Hebrews 6

[mailmandan]

"Tasting" and "eating" are not the same thing.

Good point. Inherent in the idea of tasting is the fact that one might or might not decide to accept what is tasted. For example, in Matthew 27:34, we see that those crucifying Jesus "offered him wine to drink, mingled with gall; but when he tasted it, he would not drink it." We do not merely taste, but drink into one Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:13)

 

[mailmandan]

Hebrews 6 clearly warns that one can lose their salvation. In that text, it was a warning to the newly converted Jews which can also apply likewise to us today if we turn from or denounce Christ after being converted.

Also look at Acts 8:9-24, and Simon the sorcerer who was converted but because he wanted to purchase the power of God that he saw demonstrated by the apostles through the laying on of their hands, he was told to repent or perish.

Show us the words, "lose or lost salvation" in Hebrews 6. Verse 9 sums it up for me. The writer is speaking to those truly saved (refers to them as BELOVED). He says that even though he speaks like this concerning THOSE types of people, He is convinced of better things concerning YOU. Things that ACCOMPANY SALVATION.

In regard to Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8, he is said to have “believed and was baptized” at the preaching of Philip (Acts 8:13) but later, when Simon offers the apostles money to have their ability to impart the Holy Spirit (verses 18–19), he is rebuked by Peter. Peter answered: "May your money perish with you, because you thought you could buy the gift of God with money! You have no part or share in this ministry, because your heart is not right before God. 22 Repent therefore of this your wickedness and pray God if perhaps the thought of your heart may be forgiven you. 23 For I see that you are poisoned by bitterness and bound by iniquity. (verses 20-24)

You called that saved? Even though we read that Simon "believed," the remainder of the verse hints at the true object of his belief: "the miracles and signs which were done." No saving belief in Christ.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I think people get confused about heb 6 because the way it is worded.

It stops. for it is impossible.. the first question we must answer is what is impossible.

if we read the text. what is impossible is to renew a person to repentance.

the second question we must answer is why? Why is it impossible,

The answer, "they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

then we must look at this ans ask ourselves why. If a person lost his salvation (fell away) why would it be impossible for them to be saved again, and how does this crucify Christ again, putting him to open shame.

Alot of people want to focus on a few outside facts. was the person saved or not. does this mean they have fell away or it is even possible. and does this not mean we can lose salvation.

If we answer the 2 questions I have posed. i think we will see the answer

 

[Arial]

then we must look at this ans ask ourselves why. If a person lost his salvation (fell away) why would it be impossible for them to be saved again, and how does this crucify Christ again, putting him to open shame.

If they fell away, lost their salvation, they would have openly rejected Christ, and his work. They would not have simply stopped believing but would have said that they do believe it , and had actually experienced it, that is, the new birth and transformation had actually occurred, and they don't want it. If they had truly believed, they would have been brought into him, been crucified with him, raised to life with him, positionally, right now, and at his return, actually. They would have been justified. If they were to ask to be restored to him again, it would be equal to him being crucified again, as they already held that position in him before.

So we see, that not only would it be impossible for them to be restored in such a situation, it is impossible for it to happen in the first place. Only God can undo what he has done. If he predestines the elect to come to Christ, they will come, and no one and nothing can take them out of his hand.

So verses 9-12 put a big fat "if" in front of the "confusing" verses of 6, followed by hypotheticals as illustration. And we see why Paul wrote it in the way he did. It was encouragement to stand strong in the faith, bearing its fruit, in the midst of persecution and false teachings concerning godliness. To not lose heart in doing good. The "full assurance" is not pertaining to whether we can lose our salvation, but to the proof of our salvation to us and those around us, by patient obedience to God while we wait for the promise of our inheritance.

 

[makesends]

I think people get confused about heb 6 because the way it is worded.

It stops. for it is impossible.. the first question we must answer is what is impossible.

if we read the text. what is impossible is to renew a person to repentance.

the second question we must answer is why? Why is it impossible,

The answer, "they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

then we must look at this ans ask ourselves why. If a person lost his salvation (fell away) why would it be impossible for them to be saved again, and how does this crucify Christ again, putting him to open shame.

