not say that he cannot [in some sense temporally] end it, but to my mind it doesn't make sense to suppose that his infinite retribution runs out of fuel.

BTW, in this issue, I can argue both sides, and even, to some degree, agree to both sides.

The reason why only the death of Jesus can cover for all of my sins would be that the wrath of God abides forever upon those who are lost sinners, and due to Jesus being very God, his atonement covers eternal worth and judgement in full

 

[JesusFan]

We dont have to argue, just read what scripture says and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. The wicked will be separated from God in this 'eternal fire' which will consume till there is no stubble, this is their punishment. We are not going to heaven and watch friends and family burn, for eternity, no that is not a paradise for any true believer.

Did you get this theology from Ellen White though?

 

[JesusFan]

I think our notions of eternal dying vs death of death (and my notion of both/neither by way of intensity, too, for that matter) will all look foolish when we see the facts after our resurrection.

I think that some who hold out for the lost being burnt away are basing that view upon them viewing God would be Tyrant if He was allowing them to get tortured forever, but i do not see as getting roasted alive in an oven, but being aware of living in ternal darkness and in their own 'hell" apart from god forever

 

[JesusFan]

Someone at least ACKNOWLEDGES that other verses EXIST!

Jesus made it very clear that its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, and that was not due to them just being burnt away and cease to exist

 

[atpollard]

Where? Not anywhere on Earth.

Where was the "rich man" in the story recorded in Luke? ... There.

 

[atpollard]

Since Jude said that Sodom and Gomorrah and the neighboring towns "are now displayed" as an example by suffering the punishment of eternal fire, it cannot mean immaterial souls languishing in some spiritual realm of fiery torment—because no one can see that. It must mean the towns themselves—or rather what's left of them (e.g., charred rubble).

Are you advocating that for the men of Sodom, the events of Revelation 19 & 20 are already past tense? They have been completely destroyed?

 

[makesends]

We dont have to argue, just read what scripture says and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. The wicked will be separated from God in this 'eternal fire' which will consume till there is no stubble, this is their punishment. We are not going to heaven and watch friends and family burn, for eternity, no that is not a paradise for any true believer.

Those aren't the only two possibilities [from a human perspective]. (I say, "from a human perspective" because in the end, only what happens was "possible", and that is what God determined to happen.)

I resent the implication that I haven't been reading what Scripture says and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. Your tape measure will be stretched out to measure you, just like mine will do me for saying so.

 

[makesends]

No one has gone to hell, they have to be judged first. We see it clearly before anyone can be cast into the Lake of Fire.
This is the place for the wicked of perdition, but it hasnt happened yet, but the Wicked will be judged and find their end at the Lake of Fire along with the instigators of the deception.

Your reply is typical of a temporal mindset. As @John Bauer has pointed out so well, I have a certain disrespect—even disdain—for the temporal mindset. It is one thing to talk of things that are temporally described in the Scriptures. But to take those temporal things—i.e. the life and death we see from here, and the passage of time from the beginning to the coming of our Lord, when we will be raised from the dead—some to payment for their enmity and rebellion, some to life everlasting—doesn't mean it hasn't happened "yet". When it happens hasn't been seen by us in this life. That's all. For example, "Today you will be with me in Paradise" hints at the bogus thinking of 'soul sleep', as though passage of time is all there is.

That I am incapable of understanding outside the temporal mindset and incompetent at describing what little I do reason, does not render the human temporal POV valid, when it extrapolates what is in Scripture temporally described into temporal implications. As John indicated, if those temporal implications are temporally described (ECT and Annihilation are both temporally described in Scripture)—well enough—but what implications are not, but only at best sequentially described, doesn't mean that in God's having spoken them into fact, they haven't happened yet. When we are raised incorruptible, I rather imagine that we will see all time as actual, but inconsequential, but for the facts within it.

So, reasoning that the judgement hasn't happened yet, and all the other things sequenced about it, doesn't lend itself well to your vehemence and scorn and condemnation of someone else's perspective that is also drawn from Scripture. What is the "deception" you refer to here? And who are these "instigators of the deception"? I hope you don't mean to continue condemnatory language against those who differ with you on the reading of the language of Scripture.

