If hell is eternal, then so is evil

[John Bauer]

Those who hold to the traditional doctrine of hell usually describe it as the final state of the wicked in eternal conscious torment; they are the reprobate, raised for judgment, justly condemned, and forever subjected to God’s punitive wrath. If there is no zone outside God’s sovereign control nor any kingdom that rivals his realm and rule, then some small corner of the renewed creation will be forever marred by sin where divine wrath is forever poured out. The wicked subsist forever; they remain in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, excluded from the blessedness of the redeemed, their enmity not healed but set forever. Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

That is one of my difficulties with the traditional view. It seems to require that, ultimately, evil is never actually abolished. Sin is not eradicated; it is quarantined. Hatred of God, misery, and rebellion remain forever as an everlasting pocket of anti-shalom within the new heavens and new earth.

But if that is so, in what sense are “all things” reconciled to him through Christ (Col. 1:20)? Redemptive history is, at the deepest level, the unfolding of God’s eternal purpose “to unite all things in him” (Eph 1:10), so that God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28). Judgment is the consummating act in that drama.

I understand the appeal to justice, but I struggle to see how the eschaton is truly consummated if a region of unending sinful resistance remains forever. That seems less like the complete triumph of redemption than the eternal preservation of a defeated-but-never-eradicated evil. But the language of Scripture seems clear in testifying that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere, describing an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself.

Question: How does the traditional view avoid the conclusion that evil is never finally abolished but eternally preserved under judgment, and in what sense, on that view, are all things united in Christ so that God is truly all in all?

 

[makesends]

Those who hold to the traditional doctrine of hell usually describe it as the final state of the wicked in eternal conscious torment; they are the reprobate, raised for judgment, justly condemned, and forever subjected to God’s punitive wrath. If there is no zone outside God’s sovereign control nor any kingdom that rivals his realm and rule, then some small corner of the renewed creation will be forever marred by sin where divine wrath is forever poured out. The wicked subsist forever; they remain in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, excluded from the blessedness of the redeemed, their enmity not healed but set forever. Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

That is one of my difficulties with the traditional view. It seems to require that, ultimately, evil is never actually abolished. Sin is not eradicated; it is quarantined. Hatred of God, misery, and rebellion remain forever as an everlasting pocket of anti-shalom within the new heavens and new earth.

But if that is so, in what sense are “all things” reconciled to him through Christ (Col. 1:20)? Redemptive history is, at the deepest level, the unfolding of God’s eternal purpose “to unite all things in him” (Eph 1:10), so that God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28). Judgment is the consummating act in that drama.

I understand the appeal to justice, but I struggle to see how the eschaton is truly consummated if a region of unending sinful resistance remains forever. That seems less like the complete triumph of redemption than the eternal preservation of a defeated-but-never-eradicated evil. But the language of Scripture seems clear in testifying that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere, describing an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself.

Question: How does the traditional view avoid the conclusion that evil is never finally abolished but eternally preserved under judgment, and in what sense, on that view, are all things united in Christ so that God is truly all in all?

I hold to neither ECT nor Annihilationism, though I tend to think of both when I read the way Scripture is written. But I think the IS of hell/LOF is entirely within God's activity (hand), and not in our view. I see all sorts of ways this could work out— perhaps primary to them all Demonstrated in CS Lewis' figurative redeemer, "Ransom", in his space trilogy. Ransom was bitten in the heel, while killing the figurative Satan in the stories. though Ransom himself is introduced in the last of the three books as now 'glorified', completely healthy, his heel never does completely heal, and is always painful, which is a pain he gladly bears for the sake of those he loves.

You've maybe heard me say that if anything can harm God, it would be sin. Sin is of a nature all its own, in its inception, its activity and its demise. This is something I have to leave up to God, though I see (to some degree) the enormity and horror of it, it being opposed to the Creator of all Reality. I'm not going to call it a vision, nor a dream—I don't know what it was—but one time I found myself being led through the vast regions of space, and seeing a gash, a wound, in reality, that was sin. (This happened at a time in my life that I first heard terms like Cosmic Treachery, and I don't know which came first—this 'dream' or the terminology that so closely fit what I saw.) What I saw was such a thing as to end reality by its very contradiction, but for the power of God to keep it at bay. In this mind, I see God as in the end, closing the wound, but, perhaps, leaving a scar. I can't say it is otherwise.

