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God won't violate man's will?

If God cannot violate man’s will, why do Arminian's pray for God to save them? Are Arminians confused?

Shouldn't you rather beg the person to believe?
I also have to say, I don't think I ever heard and Arminian pray as an Arminian. Thankfully.
 
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Believe me, if God violated my will and made me a believer in God the Son Jesus Christ.....I'm not complaining.
The Arminian position against Calvinists is that they think God brings people into heaven kicking and screaming against their wills. What God commands us to do, and us trusting him totally is the difference. Not wanting to do something because we think we know better is not God violating our wills. The old man is always at war with the new man. Trusting and having trust and faith God who is the one who is always faithful, when we are not.​
 
The Arminian position against Calvinists is that they think God brings people into heaven kicking and screaming against their wills.​

Can you present a quote that shows this to be a true statement by you?
What God commands us to do, and us trusting him totally is the difference. Not wanting to do something because we think we know better is not God violating our wills. The old man is always at war with the new man. Trusting and having trust and faith God who is the one who is always faithful, when we are not.​
The Father has to grant you the ability to come to Christ Jesus.
 
Can you present a quote that shows this to be a true statement by you?
Yes, look up the classical argument of the Arminian about God violating our wills. See, I use to be a Classical Arminian. They teach that a sinner needs Prevenient Grace first, but this Prevenient Grace is not effectual in saving anyone. I challenge this teaching when I was a Arminian. They couldn't give a adequate answer. If God's Prevenient Grace doesn't save anyone, then what does? This is the crux or core question to ask. It comes down to the activity of man that ultimately saves him, not God's Grace. The Arminians claim that this Prevenient Grace given by God places the sinner in a position between Life and Death to choose, but note the sinner is not fully regenerated by the Spirit. They are partially regenerated to understand what's at stake. But if one understands by the illumination of the Spirit, why wouldn't everyone want to chose to be saved? They have to try and explain that God will not violate man's will. To do so, will violate man's will and God will have to drag them into heaven kicking and screaming against their wills. But the odd thing CrowCross is that Classical Arminianism teaches Total Depravity in that without God's regenerating them no one would be saved.

The Reformed doctrine of irresistible Grace or better yet effectual Grace same concept. Is the problem people have with Irresistible Grace which is they think people have no choice in the matter. This is the argument not only Arminians make but others do as well. That God drags people into heaven kicking and screaming against their wills. So then comes the obvious question to be asked. If both Arminians and Calvinist agree that Grace must precede conversion, why do the Arminians claim that God cannot violate their wills. By the very action of Prevenient Grace coming prior to any decision, shows without it no one would be saved. The difference CrowCross in Effectual Grace God does the saving by the Regenerating power of the Holy Spirit. Whereas in the Arminian position there is no such thing. Though something happens to the sinner in the Arminian position but it's not effectual in saving anyone. Contradictory in terms, I absolutely say so. It's basically up to human activity that decides their fate, not in God's hands but in sinners hands; makes no sense to me.

Anyway, here's an excerpt from Arminius himself on the will of man; enjoy and keep doing your homework.

"But in his lapse and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good: but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections, or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good."

Now, ponder upon these words of Arminius for minute.​


The Father has to grant you the ability to come to Christ Jesus.
Yes, absolutely!
 
The Arminian position against Calvinists is that they think God brings people into heaven kicking and screaming against their wills. What God commands us to do, and us trusting him totally is the difference. Not wanting to do something because we think we know better is not God violating our wills. The old man is always at war with the new man. Trusting and having trust and faith God who is the one who is always faithful, when we are not.​
God who is not served by human hands as a will .He is of one mind and always does whatever his soul pleases. no mater how one kick and screams ,"He humbles( from humus "earth") His creation

He uses a Ass a ceremonial law a shadow of good things to come announcing the gospel. the sufferings of Christ before hand . When a female Ass was born if not redeemed with a lamb to represent our second born again birth they are to have thier necks broken, to represent the unbelieving world

The Potter shapes the clay .

Numbers 22:28 And the Lord opened the mouth of the ass, and she said unto Balaam, What have I done unto thee, that thou hast smitten me these three times?

