I abandoned my faith, maybe i have exchanged my faith

[Carbon]

thats what the bible says

If I am not in a state of faith. according to the word I am still contdemned

he who believes is not condemned, he who does not believe is condemned already

Oh, okay, I thought that's what you meant. Personally, I do not believe man has saving faith; it must come from a regenerated child of God.
I'm not judging you, I'm just letting you know what I believe as well.

 

[makesends]

No

He worked on my dead flesh. and broke me.

until I became like the tax collector

That, like I said, is not what saved you. That is your experience of what happened, and that, from your point of view.

Also, I want to emphasize, that if God was to show you the lack of brokenness still within you, you would wish to be dead. You can't tell me you now have no rebellion left in you. You are only what God sees, and what he has in mind concerning you, and not what YOU see.

You cannot center the truth on what you experienced. Logic is a much better reference, and Scripture eclipses both.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That, like I said, is not what saved you. That is your experience of what happened, and that, from your point of view.

Also, I want to emphasize, that if God was to show you the lack of brokenness still within you, you would wish to be dead. You can't tell me you now have no rebellion left in you. You are only what God sees, and what he has in mind concerning you, and not what YOU see.

You cannot center the truth on what you experienced. Logic is a much better reference, and Scripture eclipses both.

Honestly not sure what your trying to say

 

[makesends]

Honestly not sure what your trying to say

When you felt broken, you realized a need for Christ, and you trusted him. That is faith, but that faith was already 'in play' (if you will) by the grace of God. When you gave your heart to God, it may have been your first conscious experience of it, but your heart was already his for you to even be able to do that. Romans 8 makes it plain that the natural heart is unable to submit or even to please God. It must first be changed, and then it WILL submit to, and love, him. THAT is what being regenerated does. THAT is being born from above. Made alive when we were dead (Ephesians 2). VALID Faith that is generated by God alone, inside you, toward him. You cannot produce that even redeemed —though you can grow it and stifle it, its validity depends on its source, and not on you nor your decision.

Notice through time, the many times you find yourself relinquishing control, returning to repentance and giving your heart repeatedly and maybe even continually, in submission to God, and enjoying his comfort and his delight in you and love for you. That is fellowship, which we regenerated have already in him, but in Heaven in full measure —consummated. All that is a result of Salvation, which is yours by the grace of God alone, and not by anything you did or even could do.

 

[ReverendRV]

Great. But isn't the statement to put your faith in the evidence not in Christ something that should never be stated in a gospel tract? Isn't putting our faith in Christ the very thing necessary for salvation? The evidence is a whole other discussion and something we learn as we go, and cannot be learned unless the faith in the PERSON and work of Jesus that God gives unto salvation is present. The evidence alone will never lead to salvation because the unbeliever dismisses the evidence as foolishness.

It may look to some, those who think it is their decision to believe that caused regeneration and salvation, that it was the evidence that convinced them. But if the evidence convinced them it was because they had already been regenerated. However, if they put their faith in the evidence and not the person as the OP suggested, and the faith is actually genuine, more learning is necessary, on how to rightly handle the word of God. And on who God is.

Sola Christus...

 

[Arial]

Sola Christus...

Yup.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

When you felt broken, you realized a need for Christ, and you trusted him. That is faith, but that faith was already 'in play' (if you will) by the grace of God. When you gave your heart to God, it may have been your first conscious experience of it, but your heart was already his for you to even be able to do that. Romans 8 makes it plain that the natural heart is unable to submit or even to please God. It must first be changed, and then it WILL submit to, and love, him. THAT is what being regenerated does. THAT is being born from above. Made alive when we were dead (Ephesians 2). VALID Faith that is generated by God alone, inside you, toward him. You cannot produce that even redeemed —though you can grow it and stifle it, its validity depends on its source, and not on you nor your decision.