The difference between such a scar, whether held by God alone, or visible also to the Glorified Redeemed, and the Glory and Solidity of Heaven, does fit thoughts of the Praise to the Glory of his Grace, and a retelling of the Wisdom of Christ between us, when we are there. The fact that this vapor of temporal existence is past will no mean that the events of this temporal existence were not real, nor forgotten in the usual sense.

I don't think we know what death is, well enough to get too vehement one way or the other here. I know what the direct or plain Bible references to this generally sound like to me (and they are on both sides, to me), and I know what reason says, taking from other references relative to the subject. My best recourse is to step a little to the side and admit to what we DO know, that God is altogether powerful and just, and intended that there be sin that would be completely vanquished, and death put to death. We also know that God operates on a different "level" from the rest of reality, and that he is not like us, in our usual notions of speaking, thinking, doing, learning, and so on. Who am I to say that for him to speak is not the same as for him to create. Are his 'words' representing fact, or maybe the facts themselves? There WAS sin, and it too, in the end, is to his glory. And Christ did die to pay our price.

I vote neither. I propose a matter of intensity, and no relation to time-passage, neither ending nor continuing, but of mere fact.

 

[John Bauer]

I hold to neither [eternal conscious torment] nor annihilationism, though I tend to think of both when I read the way Scripture is written. … I know what the direct or plain Bible references to this generally sound like to me—and they are on both sides, to me—and I know what reason says, taking from other references relative to the subject.

It would be a serious claim to say that God is talking out both sides of his mouth regarding the state of the wicked after judgment—in other words, that Scripture itself teaches contradictory positions. I am therefore inclined to think the problem here, for you, is not one of scriptural clarity but of interpretation. And interpretive issues are not resolved by retreating into agnostic indeterminacy, but by further exegesis.

We need not suspend judgment at the point where Scripture and doctrine require adjudication. What appears in your reply is not simple humility but a recurring epistemic posture: indecision cloaked in pious reserve, a kind of agnostic retreat that refuses to let revealed categories do their work. You also continue to exhibit impatience with creaturely existence and temporal language, as though such categories were too low or crude to bear theological truth. But such a posture is difficult to square with revelation itself. God has not despised such things. The eternal Son entered the temporal order in the incarnation according to his human nature, and God has been pleased to accommodate his revelation to creaturely, temporal forms of speech.

On matters God has addressed, the task is not to curate possibilities and imaginings but to confess what has been made known. We need not suspend judgment between named positions and fill that gap with private intuition and appeals to mystery. Rather, we must return to the text, weigh the relevant passages in their canonical and theological context, and labor toward a determinate judgment by disciplined exegesis.

My best recourse is to step a little to the side and admit to what we DO know, that God is altogether powerful and just, and intended that there be sin that would be completely vanquished, and death put to death.

I submit that we know a good deal more than that, not because we are especially clever but because God has revealed it. He has spoken beyond first principles, revealing more than his power and justice in the abstract.

 

[Hobie]

Those who hold to the traditional doctrine of hell usually describe it as the final state of the wicked in eternal conscious torment; they are the reprobate, raised for judgment, justly condemned, and forever subjected to God’s punitive wrath. If there is no zone outside God’s sovereign control nor any kingdom that rivals his realm and rule, then some small corner of the renewed creation will be forever marred by sin where divine wrath is forever poured out. The wicked subsist forever; they remain in conscious rebellion, anguish, and hatred of God, excluded from the blessedness of the redeemed, their enmity not healed but set forever. Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

That is one of my difficulties with the traditional view. It seems to require that, ultimately, evil is never actually abolished. Sin is not eradicated; it is quarantined. Hatred of God, misery, and rebellion remain forever as an everlasting pocket of anti-shalom within the new heavens and new earth.

But if that is so, in what sense are “all things” reconciled to him through Christ (Col. 1:20)? Redemptive history is, at the deepest level, the unfolding of God’s eternal purpose “to unite all things in him” (Eph 1:10), so that God is “all in all” (1 Cor 15:28). Judgment is the consummating act in that drama.

I understand the appeal to justice, but I struggle to see how the eschaton is truly consummated if a region of unending sinful resistance remains forever. That seems less like the complete triumph of redemption than the eternal preservation of a defeated-but-never-eradicated evil. But the language of Scripture seems clear in testifying that every last enemy is destroyed, not quarantined somewhere, describing an unopposed, healed, consummated order in which no rival principle continues to assert itself.

Question: How does the traditional view avoid the conclusion that evil is never finally abolished but eternally preserved under judgment, and in what sense, on that view, are all things united in Christ so that God is truly all in all?