 

[makesends]

Jesus made it very clear that its a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God, and that was not due to them just being burnt away and cease to exist

Where did Jesus make that very clear? What are you referring to?

But Annihilationism doesn't claim that it is not a terrible thing. I, too, have a problem with the notion of a temporal passage of intensity of torment, that is in the end over and done with, and I have a problem with it for several reasons. But that argument (that it is a terrible thing to fall into the hands of an angry God) isn't one of them.

 

[Hobie]

Those aren't the only two possibilities [from a human perspective]. (I say, "from a human perspective" because in the end, only what happens was "possible", and that is what God determined to happen.)

I resent the implication that I haven't been reading what Scripture says and asking the Holy Spirit for guidance. Your tape measure will be stretched out to measure you, just like mine will do me for saying so.

Well, for myself I feel its important to look at what scripture says and try to come together in understanding the truth of Gods Word, rather than strive to win a contest of analytics or debating competition. As shown by the minutiae questioning of what is meant by "Pandora's Box' arguments as you can see here...

 

[Hobie]

Here is a good study that I came across from a pastor that is realizing how much pagan Greek thought has come into the Christian church.

"The doctrine of eternal hell is taught by many Christian denominations and many believers accept it as factual without ever challenging it. This study seeks to examine all of the biblical evidence on the subject so that you can make an informed decision about this doctrine.

The doctrine of eternal hell teaches that hell is a place of eternal torment, pain, suffering, and agony. It teaches that the souls of the wicked enter hell upon death. Then, they spend all of eternity in the most horrific agony imaginable. They can never escape the torment, not even for a second. After billions and billions of years, their suffering and agony will only have just begun. For the sins committed in a single lifetime, the sinner will spend billions and trillions of years writhing in the utmost agony and suffering.

Eternal hell fire creates a logical paradox with other Christian teachings. It appears contrary to the beautiful truth that "God is love" (1 John 4:16), and He loves sinners unconditionally, and He "is kind unto...the evil." (Luke 6:35). This creates a paradox. Recognizing this, many authors have written blogs, articles, and even entire books, trying to rationalize how God could love sinners unconditionally, and be kind to sinners, and yet torture them in the most horrific manner throughout all of eternity. Even a child can recognize this dilemma. Any child who has burned their finger on the stove knows the severity of that pain. To experience that sensation over the entire surface of the body would be horrendous indeed, even if it lasted only for a minute. To experience that degree of pain for a lifetime would be unimaginable. And yet, how could a good God inflict heinous suffering on humans for millions, billions, and trillions of years? The magnitude of suffering is beyond sadistic.

Furthermore, consider the fact that salvation is a "narrow way and few there be that find it" (Matthew 7:14). This verse would suggest the majority of humanity could end up in the lake of fire. Imagine hundreds of billions of sentient beings, writhing in severe agony for all of eternity. Modern society deplores governments who have secret, underground facilities where they torture a few of their countrymen until they die. This behavior is rightly considered to be evil, satanic, and inhumane. However, we are told to believe that God has a far-superior torture facility that can inflict pain 24 hours a day. In this facility he tortures the majority of the human beings he created for all of eternity. If humans are "evil" and "satanic" for brutally torturing a few people for a short time, then what does that make a god who tortures most of humanity for all of eternity? Such a facility of systematic torture would make god the most inhumane, brutal, and entirely evil being that has ever existed.

The doctrine of eternal hell fire has caused many a thinking person to doubt the Bible or give up faith altogether. The time has come to re-examine this doctrine to determine what the Bible really teaches about hell.