Notice through time, the many times you find yourself relinquishing control, returning to repentance and giving your heart repeatedly and maybe even continually, in submission to God, and enjoying his comfort and his delight in you and love for you. That is fellowship, which we regenerated have already in him, but in Heaven in full measure —consummated. All that is a result of Salvation, which is yours by the grace of God alone, and not by anything you did or even could do.

Hey brother, This is a little better to understand what your trying to say. If you believe this, this is fine. But as I stated earlier the word says as long as I am in a state of unbelief. I am condemned.

If I am condemned, then by definition, I am still dead in Christ, I have not been made alive.

Again, I remember clearly 50 years ago

I remember when my father drove us into the parking lot of this church and said this will be our new home

I remember graduating to kindergarten which was held downstairs. I can remember the room we met in for Sunday school and church and I remember how the teachers would teach us the word, My Mother being one of them. I remember going by what they called the sanctuary, and every time I looked in thinking God is in there. and I remember eventually being afraid of that room, knowing if I went in that room, If God wanted to he could strike me dead. because I was a sinner and I deserved his judgment (romans 1 shows this in detail) this was a few years after I had been going, I can not remember my age, only I was a young scared kid that was learning there is more to this life and universe than just what I am seeing

I remember sitting in my room every night for weeks crying out to God because I did not want to go to hell. but I did not understand even what that means (As A kid I would draw on my walls. i can even remember vividly some of the things that were on my walls) I remember finally getting the courage after I was allowed to go into the "sanctuary" with my parents on Sunday evening service. taking the stand and walking slowly up to the pastor. When he asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted to go to heaven to be with God and wanted to know I was definitely going there. He called a deacon up. who took me in the side room, which was a library of sorts and the room where the males in the church would go to change for getting baptized. And I remember him walking me through the word step by step giving me the gospel story from my sin, my rebellion. to the means of salvation paid for by the cross. When he finished. he asked if I wanted to know more. if I have any questions. If I wanted to wait. or if I was ready to make a decision. I did not hesitate I was ready

I got on my knees and cried out. It was at THAT MOMENT that something changed. I not only felt it within me I also felt it about me. My mind changed, My heart changed, My confidence changed, and my knowledge changed (things I did not understand before. I now had an understanding, things about God made sense, the reason for the flood made sense. things i had learned over the years in Sunday school that I had questions about. suddenly came into focus and I understood.

I remember the joy I had, (I remember the passage that says remember your first love, or that time when you first came, I think of this often when I am struggling. remember what God did for you)

this change did not happen before I had faith, it did not happen before the deacon spoke to me, It did not happen before I got on my knees, it happened after, after I said AMEN. After I opened my eyes as a new creature in Christ.

so again, if it helps you to think that what you said happened, that's great. Feel free to believe this way.. Feel free to tell yourself this is true. I have no problem with that. and as @Carbon said. I will not judge you for that. I just do not agree, and wanted to share what I see and what I experienced.

God bless you

 

[His clay]

Abandoned my faith

. . . . Snip . . . .

With every ounce of creativity you can muster, try to imagine Mohammed or Joseph Smith, or any religious leader saying, “Do not believe me, unless I perform (specific, predicted) miracles from God.” Biblically, no one can. Why? Because they are all disqualified. Why? Because the only messenger God authenticated had to have lived in the first century per the Old Testament predictions! There is only one religious founder who qualified.

EddieM,

I have several thoughts to share with you, but for the time being I must be painfully brief. I'll give three positives and three negatives. First, you clearly put in some time. Perhaps you are a fast typer, but the sheer volume of material appears to be something that could not have been done in a few minutes. So, my first response is that I wish to thank you for putting in the time and energy. Second, my second impression is that you seem to be a little like me. Perhaps, writing is therapeutic for you in the sense that it allows you to get your thoughts out there; it has the tendency of solidifying the thoughts that have tumbled around in your head. Third, my opening points here are trying to be positive, and I do agree to an extent. Christianity has some very significant empirical evidence. We have authors like Josh McDowell and others who have written about the evidence. I'm thankful for their contributions.