Amen, evil will come to an end at the Second Death, and along with Satan, and sin will be no more.

 

[fastfredy0]

Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved.

Interesting ...
Perhaps your premise that "Evil is never entirely eradicated; it is isolated and preserved" is false. It is possible IMO for God to cause someone to suffer for ever and yet the someone does not continue sinning. God could clear the mind of a person so it just realizes pain.
Granted, I have no scripture to back me up ... just a thought.

Also, what constitutes sin is determined by God. He could change the rules defining sin like He seemed to do when it came to divorce. Matthew 19:8-9 (ESV): "He said to them, 'Because of your hardness of heart Moses allowed you to divorce your wives, but from the beginning it was not so. And I say to you: whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery'".

... end of my suppositions

 

[JesusFan]

Amen, evil will come to an end at the Second Death, and along with Satan, and sin will be no more.

Second death is not cease to exist

 

[JesusFan]

I hold to neither ECT nor Annihilationism, though I tend to think of both when I read the way Scripture is written. But I think the IS of hell/LOF is entirely within God's activity (hand), and not in our view. I see all sorts of ways this could work out— perhaps primary to them all Demonstrated in CS Lewis' figurative redeemer, "Ransom", in his space trilogy. Ransom was bitten in the heel, while killing the figurative Satan in the stories. though Ransom himself is introduced in the last of the three books as now 'glorified', completely healthy, his heel never does completely heal, and is always painful, which is a pain he gladly bears for the sake of those he loves.

You've maybe heard me say that if anything can harm God, it would be sin. Sin is of a nature all its own, in its inception, its activity and its demise. This is something I have to leave up to God, though I see (to some degree) the enormity and horror of it, it being opposed to the Creator of all Reality. I'm not going to call it a vision, nor a dream—I don't know what it was—but one time I found myself being led through the vast regions of space, and seeing a gash, a wound, in reality, that was sin. (This happened at a time in my life that I first heard terms like Cosmic Treachery, and I don't know which came first—this 'dream' or the terminology that so closely fit what I saw.) What I saw was such a thing as to end reality by its very contradiction, but for the power of God to keep it at bay. In this mind, I see God as in the end, closing the wound, but, perhaps, leaving a scar. I can't say it is otherwise.

The difference between such a scar, whether held by God alone, or visible also to the Glorified Redeemed, and the Glory and Solidity of Heaven, does fit thoughts of the Praise to the Glory of his Grace, and a retelling of the Wisdom of Christ between us, when we are there. The fact that this vapor of temporal existence is past will no mean that the events of this temporal existence were not real, nor forgotten in the usual sense.

I don't think we know what death is, well enough to get too vehement one way or the other here. I know what the direct or plain Bible references to this generally sound like to me (and they are on both sides, to me), and I know what reason says, taking from other references relative to the subject. My best recourse is to step a little to the side and admit to what we DO know, that God is altogether powerful and just, and intended that there be sin that would be completely vanquished, and death put to death. We also know that God operates on a different "level" from the rest of reality, and that he is not like us, in our usual notions of speaking, thinking, doing, learning, and so on. Who am I to say that for him to speak is not the same as for him to create. Are his 'words' representing fact, or maybe the facts themselves? There WAS sin, and it too, in the end, is to his glory. And Christ did die to pay our price.

I vote neither. I propose a matter of intensity, and no relation to time-passage, neither ending nor continuing, but of mere fact.

We have to come back to the Lord Jesus, as it made it very clear that by rejecting Him to save themselves from their sins, there would be an ternal judgement and punishment, and to fear God in all of that, not to be just burnt and cease to exist anymore

 

[Hobie]

Second death is not cease to exist

Well lets take a look and see, as the devil's doctrine is that there is eternal life in Hell, and that God is a liar, and that people will not surely die as he told Eve in the Garden. God makes clear that sin will end along with those who continue in its bondage along with the originator. So lets look at what the Bible says will happen to the Wicked...

Job 21:30
"30 That the wicked is reserved to the day of destruction? they shall be brought forth to the day of wrath."

Psalm 37:10
"10 For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be."

Psalm 37:20
"20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the Lord shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away."

Psalm 37:28
"28 For the Lord loveth judgment, and forsaketh not his saints; they are preserved for ever: but the seed of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 37:38
"38 But the transgressors shall be destroyed together: the end of the wicked shall be cut off."

