Hebrews 6

[Eternally-Grateful]

Are you comparing one to another along the same standards, or are you asking what standard anyone's obedience is judged against.

I Am asking a question about the point of obedience being required.

How good is good enough I think is a better way to ask it?

In BOTH uses of the term, "determining factor", GOD determines who is obeying and who is not. He both ordains, 1) from the foundation of the world, absolutely all things whatsoever come to pass, and. 2) judges all things, including our obedience and disobedience, but he does so by looking at the heart, where not only sins, but sinfulness is seen. He does not judge only according to a set of external standards written.

yes. but if salvation is depending on it. How can we know we are saved if obedience is required?

if we say those who do not obey etc etc.

how do we know those people have never obeyed?

 

[makesends]

I Am asking a question about the point of obedience being required.

How good is good enough I think is a better way to ask it?

There is no 'good enough'. There is God's mercy. While we must search our own hearts and acknowledge our unworthiness, and even find joy in any obedience, that joy is by gratefulness to God, and we are not our own judges in the end, nor do we know what God is making of us. Our own "righteousness is filthy rags".

yes. but if salvation is depending on it. How can we know we are saved if obedience is required?

By His Spirit witnessing to our spirits that we are the Children of God. And by finding joy in the relief of needing only his mercy. And by finding joy in his magnificent work, joy in HIS joy, watching him do what he is doing. It is possible to forget about the question of one's own salvation, and become 'lost' IN CHRIST. It is possible to develop a habit of obedience without even knowing it is happening.

Through all that, it is still a prevailing principle, that disobedience brings doubt, just as it should. But knowing God, and watching him, makes sin all the more visible as the horror that it is, and disobedience more painful, and a huge sorrow.

Yet even there, God's grace has always upheld his own and has not lost even one.

if we say those who do not obey etc etc.

how do we know those people have never obeyed?

Because if one is lost, even their apparent obedience, is full of corruption and enmity to God. Their "obedience" is not submission, but only at best compliance with what little they understand. They use their concepts of right and wrong, and their consciences, for their standard, and by their own corrupt standard they will be judged, unless Christ stands in their place.

Obedience is not about 'the rules', unless, maybe, it can be said that "...love the Lord your God with all your being" and "...love your neighbor as yourself" can be said to be 'the rules'. But even in that, who among us can say that we are obedient? Nope, we live by his mercy and grace.

 

[Eleanor]

what is the determining factor to decide who is obeying and who is not?

NT teaching. . .God's law (Ro 13:8-10).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is no 'good enough'. There is God's mercy. While we must search our own hearts and acknowledge our unworthiness, and even find joy in any obedience, that joy is by gratefulness to God, and we are not our own judges in the end, nor do we know what God is making of us. Our own "righteousness is filthy rags".

can we know we have eternal life?

By His Spirit witnessing to our spirits that we are the Children of God. And by finding joy in the relief of needing only his mercy. And by finding joy in his magnificent work, joy in HIS joy, watching him do what he is doing. It is possible to forget about the question of one's own salvation, and become 'lost' IN CHRIST. It is possible to develop a habit of obedience without even knowing it is happening.

Through all that, it is still a prevailing principle, that disobedience brings doubt, just as it should. But knowing God, and watching him, makes sin all the more visible as the horror that it is, and disobedience more painful, and a huge sorrow.

Yet even there, God's grace has always upheld his own and has not lost even one.

Because if one is lost, even their apparent obedience, is full of corruption and enmity to God. Their "obedience" is not submission, but only at best compliance with what little they understand. They use their concepts of right and wrong, and their consciences, for their standard, and by their own corrupt standard they will be judged, unless Christ stands in their place.

Obedience is not about 'the rules', unless, maybe, it can be said that "...love the Lord your God with all your being" and "...love your neighbor as yourself" can be said to be 'the rules'. But even in that, who among us can say that we are obedient? Nope, we live by his mercy and grace.

Yes. It is the hope of eternal life which keeps us focused.. on not only God but all others.. and less on self.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

NT teaching. . .God's law (Ro 13:8-10).

do we love perfectly?

 

[makesends]

can we know we have eternal life?