Having briefly given you three positives, I'll now turn toward three points I found to be faulty. First, I've done quite a bit of homework on the subject of Logical Positivism. A key aspect of the philosophical position is that of the verification principle. In that philosophical stance something has to either be empirically verifiable, or it must forfeit its ability to be a meaningful statement. It had its hay-day in Vienna in the 1920s, but it was brutally destroyed. The best response I have ever read has come from Carly Henry, first volume, in God, Revelation, and Authority Vol 1. I've read quite a few pieces of literature on the subject, and the movement has truly been decimated. Unfortunately, the verifiability criterion of meaning is pretty much the backbone of your entire opening post. Without this principle, the entire opening post collapses. Second, your interpretation of John 10:37 is severely suspect. I would suggest an obedient, servant Son hermeneutic over your verifiable hermeneutic. Third, your view of faith is highly suspect. Again, your view is governed by the hermeneutic forced on scripture by your philosophical stance on verifiability. But as others have pointed out, your interpretation of faith is at odds with other passages of scripture, which have already been provided (post #3).

Again, thank you for your time in writing what you did. I see your journey, and we all have a journey in which we find ourselves. I would recommend reading the book I suggested to you from Carl Henry. It is heavy, dense, and requires some work to understand; but in the end, if you put in the time and effort, it could really help you. He has one chapter specifically devoted to Logical Positivism, so all that I'm suggesting is one chapter.

 

[EarlyActs]

(off topic alert). I wonder if he would have abandoned his evidentiary faith if he had seen what transpired in 1948 in ex-Palestine?

He might have, but what is there about 1948 that shows any Joel 2 activity of the Spirit? 1948 was the result of decades of impact by the novelist G Eliot’s DANIEL DERONDA. That said the restoration of Israel was going to be specifically not Christian, and Eliot also had many people in England reading Strauss’ destruction of the Gospel accounts of Christ. She translated them.

 

[EarlyActs]

(off topic alert). I wonder if he would have abandoned his evidentiary faith if he had seen what transpired in 1948 in ex-Palestine?

Does evidentiary mean there is something wrong with having evidence?

 

[prism]

Does evidentiary mean there is something wrong with having evidence?

I take it to mean faith that is supported by evidence.

 

[prism]

That said the restoration of Israel was going to be specifically not Christian,

It may not be 'Christian', but is biblical...
Ezekiel 38:8 KJV
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

When it comes to apologetics, whether it's evidential or presuppositional, I believe both are needed.

 

[makesends]

Hey brother, This is a little better to understand what your trying to say. If you believe this, this is fine. But as I stated earlier the word says as long as I am in a state of unbelief. I am condemned.

If I am condemned, then by definition, I am still dead in Christ, I have not been made alive.

Again, I remember clearly 50 years ago

I remember when my father drove us into the parking lot of this church and said this will be our new home

I remember graduating to kindergarten which was held downstairs. I can remember the room we met in for Sunday school and church and I remember how the teachers would teach us the word, My Mother being one of them. I remember going by what they called the sanctuary, and every time I looked in thinking God is in there. and I remember eventually being afraid of that room, knowing if I went in that room, If God wanted to he could strike me dead. because I was a sinner and I deserved his judgment (romans 1 shows this in detail) this was a few years after I had been going, I can not remember my age, only I was a young scared kid that was learning there is more to this life and universe than just what I am seeing

I remember sitting in my room every night for weeks crying out to God because I did not want to go to hell. but I did not understand even what that means (As A kid I would draw on my walls. i can even remember vividly some of the things that were on my walls) I remember finally getting the courage after I was allowed to go into the "sanctuary" with my parents on Sunday evening service. taking the stand and walking slowly up to the pastor. When he asked me what I wanted. I said I wanted to go to heaven to be with God and wanted to know I was definitely going there. He called a deacon up. who took me in the side room, which was a library of sorts and the room where the males in the church would go to change for getting baptized. And I remember him walking me through the word step by step giving me the gospel story from my sin, my rebellion. to the means of salvation paid for by the cross. When he finished. he asked if I wanted to know more. if I have any questions. If I wanted to wait. or if I was ready to make a decision. I did not hesitate I was ready