Jesus did the will of the with delight (Philippians 2:13) Jonas in selfish false pride was thrown over board saved by a whale and vomited unto the dry land ,He kicked against the pricks screaming against his will . Knowing God would be faithful having experienced his great mercy and love . he would rather die . Follow the Son of man Jesus he di the will of the father with great delight .

There can be differences between Arminian, Calvinists as long as they do not do despite to the fullness grace the complete cost of salvation

Can't change the simplicity of the Gospel .Eternal God saving dying mankind .

He promises us if he began the good teaching work as a labor of His love in us yoked with he would finish to the last day
Some like myself slower leaner. 5th grade, to the back of the class, class clown Two hardest years of my life (lol)

"Kick against the pricks" resist the sting of the law the letter of the law "death" referred to a thorns and thistles.

Jonas suffered the pangs of hell for the selfish reason Jesus did it with delight

Acts 9:5 And he said, Who art thou, Lord? And the Lord said, I am Jesus whom thou persecutest: it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.
 
@Josheb

Maybe the simplest way to say it is,
"The fruit of faith needs a root, and a dead root will not do."
It's not just dead, it sinful and dead. What fruit does a sinful root bear? What plant, bush, or tree would sin beget? While I read the following verse with some degree of hyperbole, it's unequivocal bluntness is plain,

Luke 6:43-44
For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit. For men do not gather figs from thorns, nor do they pick grapes from a briar bush.

.
It is also true that the sinner abides under the wrath of God until he or she believes. And the natural man always naturally resists. So, until regeneration, there is always resistance, man naturally will resist, and therefore without a drawing by God, and if it were left up to man, there could be no salvation. man is passive and just being drawn to a 180.
Yes, but I am going to split a hair here because the premise of "resistance" implies there is some conscious willfulness and, as I have already submitted, will - the sinner's volition - is irrelevant. When Paul describes the natural man (1 Cor. 2:14), Paul plainly states the Spirit's things cannot be understood and they are considered foolishness. The question, therefore, must be asked, "Exactly what kind of volitional agency, liberty, or 'freedom' does that natural man possess?" and, since the answer is, "None!" we must conclude the sinner is no more "choosing" denial than s/he is choosing God. At best we can conclude the choice is sinfully dead and enslaved. Is that actually a choice? No! It is a contradiction in terms! The sinner is not able to make a choice in sinfully dead and enslaved ignorance. This is the substance of Calvin's argument the sinner "chooses" according to his nature. His nature is dead. His nature is death. The sinner (falsely) imagines himself to be volitionally active, but the truth is he is nothing more than an air-breathing and blood-pumping corpse plodding through what he (falsely) imagines is a life on his way toward his own destruction.

He cannot choose his way out of that condition.

The sinner's will is irrelevant.

Romans 8:6-8
For the mind of flesh is death, but the mind of the Spirit is life and peace, because the mind of flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, and those who are in the flesh cannot please God.


What will, what volition performs independent of the mind? What choice is never informed by the mind? None. Such a choice would be a mindless, thoughtless choice, the antithesis of the synergist appeal to verses like Romans 10:17. A person has to have a mind in order to hear. A person has to have a mind in order to know and understand. A person must have a mind in order to make choices..... and the mind of (sinful flesh absent the Holy Spirit does not and CANNOT please God. The things of the Spirit are foolishness and not understood. Any choice made thereof would be one made in ignorance, not just a sinful choice made by an impotent sinful mind hostile to God.

This is why the synergist soteriologies must reduce the severity of sin. NONE of their eisegetic inferences can stand, or withstand critical examination, apart from a lessened sin. Arminius was intelligent, and honest, enough to acknowledge the totally soteriological depraving effects of sin. All the other synergists must say something (that "something" is never specified) remains sufficient enough and by which the otherwise dead and enslaved sinful sinner can still choose God. They are wrong.

Will is irrelevant.
 
The question was, "Since both monergists and synergists might say God "woos" the person, what is the difference between Calvinist wooing and Arminian wooing?"
Scripture teaches just one way a man can believe because he is totally deprived.
That is correct: God must give him belief. Salvation by grace through faith is a gift of God, not something of our own (Eph. 2:8).
He cannot be woo’d by prevenient grace man’s nature must be changed.
That depends on how a person defines "prevenient grace." In the larger sense prevenient grace is simple the agency and work of God in the life of humanity, both individually and collectively. In the arena of the individual being saved prevenient grace covers the entire life of the one being saved, not just the moment of conversion (or regeneration). Those conditions - that view of God's wooing - like Total Depravity, are not unique to Arminianism. Calvin argued the very exact same thing when he asserted God ordained all things from eternity.