LIFE versus DEATH​

It is critical to understand there is an obvious but profound difference between "life" and "death." According to the Bible, Human beings are "mortal" or subject to death. Paul taught that at the Resurrection, the righteous are granted "immortality" (1 Cor. 15:53). The Greek word for immortality is athanasía which simply means without death. The wicked do not receive athanasía. Their punishment is death. God said, "the soul that sinneth, it shall die" (Eze. 18:4). This presents a problem for those advocating an eternal hell, because they must come up with some way to make "dead" sinners "live" for eternity in hell fire. This is an impossible proposition. Dead people are not alive! Death and life are mutually exclusive. From a biblical standpoint, the dead are not alive, and the living are not dead.

The definition of death is quite simple: It is the opposite of life. The living can breathe, move, think, and feel. The dead cannot. The Bible teaches that the dead know nothing, and they have no emotions or feelings (Eccl. 9:5-6).

In order for a person to feel and experience the pain and agony of eternal hell, that person must be alive. Not only must that person be alive, but in order to experience hell for all of eternity, that person must have eternal life.

LIFE = Reward of the Righteous​

The Bible plainly teaches that eternal "life" is the reward of the righteous, not of sinners:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Over and over again in the Bible "everlasting life" and "eternal life" are described as the reward of the righteous (Dan. 12:2; Matt. 19:29, 25:46; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; John 3:15, 4:36, 6:40,47,54, 10:28, 12:25, 17:2-3; Acts 13:48; Rom. 5:21; Gal. 6:8; 1 Tim. 1:16, 6:12,19; Titus 3:7; 1 John 2:25, 5:11,13,20). This volume of biblical evidence is indisputable.

If everlasting life is a reward reserved only for the righteous, then how could the wicked have "everlasting life" in hell? Does the Bible teach that the wicked also obtain everlasting life?

DEATH = Reward of the wicked​

Jesus taught that the wicked would perish, not live forever:

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (John 3:16)

Notice how Jesus contrasts "perish" with "everlasting life." The two words convey opposite ideas. To "perish" means to have everlasting death, not everlasting life in hell.

The Greek word for "perish" is apollymi, which means "to destroy." If a life is destroyed, then it is no longer living. It has perished. It has ceased to exist. The Greek aorist tense used by Jesus indicates this is an event at a point in time. The Greek does not support the idea that perishing is an ongoing activity.

According to Jesus, there are only two possible future states. One can either perish (cease to exist), or one can have eternal life with God. There is not a third choice of eternal life in hell. The Bible teaches over and over again that the reward of the wicked is death, not eternal life in hell. Following are some examples:

See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil. (Deut. 30:15)
...for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat...Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life... (Matt. 7:13,14)

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. (John 3:15)

...He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. (John 5:24)

For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23)

For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. (Rom 8:6)

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (1 John 5:12)

The wages of sin is not merely death of the physical body, but also the death of the soul itself:

The soul that sinneth, it shall die(Eze. 18:20).
And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. (Matt. 10:28)

Notice in the last verse above that Jesus said that man can "kill" a body, but not the soul. Killing the body is the first death. Jesus is making a contrast here between the power of God and man. God can do more than "kill" a body. God can "destroy" (Greek apollymi) both the body and the soul. This makes it abundantly clear that the purpose of hell is to permanently destroy the body and the soul. The purpose of hell is not to be a galactic dungeon where God and the holy angels delight in torturing and inflicting pain and misery upon the wicked throughout all the ceaseless ages of eternity. Rather, hell is a place where the wicked are destroyed and cease to exist.

Is Hell Burning Now?​

In Matthew 10:28, Jesus taught that the purpose of hell is to destroy both body and soul. Jesus said of the wicked, "thy whole body should be cast into hell" (Matt. 5:30). When a person dies and is buried, their body remains in the ground until the resurrection. Therefore, they are not cast in hell fire until after the resurrection of damnation. This is proven by the fact that all those who were not resurrected with the righteous in the first resurrection, remain dead in their graves until the second resurrection:

But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished...And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened...and the dead were judged... And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. (Rev. 20:5,12,15)

Notice that only after the resurrection of the wicked and their judgment are souls cast into the lake of fire. The Bible refers to the result of being cast into the lake of fire as "the second death." If the wicked are going to be alive in hell forever, then why call it the second death? Why not call it what it is: the second life?