I got on my knees and cried out. It was at THAT MOMENT that something changed. I not only felt it within me I also felt it about me. My mind changed, My heart changed, My confidence changed, and my knowledge changed (things I did not understand before. I now had an understanding, things about God made sense, the reason for the flood made sense. things i had learned over the years in Sunday school that I had questions about. suddenly came into focus and I understood.

I remember the joy I had, (I remember the passage that says remember your first love, or that time when you first came, I think of this often when I am struggling. remember what God did for you)

this change did not happen before I had faith, it did not happen before the deacon spoke to me, It did not happen before I got on my knees, it happened after, after I said AMEN. After I opened my eyes as a new creature in Christ.

so again, if it helps you to think that what you said happened, that's great. Feel free to believe this way.. Feel free to tell yourself this is true. I have no problem with that. and as @Carbon said. I will not judge you for that. I just do not agree, and wanted to share what I see and what I experienced.

God bless you

I have no intention to diminish the importance of what you experienced. But I am telling you that it is what you experienced, and not by any means, all that happened. You submitted your heart to Christ—wonderful! You repented—more than great! "There is more joy in heaven over one sinner repenting....". But try to understand that decision is like the thousands that came after it; every time we turn against God we are giving up that fellowship, and every time we [truly] repent, it is restored. THAT is not the indwelling, nor is the indwelling a result of that.

I remember thinking like you do. I spent more than 40 years there. You can well believe I know the increasing joy of restored fellowship and the increasing pain and sorrow of abandoning it. I won't diminish yours. The living waters are more than either of us can describe, but they are so whether we are walking with him or not. The faith through which you are saved is not related to your will. It is valid, applied by God to your very person —"installed", even— (and that is why it is your faith), and PRODUCES the heart in you that will always need Christ. It does not come by your decision, but by God's decision.

You keep ordering mistakenly this same idea, in these words or others, which are well enough said, "If I am condemned, then by definition, I am still dead in Christ, I have not been made alive." as though it applies to those whom God regenerates by the power of the Spirit of God. Brother, if God has regenerated you, you are no longer condemned, even if you have not noticed.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I have no intention to diminish the importance of what you experienced. But I am telling you that it is what you experienced, and not by any means, all that happened. You submitted your heart to Christ—wonderful! You repented—more than great! "There is more joy in heaven over one sinner repenting....". But try to understand that decision is like the thousands that came after it; every time we turn against God we are giving up that fellowship, and every time we [truly] repent, it is restored. THAT is not the indwelling, nor is the indwelling a result of that.

I remember thinking like you do. I spent more than 40 years there. You can well believe I know the increasing joy of restored fellowship and the increasing pain and sorrow of abandoning it. I won't diminish yours. The living waters are more than either of us can describe, but they are so whether we are walking with him or not. The faith through which you are saved is not related to your will. It is valid, applied by God to your very person —"installed", even— (and that is why it is your faith), and PRODUCES the heart in you that will always need Christ. It does not come by your decision, but by God's decision.

You keep ordering mistakenly this same idea, in these words or others, which are well enough said, "If I am condemned, then by definition, I am still dead in Christ, I have not been made alive." as though it applies to those whom God regenerates by the power of the Spirit of God. Brother, if God has regenerated you, you are no longer condemned, even if you have not noticed.

Brother.

Thanks for your kind response.

I am not talking about fellowship. I had no fellowship with God before i repented and called out like the tax collector. I was dead in sin. and as I look back. I can see how dead I was. Something changed in that moment, again, it was not just fellowship.

You finished by saying I have the order incorrect.

John 3 is clear. If I am in a state of unbelief. I am in a state of condemnation.