Psalm 73:17-18
"17 Until I went into the sanctuary of God; then understood I their end.18 Surely thou didst set them in slippery places: thou castedst them down into destruction."

Psalm 92:7
"7 When the wicked spring as the grass, and when all the workers of iniquity do flourish; it is that they shall be destroyed for ever:"

Psalm 104:35
"35 Let the sinners be consumed out of the earth, and let the wicked be no more. Bless thou the Lord, O my soul. Praise ye the Lord."

Psalm 145:20
"20 The Lord preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy."

Nahum 1:9-10
"9 What do ye imagine against the Lord? he will make an utter end: affliction shall not rise up the second time.10 For while they be folden together as thorns, and while they are drunken as drunkards, they shall be devoured as stubble fully dry."

Malachi 4:1
"4 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch."

2 Peter 2:6
"6 And turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes condemned them with an overthrow, making them an ensample unto those that after should live ungodly;"

2 Peter 2:9-12
9 The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:10 But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities.11 Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord.12 But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption;

2 Peter 3:9-10
"9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. "

Revelation 20:9
"9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."

Revelation 21:8
"8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death."

Now take a look at the words of Christ Himself of what will happen at the end in this lake of fire...

Matthew 7:13
"13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:"

Matthew 10:28
"28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

Matthew 13:40-42
"40 As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;
42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth."

We have to repent or we shall perish...

Luke 13:3 King James Version (KJV)
"3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish."

Christ gives us eternal life, the alternative is to perish...

John 3:14-16 King James Version (KJV)
"14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

The wicked will be separated from God forever and ever, it is the end of sin and sinners as they will be destroyed and perish and be no more.

 

[Hobie]

Even the Devil will be destroyed, and many Christians are shocked that even a spirit being, a angel, who was a "covering cherub" can be destroyed. The originator of sin is not eternal, and neither are the evil angels; they will both come to an end along with sin. This will take place at the moment of Satan’s attack against God and His people when Satan encompasses camp of the saints, when fire will consume the wicked along with Satan and his angels.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Along with the wicked, as sin is brought to an end and those under its bondage meet Gods judgement?

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Psalms 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

This is where sin and death will be taken out of the universe as the originator of sin and rebellion and the instigator of sin in others will cease to exist along with his followers. Fallen angels who rebelled along with Satan and left their 'first estate', will face God as judge on the great day of judgment, and will experience this vengence of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

Once Satan is wipe out of the universe, his evil angels and his human followers, the wicked, will not remain as an extension of his power or spirit of rebellion. Death will have no longer threaten and have no sting, and thus Hell/Sheol which is the grave, will be no more after the extinction of evil in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Sin will be no more as they will go into oblivion, leaving behind no trace of their existence and corruption.

Isaiah 41:11-12

11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

 

[JesusFan]

Even the Devil will be destroyed, and many Christians are shocked that even a spirit being, a angel, who was a "covering cherub" can be destroyed. The originator of sin is not eternal, and neither are the evil angels; they will both come to an end along with sin. This will take place at the moment of Satan’s attack against God and His people when Satan encompasses camp of the saints, when fire will consume the wicked along with Satan and his angels.

Revelation 20:9
And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

Along with the wicked, as sin is brought to an end and those under its bondage meet Gods judgement?

Ezekiel 28:11-19

11 Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying, 12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. 13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. 14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. 16 By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. 17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. 18 Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. 19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Psalms 37:20 20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

This is where sin and death will be taken out of the universe as the originator of sin and rebellion and the instigator of sin in others will cease to exist along with his followers. Fallen angels who rebelled along with Satan and left their 'first estate', will face God as judge on the great day of judgment, and will experience this vengence of eternal fire.

2 Peter 2:4
For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment;

Jude 1:6
And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

Jude 1:7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire

Once Satan is wipe out of the universe, his evil angels and his human followers, the wicked, will not remain as an extension of his power or spirit of rebellion. Death will have no longer threaten and have no sting, and thus Hell/Sheol which is the grave, will be no more after the extinction of evil in the Lake of Fire.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Sin will be no more as they will go into oblivion, leaving behind no trace of their existence and corruption.

Isaiah 41:11-12

11 Behold, all they that were incensed against thee shall be ashamed and confounded: they shall be as nothing; and they that strive with thee shall perish. 12 Thou shalt seek them, and shalt not find them, even them that contended with thee: they that war against thee shall be as nothing, and as a thing of nought.

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

 

[atpollard]

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

Someone at least ACKNOWLEDGES that other verses EXIST!