The truth is, no one is in hell today because the judgment does not take place until the end of the Millennium:

The Lord knoweth how to...reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished. (2 Peter 2:9)

Why would God punish people before the day of judgment? Peter says God is reserving, or holding back, His punishment of the unjust until the "day of judgment." The wicked will receive a fair hearing before the judgment seat of God before they are punished....

​

 

[Hobie]

What is the Eternal Punishment that Jesus spoke of?​

In Matthew 25:46 Jesus said the wicked would go into "everlasting punishment." This could be understood in one of two ways:

• The punishing is to continue through eternity
• The effect of the punishment is eternal

In order to ascertain which is the correct interpretation, other Scriptures must be examined. There is not a single verse in the entire Old Testament about an eternally burning hell, but there are a number of passages which describe a fire that will annihilate the wicked:

...the wicked shall perish...into smoke they shall consume away. (Ps. 37:20)
For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch. ... And ye shall tread down the wicked; for they shall be ashes under the soles of your feet... (Mal. 4:1,3)

In the New Testament, Paul said the wicked...

...shall be punished with everlasting destruction... (2 Thes. 1:9)

Notice that the punishment is "everlasting destruction," not everlasting torture. The Bible teaches that the wages of sin is "death" (Rom. 6:23). James said sin leads to "death" (James 1:15). Ezekiel said that soul that sins will "die" (Eze. 18:4,20). Therefore, the punishment is death. The mechanism of putting a person to death is fire, and that fire will be tormenting, but the punishing is not everlasting. Rather, it is the effect of the punishment that is everlasting. Eternal death is an everlasting punishment.

The Four Proof-Texts of an Eternally Burning Hell​

Many Christians are surprised to discover the entire doctrine of eternal hell fire rests upon only four passages of Scripture. These will be examined in detail.

1. The Rich man and Lazarus in Hades?​

Jesus told a parable about an unnamed rich man and a poor man named Lazarus. The rich man was aware of Lazarus but did little to help the poor man. Lazarus eventually died and went to “Abraham’s bosom” (Luke 16:22). Afterward, the “rich man” also died, but he went to “Hades” (Luke 16:23). What is Hades? Hades was a mythological place invented by the Greeks long before Christ was born on this earth. It was the abode of the dead, under the earth. Through Hades flowed the river Phlegethon which, instead of being a river of water, was a river of flames of fire. In Greek mythology, the people in Hades were not on fire or burning. It was merely a place from which there was no escape. Jesus and all Jews listening to Him would have recognized Hades as a mythological place. Therefore, they would have understood that Jesus was not talking about a real place. That would be like us telling a story about someone getting sent to the land of Mordor (from the Lord of the Rings). Anyone listening to our story would understand that Mordor was a fictional place and not real in any sense. Therefore, from the very start of this parable it is apparent Jesus is speaking about a fictional place.

From this fictional place, the rich man saw Abraham and Lazarus in paradise. He called out to Abraham and begged him to have Lazarus dip his finger into water and send him to cool his burning tongue. Some Christians say this parable proves that the righteous go to paradise when they die, and the unrighteous go to hell. The question to consider is, must we take everything in this parable to be literal? If we took every Bible parable as literal, then we would believe that mountains sing and trees have hands that clap (Isa. 55:12). If we take everything in this parable as literal, then the righteous go into Abraham’s bosom when they die, from whence they can witness the suffering of the wicked, and can hear their cries. We must also assume the dead are not spirits but have physical bodies because the “rich man” had a “tongue,” Abraham had a “bosom” and Lazarus had a “finger.” Even those who believe in the literal nature of this parable would be forced to concede that not everything portrayed in this parable is literal. The question is, where does the literal end and the symbolic begin? Was Jesus actually adopting the Greek mythological story of Hades and teaching that hell is filled with wicked people who are either hot or on fire? Or was He using symbolic language to make a point about treating the poor with kindness?