If I am in a state of condemnation. I am still dead.

eph 2 said I was made alive having been dead. For it is by grace I have been saved. Paul later clarifies how this salvation happen. it is by Grace THROUGH FAITH.

so a decision had to be made for me to be saved. and made alive

Not only John 3, But Jesus said in John 5 that we are not made alive until after we see and believe, along with John 3, It shows our condemnation has been removed (we shall not come to judgment) and we have passed from death to life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

God regenerated me AFTER I called out to him, not before. If you think otherwise. Well that is fine, and I think we have discussed this enough. and can agree to disagree..

But I do not see it from scripture.

 

[makesends]

Brother.

Thanks for your kind response.

I am not talking about fellowship. I had no fellowship with God before i repented and called out like the tax collector. I was dead in sin. and as I look back. I can see how dead I was. Something changed in that moment, again, it was not just fellowship.

You finished by saying I have the order incorrect.

John 3 is clear. If I am in a state of unbelief. I am in a state of condemnation.

If I am in a state of condemnation. I am still dead.

eph 2 said I was made alive having been dead. For it is by grace I have been saved. Paul later clarifies how this salvation happen. it is by Grace THROUGH FAITH.

so a decision had to be made for me to be saved. and made alive

Not only John 3, But Jesus said in John 5 that we are not made alive until after we see and believe, along with John 3, It shows our condemnation has been removed (we shall not come to judgment) and we have passed from death to life.

24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.

God regenerated me AFTER I called out to him, not before. If you think otherwise. Well that is fine, and I think we have discussed this enough. and can agree to disagree..

But I do not see it from scripture.

I don't say you had fellowship with God before you repented and called out. If something changed in that moment it could be simultaneous regeneration and immediately noticing that it is so, to include repentance and calling out and fellowship. You seem locked into the idea of time placement of events—well, the human perception via experience is not authoritative. All we are saying is that the regeneration, being made alive, is not a result of you calling out and repenting.

You say "a decision had to be made for me to be saved, and made alive." I agree—God's decision*. You say that it was by grace through faith, which you still seem to think has to do with YOUR faith, as though it is produced by YOU. It is not. It is yours only because God has done it IN YOU, which therefore it is intimate to you. Human perception and experience is no hermeneutic.

Neither John 3 nor John 5 say "that we are made alive after we see and believe". I also believe our condemnation has been removed and we have passed from death to life. You may be surprised at all the passages you have historically heard, and have taken that way, to say that it is a result of your act of faith and repentance and submission, that don't actually say that! And why don't they, then?

You say you don't see it from Scripture. Are not those without Christ spiritually dead? (Eph 2:1 "Dead in their sins"). I know you believe that; you have said as much even in this last post of yours. How then, can they do a spiritual thing?

You say you don't see it from Scripture. Look again. Romans 8: Are those without Christ some of them somehow alive enough to have mind governed by the Spirit? Because the mind governed by the flesh is unwilling and unable to submit to God's law or even to please God. Does not one's faith please God?


(*) Perhaps that was an unfair argument— false equivalence. Ok, it was a little smart-mouthy. To your argument that a decision had to be made —apparently by the fact of faith being active— seems based on the temporal notion of man's responsibility to act according to that faith. But perhaps it is more perceptive than that, based on the temporal notion that "by grace through faith" implies some sort of envelope of life, within the death existence of the unrepentant, that gives them the will to invite Christ, after which, they reason, the Spirit moves into his new abode and the living waters begin to flow. Poetic, I suppose. That's classic Arminianism. And a purely human, and unbiblical, construction. Eisegesis, at best. "But, that's what happened—I'll never forget it, thank God!" is not a basis for exegesis.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I don't say you had fellowship with God before you repented and called out. If something changed in that moment it could be simultaneous regeneration and immediately noticing that it is so, to include repentance and calling out and fellowship. You seem locked into the idea of time placement of events—well, the human perception via experience is not authoritative. All we are saying is that the regeneration, being made alive, is not a result of you calling out and repenting.