 

[makesends]

We have to come back to the Lord Jesus, as it made it very clear that by rejecting Him to save themselves from their sins, there would be an ternal judgement and punishment, and to fear God in all of that, not to be just burnt and cease to exist anymore

I think our notions of eternal dying vs death of death (and my notion of both/neither by way of intensity, too, for that matter) will all look foolish when we see the facts after our resurrection.

 

[Hobie]

Isaiah 66:24
24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.”

When it comes to the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked, need to read fully what scripture says. Does it mean it will never go out? Of course it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We also see it in Mark
Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If this language had never been used before the New Testament, we would have nothing to compare and one would say this is a imagery of eternal torment. But this expression was one which was well known and understood by those whom Christ was addressing. And was used by Isaiah, Ezekiel and we see also Jeremiah who frequently used the figure of the undying worm and quenchless fire. Lets look..

Jeremiah 17:27
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

But is it still burning today, no it is not. So we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Look and see what Isaiah says of that fire that cant be quenched, which they cant deliver themselves from..

Isaiah 47:14
Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. The eternal fire burns up eternally, so the wicked will die forever. Even Satan, the root of evil, is finally consumed. Ezekiel speaks of unquenchable fire in a similar manner.

Ezekiel 20:47-48
47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

This is the language from which the expression in Mark is borrowed, it is a eternal fire that no man can quench, but like Sodom and Gomorrah, it goes out once it has consumed the object of its flame.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

If we were supposed to take "eternal fire" as meaning it would be on fire burning forever, then those cities would still be burning today. So are they, of course not. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities were consumed and have never been rebuilt and will never be.

 

[makesends]

When it comes to the unquenchable fire that scripture speaks about that burns the wicked, need to read fully what scripture says. Does it mean it will never go out? Of course it doesn't. To quench means to extinguish or put out. No one will be able to put out the fire of hell. That is the strange fire of God. No one will be able to escape from it by extinguishing it.

We also see it in Mark
Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

If this language had never been used before the New Testament, we would have nothing to compare and one would say this is a imagery of eternal torment. But this expression was one which was well known and understood by those whom Christ was addressing. And was used by Isaiah, Ezekiel and we see also Jeremiah who frequently used the figure of the undying worm and quenchless fire. Lets look..

Jeremiah 17:27
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

But is it still burning today, no it is not. So we need to read and see how the Bible uses the word "quench." It does not mean fire that will never go out. Look and see what Isaiah says of that fire that cant be quenched, which they cant deliver themselves from..

Isaiah 47:14
Behold, they shall be as stubble; the fire shall burn them; they shall not deliver themselves from the power of the flame: there shall not be a coal to warm at, nor fire to sit before it.

After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out. The eternal fire burns up eternally, so the wicked will die forever. Even Satan, the root of evil, is finally consumed. Ezekiel speaks of unquenchable fire in a similar manner.

Ezekiel 20:47-48
47 And say to the forest of the south, Hear the word of the Lord; Thus saith the Lord God; Behold, I will kindle a fire in thee, and it shall devour every green tree in thee, and every dry tree: the flaming flame shall not be quenched, and all faces from the south to the north shall be burned therein.
48 And all flesh shall see that I the Lord have kindled it: it shall not be quenched.

This is the language from which the expression in Mark is borrowed, it is a eternal fire that no man can quench, but like Sodom and Gomorrah, it goes out once it has consumed the object of its flame.

Jude 1:7
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.

If we were supposed to take "eternal fire" as meaning it would be on fire burning forever, then those cities would still be burning today. So are they, of course not. This means that the results of the fire is eternal; those cities were consumed and have never been rebuilt and will never be.

This method of argument reminds me of one (on free will) in which I'm currently engaged on another site, where someone is trying to discredit the Romans 9 statements by attempting to instruct me concerning the Jew-Gentile thing (ironically enough), and the rhetoric of diatribe. He write a miles-long piece, for which an ignorant reader will be impressed, and then somehow thinks Paul's use of this method invalidates individual statements Paul makes, (that are not intended out of context), such as the conclusion, "So then, it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Which fits very nicely other references such as John 1:3, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." That the context is as he describes it does not defeat, but actually enforces the claims Reformed theology makes from Romans 9. But what was ironic is that this fellow uses exegesis (of a sort) to defeat Calvinistic notions, but abandons it to make his own self-made constructions in lieu of the Gospel of Paul.