If we're going to critique and judge Arminianism's claim God won't (can't) violate the human will then let us do so justly and accurately.


The difference lays (lies?) in that imagined moment between death and life in which God supposedly "frees" or "liberates" the otherwise soteriologically depraved sinner to be able to make a choice for God and His salvation. That premise - the need to be freed to make that choice - directly contradicts the premise of some remaining volitional agency and that is why the non-Arminian synergists must discard both. The sinner isn't totally depraved and therefore has no need of a prevenient moment liberating him to make a salvific choice.

Something in the dead slave is good. 🤮
Arminians teach that a sinner can do nothing without grace.
So do Calvinists.
Prevenient grace which works on a man in his fallen nature until he, in his fallen nature decides for Christ.
And, as written, that is true of Calvinism, too.
Which is not biblical.

I think we agree
Remember: the question was about the differences. Calvinist monergism and Arminian synergism share a lot of ground. Arminius was Augustinian, like Bucer, Luther, Calvin, Bucer, and Beza. In its broadest sense prevenient grace is simply the grace of God in a person's life which precedes and prepares the sinner for conversion. It's not a specifically Arminian concept.

How Arminius applied it is different.


So, as long as we correctly discriminate the differences we agree. Both the angel and the devil are in the details and, as I have already said, if the premise of God not violating human volition (either because He will not or He cannot) is to be critiqued, criticized, refuted, and discarded, then let us do so justly. These are our Christological siblings with whom we disagree. While Paul wrote the following to address different corcumstances, his point applies.

1 Corinthians 11:18-19
For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you.

It will do me no good to call the allegiance to volitionalism an idol. That is the truth, but that truth is too provocative, too provoking, to serve the discussion.
 
Arminian total depravity could be taken care of by prevenient grace.
Arminian total depravity is no different than Calvinist (or Lutheran, or Augustinian) total depravity. Arminian prevenient grace is not wholly different from Augustinian or Calvinist prevenient grace. It is the differences that matter and the discussions, debates, arguments in forums' soteriology boards typically ignore, neglect, or obfuscation the common ground and important differences.

Post 15 should read something like "Total Depravity can be taken care of by the Arminian view of prevenient grace."


And then we explain how the Arminian view of God's grace preceding and preparing the sinner for salvation is different from the Calvinist/monergist view. This is important because 1) Arminius share common ground with the monergist where 2) the non-Arminian synergists do not. This op specified the Arminians' view, but many of the lurking synergists are not Arminian. By correctly identifying the Arminian view and correctly identifying the differences we serve everyone well. I'm not sure I have ever read Arminius come right out and explicitly stat "God will not violate the sinner's will." If he did then I would like 1) to read that source and 2) observe how the Arminian reconciles that with the prevenient moment of liberation freeing the otherwise dead, enslaved, and soteriologically depraved will because that, technically, is a violation of the sinner's will. 🤨
 
I think we must be careful of how we interpret this passage. And I believe you are so don't misunderstand me.
I believe, that before we (the elect) believe, we are placed in Christ, Christ takes hold of us, dwells in us, and works in us. We do not even know this is happening, then the Spirit regenerates the sinner, who in turn exorcizes faith in Christ completing the union. And from that union flows all other spiritual blessings.
I completely agree. At the time of my conversion, I thought I was an active and involved agent but as I have aged and matured in Christ and the knowledge of God's word, I realize I was wrong. My perceptions at that time were the influence of idolatry.
Where I think we must be careful is, on the total depravity of man and whether or not it could function in turning a man to God. Arminians and some others say it could. And how God does this drawing is of most importance. If this drawing causes man's will to become involved. Then God draws but the will of man is involved. According to this theory, God originates salvation but man nevertheless cooperates in it.
This may make good sense to the natural human way of thinking. But it is not what Scripture teaches.
Well.... I do think it is possible for God to do it that way. However, I do not find that to be what is taught in scripture. God can do anything He so chooses. Just because He can does not mean He did. Yes, Arminians may say total depravity can function in turning a sinner to God (a sinner, not just any man), but I am unaware Arminius ever made that argument. In other words, what Arminius taught and what internet forum Arminians post is often two entirely different content. As I believe I posted earlier, not all self-styled Arms are actually Reformed Arminian. A lot of Wesleyans think themselves Arminian and the two are not always identical. The differences increase with the Traditionalists/Provisionists, then the Pelagians, and the chasm is vast with the autonomists.