But God says it is

How am I born again.

Nicodemus even asked that question. How can this be? Jesus answered him

John 3:
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12& f I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

1st point God came down from heaven

14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness,

2nd point, he takes us to the story Nicodemus would have known well.. the serpent. The serpent could have saved everyone, but it did not. why? those who believed looked and were saved, those who did not believe refused to look at died.

even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him

3rd point. Jesus would be lifted just as the bronze serpent (a type of Christ) was lifted up.

should not perish but have eternal life.

4th point. just like those who looked to the serpent lived. whoever looks to christ will live. But not this this, they will not die. and they have life (here is the new birth) this birth being forever.. ie. eternal security for the same on

16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son,

5th point. To reiterate the 3rd and 4th point. Just as moses bronze serpent was offered to all. Jesus is offered to all (the world) not just those who will be saved, but everyone

that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

6th point, a repeat of the 4th point. to drive his point home

that just like those in isreal were saved by believing Moses (in effect God) whoever believes these words of Jesus will not perish. but have new life (born again) and this life is eternal (again eternal security)

17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

again be saved is an aorist passive subjunctive word. it speaks of a period of time, where the work of God MAY save a person (it is not a person saving themselves. only the possibly they may be saved is there)
which brings us to the 7th point. Jesus was sent to the world (everyone) that they might (not will) be saved
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already,

8th poinit. reiterating once again. what must we do to be born again. Look in faith to the cross..look and you will be saved you will live,m your condemnation of death will be removed Those who do not look. just as the children of Isreal. will remain condemned)

because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


and here he drives the point home

it is not because we were not regenerated so we could have faith we are condemned. it is because we do not believe..

we did what the children of Israel who died did. We failed to look so we could be saved. even though the offer of salvation was ours for the taking. all we had to do was trust him.

You say "a decision had to be made for me to be saved, and made alive." I agree—God's decision*.

God will not make your decision for you

You say that it was by grace through faith, which you still seem to think has to do with YOUR faith,

If I did not have faith. I would not recieve. I would remain in unbelief and be lost

as though it is produced by YOU.

i never said this. once again,. DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH sorry for talking loudly. but I am sick of being falsly accused.

It is not. It is yours only because God has done it IN YOU,

No God brought me to my knees.. and I had a choice to make. we all do..

which therefore it is intimate to you. Human perception and experience is no hermeneutic.

this makes no sense.

Neither John 3 nor John 5 say "that we are made alive after we see and believe".

Both did

John 3 said it is after we look in faith we are given life

John 5 says it is after we see and believe we pass from death to life.

I also believe our condemnation has been removed and we have passed from death to life.

because you believed. or while you were still in unbelief?

look what jesus said..

You may be surprised at all the passages you have historically heard, and have taken that way, to say that it is a result of your act of faith and repentance and submission, that don't actually say that! And why don't they, then?

Yet they do.

You say you don't see it from Scripture. Are not those without Christ spiritually dead? (Eph 2:1 "Dead in their sins"). I know you believe that; you have said as much even in this last post of yours. How then, can they do a spiritual thing?

yes. By grace they have been saved. or made alive.

iuts all of grace, But god does not force us. he asks us to reciev in in faith (john 1 to recieve , John 3 to believe to look, john 4 to ask, john 5. to hear and believe, john 6. To work for food which endures. To come to himl, to believe, too eat the bread from heaven, to gnaw and chew on the flesh and blood (the words of live) even peter understood. we see and believe yuo have the words of eternal life.

,

You say you don't see it from Scripture. Look again. Romans 8: Are those without Christ some of them somehow alive enough to have mind governed by the Spirit? Because the mind governed by the flesh is unwilling and unable to submit to God's law or even to please God. Does not one's faith please God?

romans 8 is the final act of the romans road..

