I abandoned my faith, maybe i have exchanged my faith

[Eternally-Grateful]

I agree no one can make themselves born again. So how is it an imperative, unless it means ONLY that it MUST happen, and not that one must do it?

it must happen yes. which makes it an imperative.. if we are nto born again, we will not see the kingdom of God

he gets into how it happens later

And I'm not saying that God doesn't give imperatives we cannot do —I'm more than convinced that the command does not imply the ability to obey— I'm just saying that the Gospel does not imply that God will only act according to our permission/request.

this is shown in vs 10 - 18.. how it happens

 

[prism]

I actually do not think we can know by what was said, but it may be inferred.

Yet Jesus said what was said.
Where is the hang-up?

 

[makesends]

it must happen yes. which makes it an imperative.. if we are nto born again, we will not see the kingdom of God

Grammatically, an imperative is equivalent to a command (or request). It is not a statement of what logically (or otherwise) must happen in order for something else to happen or to be true.

he gets into how it happens later

this is shown in vs 10 - 18.. how it happens

You have inferred it. It is not implied to be "how it happens", by which, granted by the context of this conversation, I take you to mean, 'causation of it coming to pass' —not, 'the manner in which it can be seen to come about (or to be coming about, or to have come about)'.

So you think his statements about the Spirit and the manner in which the Spirit does what it does and being "born from above", is irrelevant to the question? Compare his statement in verse 6 —"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."— with Romans 8. Why not the earlier verses to define proper use of the later verses?

 

[Arial]

if we are nto born again, we will not see the kingdom of God

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, "Look here it is!" or "There! for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you,"

That's why we must be born again in order to believe---have faith.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Yet Jesus said what was said.
Where is the hang-up?

The hang up is he cried out. He asked for it. He did not assume he would get it.

Where the tax collector assumed he did not need it pumping his chest

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Grammatically, an imperative is equivalent to a command (or request). It is not a statement of what logically (or otherwise) must happen in order for something else to happen or to be true.

Which is why I called it a command as such

You have inferred it. It is not implied to be "how it happens", by which, granted by the context of this conversation, I take you to mean, 'causation of it coming to pass' —not, 'the manner in which it can be seen to come about (or to be coming about, or to have come about)'.

It’s a statement. If you want to see the kingdom. You Must be born again

So you think his statements about the Spirit and the manner in which the Spirit does what it does and being "born from above", is irrelevant to the wuestion

lol you guys come up with alot of stuff you think I say. No I do not think it is irreverent. Nothin I ever said would suggest this?

Compare his statement in verse 6 —"Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit."— with Romans 8. Why not the earlier verses to define proper use of the later verses?

Why. They have no bearing to each other

I was born of spirit. Jesus tells us in bs 10-18 how that happens and why

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, "Look here it is!" or "There! for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you,"

That's why we must be born again in order to believe---have faith.

Nope

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen

It’s not something observed

 

[Arial]

I was born of spirit. Jesus tells us in bs 10-18 how that happens and why

Jesus tells us in vs 6-8 how one is born again.

In vs 10-18 Jesus is actually responding to Nicodemus' statement in v 2 "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

Didn't you ever wonder why Jesus' response seemed unrelated to what Nicodemus said? "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus wasn't born again and that is why he didn't know who Jesus was or what he came to do---and it wasn't just to be a teacher. ANd he wasn't just a man. He was God incarnate.

So in 10-18 Jesus is telling him what he should have known, being a ruler of the Jews, and expert in the Law and Prophets (OT) and teaching it. Jesus is telling him who he is and what he came to do and how he is going to do it. Those who believe are saved, those who don't believe remain in condemnation. And in doing this he will save the world. Here Jesus is no longer discussing being born again, other than its connection to believing, since those are the ones who see and enter his kingdom. And they believe because they have been born again.

Faith/belief by human will ( the flesh profits nothing) being the cause of the new birth is nowhere in those passages, unless one mishandles the word of God. And if they refuse to listen when they are kindly corrected from a sincere heart, that has concern for a brother.

 

[Arial]

Nope

Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen

It’s not something observed

Faith and the kingdom of God are not the same thing.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Jesus tells us in vs 6-8 how one is born again.

In vs 10-18 Jesus is actually responding to Nicodemus' statement in v 2 "Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do unless God is with him."

Didn't you ever wonder why Jesus' response seemed unrelated to what Nicodemus said? "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God." Nicodemus wasn't born again and that is why he didn't know who Jesus was or what he came to do---and it wasn't just to be a teacher. ANd he wasn't just a man. He was God incarnate.

So in 10-18 Jesus is telling him what he should have known, being a ruler of the Jews, and expert in the Law and Prophets (OT) and teaching it. Jesus is telling him who he is and what he came to do and how he is going to do it. Those who believe are saved, those who don't believe remain in condemnation. And in doing this he will save the world. Here Jesus is no longer discussing being born again, other than its connection to believing, since those are the ones who see and enter his kingdom. And they believe because they have been born again.

no 10 - 18 is Jesus response to the question. How can these things be

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Faith and the kingdom of God are not the same thing.

I never said they were once again you see things not there

Again I just shake my head

Good day. I am not responding to you anymore I will agree to disagree. You do what you want

 

[prism]

The hang up is he cried out. He asked for it. He did not assume he would get it.

Where the tax collector assumed he did not need it pumping his chest

Perhaps, and yet...

Acts 13:48 KJV
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

I guess we see these things a bit differently.

 

[Arial]

I never said they were once again you see things not there

Again I just shake my head

Good day. I am not responding to you anymore I will agree to disagree. You do what you want

Maybe you didn't mean to conflate faith and the kingdom; maybe that is not what was in your mind. However when someone post this

Luke 17:20-21 Being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, he answered them, "The kingdom of God is not coming in ways that can be observed, nor will they say, "Look here it is!" or "There! for behold, the kingdom of God is in the midst of you,"

That's why we must be born again in order to believe---have faith.

and your response is "Nope. Faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not seen. It's not something observed." what is a person supposed to make of that? The subject is which comes first----faith or the new birth, and Jesus saying no one can see the kingdom unless they are born again.

If you are not making yourself clear, that is on you. What does it mean that the kingdom is in your midst?

 

[Arial]

no 10 - 18 is Jesus response to the question. How can these things be

Nope.