Of course we can. But it is not because of self, nor anything we have decided, but because of God. As I said, the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirit. My personal opinion is that that is intrinsic to the essence of salvific faith, which is done by the Spirit of God within us.

Yes. It is the hope of eternal life which keeps us focused.. on not only God but all others.. and less on self.

Agreed. This life is about God, specifically about Christ, and not about us.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Of course we can. But it is not because of self, nor anything we have decided, but because of God. As I said, the Spirit of God witnesses to our spirit. My personal opinion is that that is intrinsic to the essence of salvific faith, which is done by the Spirit of God within us.

I was thinking of what John said.

1 John 5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

Agreed. This life is about God, specifically about Christ, and not about us.

yes. amen and amen

his promise. not how good we are

 

[makesends]

I was thinking of what John said.

1 John 5: 10 He who believes in the Son of God has the witness in himself; he who does not believe God has made Him a liar, because he has not believed the testimony that God has given of His Son. 11 And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. 12 He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life. 13 These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

I love that passage. The conjunction translated "that", in "that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe [in his name]" denotes purpose, as in, "in order that (you may know)". Also, the greek subjunctive translated "may", while a good translation, is only in the subjunctive because of its relation to the "in order that". It does not imply that it 'may or may not' happen, but affirms purpose, as in, "in order that you will know". The implication is either, 1) that those who believe will know, or, at least, 2) that John is writing what he writes so that those who believe will know.

yes. amen and amen

his promise. not how good we are

Amen that!

 

[Eleanor]

do we love perfectly?

What do you think?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I love that passage. The conjunction translated "that", in "that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may believe [in his name]" denotes purpose, as in, "in order that (you may know)". Also, the greek subjunctive translated "may", while a good translation, is only in the subjunctive because of its relation to the "in order that". It does not imply that it 'may or may not' happen, but affirms purpose, as in, "in order that you will know". The implication is either, 1) that those who believe will know, or, at least, 2) that John is writing what he writes so that those who believe will know.

Amen that!

its why we can suffer. and keep messing up and not fear.. as Paul said, the momentary light affliction

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

What do you think?

no.

so we break the law

which means we continue to sin and fall short of Gods glory.

so again. How good is good enough?

 

[Eleanor]

no.

so we break the law

which means we continue to sin and fall short of Gods glory.

so again. How good is good enough?

There is no "good enough."

We are saved by God through faith, not through being "good enough."

If willfully and deliberately choosing to sin is our life style, we are not saved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

There is no "good enough."

We are saved by God through faith, not through being "good enough."

If willfully and deliberately choosing to sin is our life style, we not saved.

well John says a child of God can not do this.

which is why I begged the question..

 

[Eleanor]

well John says a child of God can not do this.

which is why I begged the question..

Precisely. . .which is why if one is doing this, one is not a child of God.

 

[makesends]

its why we can suffer. and keep messing up and not fear.. as Paul said, the momentary light affliction

ha! "light affliction"?? Sin is not 'messing up'. It is disastrous, but God holds things together.

 

[makesends]

no.

so we break the law

which means we continue to sin and fall short of Gods glory.

so again. How good is good enough?

Why the continuing demand for a definition for 'good enough'? I'm continuing to insist, there is no good enough, but Christ.

 

[makesends]

no.

so we break the law

which means we continue to sin and fall short of Gods glory.

so again. How good is good enough?

Do you need some point at which to know obedience vs disobedience?

Makes me think of a time a whole Sunday School hour in a class I was in, was spent discussing the right and wrong about helping someone out on the street who asked for money. Why do we have to have a defining point —in order to judge ourselves right according to God's judgement?

But it isn't even a question of knowing a dividing line. It seems more a question of, "how much can I get away with?"! That should never be the way for a believer to think.

 

[Eleanor]

@makesends

The "you" there is generic.

 

[makesends]

yes. but if salvation is depending on it. How can we know we are saved if obedience is required?

Salvation is not depending on it. Salvation is identified or signified by it.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Precisely. . .which is why if one is doing this, one is not a child of God.

It goes both ways.

You can;t accuse of Child of God of doing this likes get accused so often. Saying grace is a license to sin. When it is impossible