If the spirit does not act on the dead. they will never believe. you see it. but do you really

(*) Perhaps that was an unfair argument— false equivalence. Ok, it was a little smart-mouthy. To your argument that a decision had to be made —apparently by the fact of faith being active— seems based on the temporal notion of man's responsibility to act according to that faith. But perhaps it is more perceptive than that, based on the temporal notion that "by grace through faith" implies some sort of envelope of life, within the death existence of the unrepentant, that gives them the will to invite Christ, after which, they reason, the Spirit moves into his new abode and the living waters begin to flow. Poetic, I suppose. That's classic Arminianism. And a purely human, and unbiblical, construction. Eisegesis, at best. "But, that's what happened—I'll never forget it, thank God!" is not a basis for exegesis.

again. its simple

John 1: 12. But AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED HIM, to THEM he gave the right to become children, even TO THEM WHO BELIEVE (no works)

John 3, FOR God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER BELIEVES (trusts) in him will NEVER PERISH, and LIVE FOREVER (eternal life) for the son was not sent to judge, but that the world might be saved, he who BELIEVES is NOT CONDEMNED, he who does not believe is condemned already (no works)

John 4: 13 Jesus answered and said to her, “Whoever drinks of this water will thirst again, 14 but whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will NEVER THIRST. But the water that I shall give him will become in him a fountain of water springing up into EVERLASTING LIFE” (no works)

John 5: 24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he whoever HEARS MY WORD and BELIEVES IN HIM WHO SENT ME who sent Me HAS ETERNAL LIFE and SHALL NOT COME INTO JUDGMENT but HAS PASSED FROM DEATH TO LIFE (No works)

John 6: 35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. HE WHO COMES TO ME shall NEVER HUNGER and he who BELIEVES IN ME shall NEVER THIRST (NO WORKS)

John 6: 37: and THE ONE WHO COMES TO ME I WILL BY NO MEANS CAST OUT 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, thatof all He has given Me I SHAL LOSE NOTHING, but SHOULD RAISE IT UP ON THE LAST DAY. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that EVERYONE WHO SEES AND BELIEVES IN HIM MAY HAVE EVERLASTING LIFE AND I WILL (NOT MIGHT) RAISE HIM ON THE LAST DAY (NO WORKS)

John 6: 47 Most assuredly, I say to you, HE WHO BELIEVES IN ME HAS EVERLASTING LIFE. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that THAT ONE MAY EAT OF IT AND NOT DIE 51 am the living bread which came down from heaven. IF ANYONE EATS THIS BREAD HE WILL LIVE FOREVER (NO WORKS)

John 6: 63 It is the SPIRIT WHO GIVES LIFE ; the flesh profits nothing. THE WORDS THAT I SPEAK to you ARE SPIRIT AND THEY ARE LIFE (SIGNIFYING THE BREAD FROM HEAVEN, THE FLESH AND BOOD ARE THE WORDS JESUS SPOKE. NOT THE PHYSICAL FOOD OR WORKS,)

EPH 1: 13 In Him YOU ALSO TRUSTED , after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also ,HAVING BELIEVED YOU WERE SEALED WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT OF PROMISE 14 who IS THE GAURANTEE OF OUR INHERITANCE until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

THE INHERITANCE HE SAID WE ALREADY HAD IN THE 1ST 12 VERSES. (AGAIN, NO WORKS)

eph 2: 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses,MADE US ALIVE together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and RAISED US UP TOGETHER , and MADE US SIT TOGETHER IN HEAVENLY PLACES 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For BY GRACE YOU HAVE BEEN SAVED (A COMPLETED ACTION) THROUGH FAITH , (AS MANY AS HAVE RECIEVED) and that NOT OF YOURSELVES ; it IS THE GIFT OF GOD, 9 NOT OF WORKS LEST ANYONE SHOULD BOAST (NO WORKS)