Interestingly, Jesus directly contradicts this parable in other places proving that it cannot be a true reflection of reality. Jesus taught that all who have died and are in their graves will be resurrected to life. The righteous will be resurrected to eternal life, and the wicked will be resurrected to face judgment (John 5:28-29). In Matthew 13, Jesus told a parable explaining the timing of the judgment. A farmer sowed good seed in a field, but an enemy came at night and sowed weeds. In explaining the meaning of the parable, Jesus said:

As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 13:40-42).

There are a couple of important teachings in this parable:

1. The wicked are burned in the fire at the "end of this world." According to Revelation, the "end of this world" takes place at the close of the Millennium. It is at this time, and not before, that the wicked are burned up in the fire.
2. When a farmer burns his weeds, they only burn until they are destroyed. The fire does not burn forever. Likewise, it is reasonable to assume the wicked will only burn until they are destroyed.

It is impossible to reconcile these verses with the parable about the righteous going to Abraham's bosom and the wicked going into mythological Hades upon death. In multiple places Jesus taught that the bodies of the righteous and the wicked are in their graves until their resurrection. The resurrection of the righteous takes place at the return of Christ, and then they will receive their reward of eternal life. The resurrection of the wicked takes place at the end of the Millennium, at which time they will be cast into the lake of fire. Since Jesus' other teaching contradicts a literal reading of this parable, the only logical way to reconcile the story of the Rich Man and Lazarus is to understand it as a fictional account meant to prove a point about being kind to the poor rather than it being a teaching on the nature of the afterlife.

2. Gehenna and Unquenchable Fire​

When Jesus describes hell in the book of Mark, three times he repeats these words: "Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44,46,48). This same passage, in abbreviated form, is recorded by Matthew and Luke, where only the "unquenchable fire" is mentioned (Matthew 3:12, Luke 3:17).

In Mark 9, Jesus is quoting Isaiah 66:24 which describes "corpses" of the wicked dead (not living people) lying upon the ground and burning. Jesus uses the word "Gehenna" to describe hell. Gehenna was a ravine south of Jerusalem where the residents of Jerusalem disposed their trash. This included the corpses of dead bodies, including animals. The burning trash produced smoke which was visible by the inhabitants of Jerusalem. This provided Jesus with a vivid example that the people of Jerusalem could relate to. Because additional trash was always being dumped into the ravine, the fires continually burned and the smoke appeared to be constantly rising from Gehenna. From a distance, Gehenna presented the illusion of continually burning, but in reality, the trash dumped there only burned until it was burned up. The trash did not burn forever. Gehenna only had the appearance of burning continually because new trash was constantly being added to it. This is a very important point.

Regarding "unquenchable" it should be understood that unquenchable does not mean eternal. It simply means the fire cannot be extinguished. Just because a fire cannot be extinguished does not mean it burns eternally. For example, when firemen encounter an "unquenchable" fire, it does not mean that fire will burn forever. It simply means the firemen do not have the equipment or capability to stop the fire. However, once the fire has burned up all of its fuel, it will extinguish on its own accord. Likewise, no one can stop or quench the fire of hell. However, this does not imply that hell will burn forever. It is reasonable to believe that it will only burn until it has consumed its fuel, which in this case is the bodies and souls of the wicked. Once the wicked are consumed, the fuel will be gone and the fire will cease on its own accord.

In Isaiah 34:10, Isaiah warns Edom (Idumea) that it would be destroyed with a fire that "shall not be quenched day or night." However, in the subsequent five verses, Isaiah describes a wide variety of birds, animals, and plants that will occupy the land that was burnt with unquenchable fire. As noted earlier, unquenchable fire is a fire that cannot be put out, but will extinguish on its own after exhausting its fuel supply. Anyone can travel to the land of Edom today (southern Jordan) and see that it is not still burning. Therefore, unquenchable fire should not be reinterpreted to mean eternal fire.