Alot of people want to focus on a few outside facts. was the person saved or not. does this mean they have fell away or it is even possible. and does this not mean we can lose salvation.

If we answer the 2 questions I have posed. i think we will see the answer

Possible view #1, (and my favorite, which does not admit to the notion that the saved can become lost)
—There are quite a few places where different languages can 'legally' be translated two ways. In some languages, people simply talk a certain way, but when they read it, it somehow gets a different meaning. If I was to ask a believer if God can sin, they might scoff, and say, "What? That's impossible!", by which they might mean, "That is logically self-contradictory." Hebrews 6:18 says, "...it is impossible for God to lie...", in the same way, I think—it is not dealing with a question of God's power or ability. One can extrapolate it to be saying that God lying is a bogus concept—a self-contradictory notion.

So it is also with verse 4, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit..." and what follows is more of the same statement. It is saying that for someone regenerated to fall away is impossible, 'and here's why it is impossible'. For someone once born again to fall away is a self-contradictory notion. —my opinion, of course.


Possible view #2, (in contrast with #1, but still not admitting to the notion that the saved can become lost)
—There is, however, a sense of sharing in the benefits of employing the mechanics of "The Way", and I understand that there are OSAS theologians who read it that way; and, I must admit, there is a LOT of empirical evidence (ok, it is Anecdotal Evidence) that a person can "experience" even a sense of belonging to God, and a feeling that the Spirit of God has witnessed to their spirit that they are 'sons of God', and have fooled themselves. There are plenty passages employing severe language concerning the conduct of the born-again, to which not many of us have to gall to say we live up to it. Any of us can have lied to ourselves. These theologians would say that this is the person who is ultimately and surely condemned, because they have put Christ to shame, etc.

And Hebrews 10:26-31 would seem to affirm that view.

 

[Eleanor]

I think people get confused about heb 6 because the way it is worded.

It stops. for it is impossible.. the first question we must answer is what is impossible.

if we read the text. what is impossible is to renew a person to repentance.

the second question we must answer is why? Why is it impossible,

The answer, "they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame."

then we must look at this ans ask ourselves why. If a person lost his salvation (fell away)

If he rejected his faith, it was counterfeit, not true saving faith.
You can't renew counterfeit faith.

why would it be impossible for them to be saved again, and how does this crucify Christ again, putting him to open shame.

Alot of people want to focus on a few outside facts. was the person saved or not. does this mean they have fell away or it is even possible. and does this not mean we can lose salvation.

If we answer the 2 questions I have posed. i think we will see the answer

It is impossible because in rejecting the faith, they are rejecting the blood of Christ, the rejecting of which bars their renewal.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If they fell away, lost their salvation, they would have openly rejected Christ, and his work. They would not have simply stopped believing but would have said that they do believe it , and had actually experienced it, that is, the new birth and transformation had actually occurred, and they don't want it. If they had truly believed, they would have been brought into him, been crucified with him, raised to life with him, positionally, right now, and at his return, actually. They would have been justified. If they were to ask to be restored to him again, it would be equal to him being crucified again, as they already held that position in him before.

So we see, that not only would it be impossible for them to be restored in such a situation, it is impossible for it to happen in the first place. Only God can undo what he has done. If he predestines the elect to come to Christ, they will come, and no one and nothing can take them out of his hand.

So verses 9-12 put a big fat "if" in front of the "confusing" verses of 6, followed by hypotheticals as illustration. And we see why Paul wrote it in the way he did. It was encouragement to stand strong in the faith, bearing its fruit, in the midst of persecution and false teachings concerning godliness. To not lose heart in doing good. The "full assurance" is not pertaining to whether we can lose our salvation, but to the proof of our salvation to us and those around us, by patient obedience to God while we wait for the promise of our inheritance.

Interesting.

I always saw it as the author was talking to a people who believed in the law as a means of eternal destiny.