rom 4: 3 For what does the Scripture say? “ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD AND HE ACOUNTED IT TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS.” 4 Now TO HIM WHO WORKS, THE WAGES ARE NOT COUNTED AS GRACE BUT DEBT (Works cancels out grace. and makes it a wage) 5 But TO HIM WHO DOES NOT WORK but BELIEVES ON HIM WHO JUSTIFIES THE UNGOLDY , his HIS FAITH IS ACCOUNTED FOR RIGHTEOUSNESS (AGAIN NO WORKS. PERIOD)

rom 4: 16 Therefore IT IF OF FAITH THAT IT MAY BE ACCORDING TO GRACE , so that THE PROMISE MAY BE SURE TO ALL THE SEED not only to those who are of the law, but also TO THOSE WHO ARE OF THE FAITH OF ABRAHAM , who is the father of us all (AGAIN, NO WORKS, IT IS OF GRACE THROUGH FAITH)

Rom 4: 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone that it was imputed to him, 24 but ALSO FOR US, IT SHALL BE IMPUTED TO US WHO BELIEVE IN HIM WHO RAISED UP JESUS OUR LORD FROM THE DEAD , 25 who was delivered up because of our offenses, and was RAISED BECAUSE OF OUR JUSTIFICATION (AGAIN NO WORKS)

Rom 11: 6 And IF BY GRACE, THAN IT IS NO LONGER OF WORKS, ; otherwise GRACE IS NO LONGER GRACE.But IF IT IS OF WORKS, THEN IT IS NO LONGER OF GRACE. OTHERWISE WORK IS NO LONGER WORK (AS i HAVE SAID NUMEROUS TIME, GRACE + WORKS = WORKS.. GRACE AND WORKS CAN NOT MIX IN THE AREA OF SALVATION. ITS LIKE MIXING OIL AND WATER)

2 Tim 1: 9 who HAS SAVED US (A COMPLETED ACTION) and called us with a holy calling, NOT ACCORDING TO OUR WORKS , but ACCORDING TO HIS OWN PURPOSE AND GRACE which was GIVEN TO US in Christ Jesus BEFORE TIME BEGAN (AGAIN, NO WORKS. BUT GRACE)

Titus 3: 4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, 5 NOT BY WORKS OF RIGHTEOUSNESS (GOOD DEEDS) WHICH WE HAVE DONE , but ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY HE SAVED USthrough the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, 6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, 7 that HAVING BEEN JUSTIFIED BY HIS GRACE we should become HEIRS ACCORDING TO THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE
(AGAIN, NO QUESTION HERE. PAUL LEAVES NO QUESTION. NO GOOD DEED CAN SAVE US,. WE ARE SAVED BY GODS MERCY, AND GIVEN THE HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE. WHICH IS PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

Titus 1: 2 in HOPE OF ETERNAL LIFE which GOD WHO CAN NOT LIE PROMISED BEFORE TIME BEGAN

I use these verses to appose a legalistic gospel of works. But I think it fits ok here also (yes it is a cut and paste. i have used it alot lately. as usual they riun from these passages and will not even look into them, so they may not all apply here. if not forgove me )


read all these passages you see the same message

faith is not a work.. to say me trusting God and receiving him is me saving myself goes against the word of God

we are saved by Grace through faith. God does not force it on ue. He offeres it to us. like he offered it to the childrne in the wilderness

Those who trusted God lived

those who did not died

God di not force those who looked to live, He did not keep those who died from having the ability to believe.

 

[EarlyActs]

I take it to mean faith that is supported by evidence.

Is that OK?

 

[EarlyActs]

It may not be 'Christian', but is biblical...
Ezekiel 38:8 KJV
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

When it comes to apologetics, whether it's evidential or presuppositional, I believe both are needed.

I don't know of any secular restoration in the OT. It always coincides with the outpouring of the Spirit. Thus the event of Acts 2 is what the OT prophets were looking for, and the knowledge of the Lord would cover the world. It was meant to happen after the captivity in Babylon, etc.

 

[prism]

Is that OK?

Could be, see #58

 

[prism]

I don't know of any secular restoration in the OT.

I don't either. Did I mention secular restoration at any time?