Regarding the undying worm, it is important to understand that a "worm" is not a human soul. This passage is not talking about human souls not dying, but worms not dying. There is no passage in the Bible where a human soul is ever described as a worm. Anyone listening to Jesus who happened to be familiar with Gehenna, would understand that Jesus was referring to the worms or maggots that eat dead flesh in Gehenna. In other words, the body parts not destroyed by fire would be eaten by worms and maggots. Again, Jesus was not saying the soul would live forever in hell. The point of the entire passage is that the wicked would be entirely destroyed in hell.

3. Smoke of Torment Ascending Forever​

Revelation 14:11 describes those who receive the mark of beast, saying "the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." Does this verse prove the wicked are tormented in hell forever? Revelation 14:11 quotes from a passage in Isaiah 34 that has already been fulfilled. Therefore, if we can determine how Isaiah's prophecy unfolded in the past, then it will give us insight into how Revelation 14:11 may unfold in the future. Isaiah, in describing the Lord's vengeance upon the nation of Edom, wrote, "the land thereof shall become burning pitch. It shall not be quenched night nor day; the smoke thereof shall go up for ever..." (Isa. 34:9,10) Immediately after making this statement, Isaiah goes on to say that the same land shall be occupied by animals and birds and plants (Isa. 34:11-15). How could birds nest in a burning land? How could plants grow in burning pitch? How could wild beasts inhabit a land on fire? That could only happen if the fire was extinguished. Thus, the fire Isaiah is describing—whose smoke ascends forever—is obviously only temporary. It is clear that Isaiah is using hyperbolic or symbolic language to warn of Edom's destruction. While Edom did indeed cease to exist, history records that it died out gradually over many centuries, and not in a burst of brimstone and fire. Even more importantly, it is certainly not burning and smoking to this day. This proves that the symbolic language of Revelation 14 cannot be used to justify an eternally burning hell any more than Edom's fire was eternal.

After a fire is extinguished, the smoke can still be observed in the sky for hours or even days after the event. When the Bible says their "smoke shall ascend for ever," it means that the evidence or effect of the punishment will be seen forever. It does not mean the torment lasts forever!

4. Eternal Torment​

Revelation 20:10 says the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented in the lake of fire "for ever and ever." When one reads that verse, one might easily conclude that hell burns forever, but it is important to consider the Biblical meaning of the word "forever." Many times it does literally mean forever, but there are other times when it does not. Let us consider some examples.

• Exodus 21:6 - Moses commanded that the slave "shall serve him [his master] for ever." Does this mean that slaves will be serving their same masters in heaven throughout all eternity? Of course not! In this case, forever means only until the slave dies or is released from service.
• 1 Samuel 1:22 - Hannah said she was going to bring her son Samuel to the temple to "abide for ever." Is Samuel still serving in the temple today? No, he served in the temple only until he died.
• Proverbs 29:14 - "The king that faithfully judgeth the poor, his throne shall be established for ever." Does this mean a good king will rule forever? No, it means his throne will be established until the king dies.
• Jonah 2:6 - Jonah describes his descent into the ocean as "for ever." While it may have seemed to him like it lasted forever, he was only in the belly of the fish for three days and nights.

Therefore, the Biblical usage of the word "forever" allows for it to refer to events that do not last forever. When Jude described the "judgment of the great day", he writes that "Sodom and Gomorrah...are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire" (Jude 6,7). Anyone who has been to the Middle East knows that Sodom and Gomorrah are not burning today. They burned until the wicked were destroyed and then the fire went out. This proves that "eternal" fire does not equate to continual and endless burning, but instead describes a fire whose results are eternal.