The law says we can fall away. Just give the offering of atonement and we are restored to salvation. or on the day of atonement, the sacrifices would give everyone a clean slate.

Grace says we can not fall away. and if we could we could never be resaved.

To claim salvation could be lost puts Christ to open shame, it says his sacrifice was not enough

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Possible view #1, (and my favorite, which does not admit to the notion that the saved can become lost)
—There are quite a few places where different languages can 'legally' be translated two ways. In some languages, people simply talk a certain way, but when they read it, it somehow gets a different meaning. If I was to ask a believer if God can sin, they might scoff, and say, "What? That's impossible!", by which they might mean, "That is logically self-contradictory." Hebrews 6:18 says, "...it is impossible for God to lie...", in the same way, I think—it is not dealing with a question of God's power or ability. One can extrapolate it to be saying that God lying is a bogus concept—a self-contradictory notion.

So it is also with verse 4, "It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit..." and what follows is more of the same statement. It is saying that for someone regenerated to fall away is impossible, 'and here's why it is impossible'. For someone once born again to fall away is a self-contradictory notion. —my opinion, of course.


Possible view #2, (in contrast with #1, but still not admitting to the notion that the saved can become lost)
—There is, however, a sense of sharing in the benefits of employing the mechanics of "The Way", and I understand that there are OSAS theologians who read it that way; and, I must admit, there is a LOT of empirical evidence (ok, it is Anecdotal Evidence) that a person can "experience" even a sense of belonging to God, and a feeling that the Spirit of God has witnessed to their spirit that they are 'sons of God', and have fooled themselves. There are plenty passages employing severe language concerning the conduct of the born-again, to which not many of us have to gall to say we live up to it. Any of us can have lied to ourselves. These theologians would say that this is the person who is ultimately and surely condemned, because they have put Christ to shame, etc.

And Hebrews 10:26-31 would seem to affirm that view.

I used to follow something close to the second (they were never saved to begin with)

I know. looking at context. believe it is more like the first.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

If he rejected his faith, it was counterfeit, not true saving faith.
You can't renew counterfeit faith.

It is impossible because in rejecting the faith, they are rejecting the blood of Christ, the rejecting of which bars their renewal.

Yes I have heard this too..

I think the context is the law though. that's what the whole book is about pretty much.

the law says you can lose salvation (fall away). and it can be renewed (sacrifice)

His argument is against this I believe..

 

[Arial]

I always saw it as the author was talking to a people who believed in the law as a means of eternal destiny.

He was writing to believers. It is likely that the majority of the recipients were Jewish and/or Jewish converts before they came to Christ. They may have once believed the Mosaic Law was the way, but they had come to believe that Christ was the way. (Although they may have been having difficulty, because of confusion or persecution, letting go of some of the old ways.) But to me the letter was being written to Christians who had failed to grow beyond the elementary principles and it was causing them to be unstable in standing firm in the faith.

The law says we can fall away. Just give the offering of atonement and we are restored to salvation. or on the day of atonement, the sacrifices would give everyone a clean slate.

The law says we can fall away from covenant obedience, to the old covenant law. It never saved anyone unto eternal life---as the writer of Hebrews points out. I see it more as a stay of execution, or a stay of condemnation for law violations. And that for the purpose of the Messiah's coming and all that needed to be done before he came. Were those sins truly covered and forgiven from year to year? My answer would be yes, but it did not change the heart or conscience of anyone. Only the person and work of Christ can do that.

Grace says we can not fall away. and if we could we could never be resaved.

To claim salvation could be lost puts Christ to open shame, it says his sacrifice was not enough

I agree with this, and I don't know if you posted it because you misunderstood what I was saying or not. In case that is the case, this is what I said.

So we see, that not only would it be impossible for them to be restored in such a situation, it is impossible for it to happen in the first place. Only God can undo what he has done. If he predestines the elect to come to Christ, they will come, and no one and nothing can take them out of his hand.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

He was writing to believers.