You are doing the same here. You take the notion of unquenchable fire, and beat it to death with references—good for you! But then you jump directly from that to, "After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out." You don't show it. You only assert it. Why all the previous references, then?

You are injecting the sound of your pre-conceived notion into the meaning of the words in those verses. That the "eternal" destruction is complete and consuming (which is not temporal) cannot be compared to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah (which is temporal). You may well be right, that there is some reason to consider a cessation-by-way-of-burning up, in the destruction, but you've done nothing to show it here.

 

[Hobie]

This method of argument reminds me of one (on free will) in which I'm currently engaged on another site, where someone is trying to discredit the Romans 9 statements by attempting to instruct me concerning the Jew-Gentile thing (ironically enough), and the rhetoric of diatribe. He write a miles-long piece, for which an ignorant reader will be impressed, and then somehow thinks Paul's use of this method invalidates individual statements Paul makes, (that are not intended out of context), such as the conclusion, "So then, it does not depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy." Which fits very nicely other references such as John 1:3, "children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God." That the context is as he describes it does not defeat, but actually enforces the claims Reformed theology makes from Romans 9. But what was ironic is that this fellow uses exegesis (of a sort) to defeat Calvinistic notions, but abandons it to make his own self-made constructions in lieu of the Gospel of Paul.

You are doing the same here. You take the notion of unquenchable fire, and beat it to death with references—good for you! But then you jump directly from that to, "After it has accomplished its work of destruction, that fire will go out." You don't show it. You only assert it. Why all the previous references, then?

You are injecting the sound of your pre-conceived notion into the meaning of the words in those verses. That the "eternal" destruction is complete and consuming (which is not temporal) cannot be compared to what happened to Sodom and Gomorrah (which is temporal). You may well be right, that there is some reason to consider a cessation-by-way-of-burning up, in the destruction, but you've done nothing to show it here.

Is Sodom still burning from the eternal fire? Of course not. You have to open your eyes and see....

 

[makesends]

Is Sodom still burning from the eternal fire? Of course not. You have to open your eyes and see....

Oh boy. Not this again. You can't win debate here by claiming your opposition doesn't have God's insights you do.

See rule 2.1 concerning respect and 2.2 concerning addressing the subject, not belittling the person. See rule 5.2 for a borderline infraction of labeling your opponent.

 

[Hobie]

The same for the gates of Jerusalem...
Jeremiah 17:27
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

The fire of the Lord cannot be quenched by man, the flames will burn until there is nothing left. Paul simplifies it further with these words: "
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"2 Thessalonians 1:8

In the next verse, Paul tells us what the punishment is. "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

So the punishment is everlasting destruction from which there will be no resurrection or hope of life. and this type of fire will burn until it consumes as punishment, those experience this vengeance of eternal fire.

 

[Hobie]

Oh boy. Not this again. You can't win debate here by claiming your opposition doesn't have God's insights you do.

See rule 2.1 concerning respect and 2.2 concerning addressing the subject, not belittling the person. See rule 5.2 for a borderline infraction.

Sorry, I was a bit harsh. Please accept my apologies my brother.

 

[makesends]

The same for the gates of Jerusalem...
Jeremiah 17:27
But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.

The fire of the Lord cannot be quenched by man, the flames will burn until there is nothing left. Paul simplifies it further with these words: "
"In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:"2 Thessalonians 1:8

In the next verse, Paul tells us what the punishment is. "Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power." 2 Thessalonians 1:9.

So the punishment is everlasting destruction from which there will be no resurrection or hope of life. and this type of fire will burn until it consumes as punishment, those experience this vengeance of eternal fire.

I see a fault in the logic along these lines: To my thinking, sin is an infinite crime against God, because God is infinite. I'll not say that he cannot [in some sense temporally] end it, but to my mind it doesn't make sense to suppose that his infinite retribution runs out of fuel.

BTW, in this issue, I can argue both sides, and even, to some degree, agree to both sides.

 

[Hobie]

I see a fault in the logic along these lines: To my thinking, sin is an infinite crime against God, because God is infinite. I'll not say that he cannot [in some sense temporally] end it, but to my mind it doesn't make sense to suppose that his infinite retribution runs out of fuel.

BTW, in this issue, I can argue both sides, and even, to some degree, agree to both sides.

We dont have to argue, just read what scripture says and ask the Holy Spirit for guidance. The wicked will be separated from God in this 'eternal fire' which will consume till there is no stubble, this is their punishment. We are not going to heaven and watch friends and family burn, for eternity, no that is not a paradise for any true believer.