While Revelation 20:10 does indeed say the devil will be tormented "for ever and ever," the same passage also refers to the lake of fire as the "second death" (Rev. 20:14). Therefore, it is reasonable to assume the devil will be tormented until his death, and not for all of eternity. This is verified by an Old Testament text that many scholars believe is a reference to the devil:

...therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more. (Ezek. 28:18-19)

​

 

[Hobie]

Eternal Hell Makes No Sense​

The doctrine of eternal torment creates a tremendous discontinuity between the Jesus who loved sinners so much that He rebuked the disciples for even thinking about calling down fire upon the Samaritans, and the Father who plans to roast people in hell for all eternity. Let us review some of the problems caused by this misinterpretation of the Bible:

1. It ruins heaven - Imagine you make it to heaven, but someone you loved—a parent, child, spouse, or friend—did not make it. For all eternity you will experience the pain of knowing that at the very moment you are enjoying the eternal kingdom, your loved one is experiencing the most horrific pain in hell. That would certainly put a dampener on the experience of the eternal kingdom, especially for parents who lost their children to the devil. There can never be any closure on your pain of loss, because you know that those you loved are continuing so suffer every moment of every day.
2. It a horribly unfair - Does the punishment fit the crime? How could billions and trillions of years of punishment be exacted upon those who only committed a single lifetime's worth of sins? The penalty so far outweighs the crime as to make it a monstrous injustice! Since our Father is a God of justice and fairness, this would be totally contrary to His nature.
3. It denies freedom of choice - We had no choice in being created. Now that we are here, what if we choose not to exist? Don't we have a right to die? Don't we have the freedom to choose non-existence? If we do not have that freedom, then we are hardly better than robots.
4. It lowers one's conception of God - People rarely rise higher than the conception of their god. Thus, it should be no surprise that beginning with the dark ages, when this doctrine took root in Christianity, down through the ages to today, Christian history has been filled with violence and warfare. The Catholic Inquisition is the supreme example of how people naturally act when they believe their god to be violent, ruthless, and vengeful.
5. It blasphemes the character of God - Who do you consider to be the vilest and lowest of all humans? Without hesitation, people like Hitler and Stalin come to mind. What was so vile and evil about these people? They tortured and killed their enemies without mercy. All the vileness of Hitler pales in comparison to the pure hatred, malice, and absolute wickedness of a being that would torture other beings for not years, not decades, not centuries, not millenniums, but for millions, and billions, and trillions of years, 24 hours a day, without respite, for all the endless years of eternity. Such a being is not a god, but represents the purest form of evil in the universe!

Conclusion​

The Bible describes Hell as an event that takes place at the end of the Millennium, when the wicked are raised to life, appear before the judgment seat of God, and are burned up and destroyed in hell fire. They suffer in torment, but only until they are destroyed. The wicked will receive a punishment that is commensurate to the degree of their wickedness (Rev. 22:12; Matt. 16:27; Luke 12:47,48).

God, who is a being of supreme love and mercy, has no pleasure whatsoever in the destruction of sinners (Eze. 33:11). However, He cannot permit sin to exist unpunished forever. Hell is necessary to rid the universe of those who stubbornly refuse to be saved and join God's kingdom of love. In similar fashion, a person with cancer in a part of their body has no pleasure in having that body part surgically removed. However, it is better to remove one part of the body than to lose the whole body to disease. Likewise, God, out of necessity, must perform His "strange act" to remove sin from this universe in order to prevent the disease of sin from being spread throughout the universe and infecting and destroying the rest of His creation.

It is important to acknowledge that many Christians teach the doctrine of eternal hell fire because they honestly believe that is what the Bible teaches. Hopefully this study has shed some light on that and helps you to have faith that our Father is truly a being of unconditional love. The Bible teaches that God loves sinners, and hell is a place of destruction, not a place of eternal torture.

 

[atpollard]

Much is made of fire (natural) burning things until they are "destroyed", but this is a fundamentally flawed understanding of both PHYSICS and CHEMISTRY.

Matter and Energy can neither be created nor destroyed.
This is a fundamental LAW of the universe. When Weeds or Branches (in the real world) are gathered and burned, they are not destroyed, they are transformed (physically and chemically) into smoke and ash. The "Fire" goes out when the transformation is complete (and there is no more fuel to support the fire).

Q1. How much burning is needed to completely transform a "soul"?
Q2. What does a "soul" transform into?
Q3. Is it significant that SCRIPTURE claims this "fire" does not go out ("eternal" and "unquenchable")?

Just a few thoughts to share.