He was writing to jews.. that's why it is called the letter or epistle to the hebrews

It is likely that the majority of the recipients were Jewish and/or Jewish converts before they came to Christ. They may have once believed the Mosaic Law was the way, but they had come to believe that Christ was the way. (Although they may have been having difficulty, because of confusion or persecution, letting go of some of the old ways.) But to me the letter was being written to Christians who had failed to grow beyond the elementary principles and it was causing them to be unstable in standing firm in the faith.

but if you read the book. Many of them did not. The book is full of rebuke of those trying to return to the law

The law says we can fall away from covenant obedience, to the old covenant law. It never saved anyone unto eternal life---as the writer of Hebrews points out. I see it more as a stay of execution, or a stay of condemnation for law violations. And that for the purpose of the Messiah's coming and all that needed to be done before he came. Were those sins truly covered and forgiven from year to year? My answer would be yes, but it did not change the heart or conscience of anyone. Only the person and work of Christ can do that.

But many jews thought it did save them, remember thats why they crucified Christ.

I agree with this, and I don't know if you posted it because you misunderstood what I was saying or not. In case that is the case, this is what I said.

I knew you did. You just gave a different perspective. we are in agreement to the outcome. just differ a bit on what it is saying. but we are united!

 

[Arial]

but if you read the book. Many of them did not. The book is full of rebuke of those trying to return to the law

If you read what you quoted, you will see that I said that very thing.

But many jews thought it did save them, remember thats why they crucified Christ.

What many Jews thought really isn't the issue. They were wrong about a lot of things.

I knew you did. You just gave a different perspective. we are in agreement to the outcome. just differ a bit on what it is saying. but we are united!

 

[Eleanor]

Yes I have heard this too..

I think the context is the law though. that's what the whole book is about pretty much.

The book is about the superiority of Christ over the angels, Moses and the priests, and
the superiority of Christ's priesthood and sacrifice over that of the Aaronic priesthood's.
It's about the superiority of the NT over the OT, of grace over law.

the law says you can lose salvation (fall away). and it can be renewed (sacrifice)
His argument is against this I believe..

However, the law did not save, and was not given for salvation, for salvation has always been by faith (Ge 15:6, Eph 2:8-9).
The law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

The book is about the superiority of Christ over the angels, Moses and the priests, and
the superiority of Christ's priesthood and sacrifice over that of the Aaronic priesthood's.

ie. the new covenant superiority over the old (the law)

However, the law did not save, and was not given for salvation, the law was given to reveal sin (Ro 3:20).

Yes.. Sadly many jews did not think this.. thats why they always even today want to add works of the law

 

[makesends]

ie. the new covenant superiority over the old (the law)

Yes.. Sadly many jews did not think this.. thats why they always even today want to add works of the law

Not just the Jews, but the Gentile Believers (even today) preach a partial grace, which is not grace.

 

[Hazelelponi]

...

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not just the Jews, but the Gentile Believers (even today) preach a partial grace, which is not grace.

it always amazes me as to how many people will say they must do something to maintain their salvation. then deny they are trying to earn their salvation.

 

[Eleanor]

it always amazes me as to how many people will say they must do something to maintain their salvation. then deny they are trying to earn their salvation.

We don't do anything to maintain our salvation, but
if there is no obedience in the Holy Spirit, which is the result of salvation, we are not saved.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

We don't do anything to maintain our salvation, but
if there is no obedience in the Holy Spirit, which is the result of salvation, we are not saved.

what is the determining factor to decide who is obeying and who is not?

 

[makesends]

what is the determining factor to decide who is obeying and who is not?

Are you comparing one to another along the same standards, or are you asking what standard anyone's obedience is judged against.

In BOTH uses of the term, "determining factor", GOD determines who is obeying and who is not. He both ordains, 1) from the foundation of the world, absolutely all things whatsoever come to pass, and. 2) judges all things, including our obedience and disobedience, but he does so by looking at the heart, where not only sins, but sinfulness is seen. He does not judge only according to a set of external standards written.