As the conversation(s) unfolds I am particularly glad the op specifies the Arminians because that helps to keep the "water" clear. Obfuscation will ensue when the non-Arms start posting their answers to this op's inquiries.
Jesus taught people when he was with them (drawing?), and they did not come, in fact, they finally killed him. So, sinners don't come, even if they hear the word unless the Father draws and teaches them inwardly by the Spirit. It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. John 6:45.

So when this happens, there follows a drawing other than that which is outward, Christ is then displayed by the enlightening of the Spirit, and by it man is completely fascinated by Christ, he being passive while God speaks, teaches, and draws, rather than seeking or running himself.

Jesus said, But I said to you that you have indeed seen Me, and yet you do not believe. 37 Everything that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I certainly will not cast out. John 6:36-37.

This implies that no one can come to Christ, apart from a special act of God on his behalf.
I completely agree AND would add 1) it ALL occurred in the inescapable context of the monergistically God-initiated covenant , the inescapable context of Christ being foreknown before the world's creation AND his ontological identity as the (only) resurrection and life by whom no one can otherwise come to God, and the inescapable precedent - the fact - he explicitly, overtly, undeniably called and chose every single one of the twelve and there's no record anywhere of his ever being denied. He chose them, he called, them, and he commanded them and not a single one of them said, "No." Are we to think that's happenstance? Was God/Jesus hoping for a positive response knowing He/he might not get one? Was he rolling the dice? ;)

"Oh well, I guess I'll go ask someone else since that guy declined my offer," is NOT what the gospels report.
So, when the Spirit is teaching, and Christ is revealed to us through regeneration (“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless someone is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.” John 3:3) this is the drawing [wooing]. The only one acting here is God, we are passive in this drawing.
I completely agree.



The will is irrelevant. 😁
 
Prevenient grace which works on a man in his fallen nature until he, in his fallen nature decides for Christ.
@Josheb wrote: And, as written, that is true of Calvinism, too.
Wrong.
I have to say you are wrong here. The man who is saved by faith was never saved while in the natural state.
 
Well.... I do think it is possible for God to do it that way. However, I do not find that to be what is taught in scripture. God can do anything He so chooses. Just because He can does not mean He did. Yes, Arminians may say total depravity can function in turning a sinner to God (a sinner, not just any man), but I am unaware Arminius ever made that argument. In other words, what Arminius taught and what internet forum Arminians post is often two entirely different content. As I believe I posted earlier, not all self-styled Arms are actually Reformed Arminian. A lot of Wesleyans think themselves Arminian and the two are not always identical. The differences increase with the Traditionalists/Provisionists, then the Pelagians, and the chasm is vast with the autonomists.
Arminius departed from the Reformed faith on a number of important points. After Arminius's death, forty-three of his ministerial followers drafted and presented their views to the States General of the Netherlands on five of these points in the Remonstrance of 1610.


The “Remonstrants,” taught
(1) election based on foreseen faith,
(2) the universal merits of Christ,
(3) the free will of man due to only partial depravity,
(4) the resistibility of grace, and
(5) the possibility of a lapse from grace

Canons-of-Dort-with-Intro.pdf
 
Arminius departed from the Reformed faith on a number of important points. After Arminius's death, forty-three of his ministerial followers drafted and presented their views to the States General of the Netherlands on five of these points in the Remonstrance of 1610.


The “Remonstrants,” taught
(1) election based on foreseen faith,
(2) the universal merits of Christ,
(3) the free will of man due to only partial depravity,
(4) the resistibility of grace, and
(5) the possibility of a lapse from grace

Canons-of-Dort-with-Intro.pdf
Yep.

Yes, the Five Article of Remonstrance are different than TULIP.

But.... the Remonstrance intentionally appeals to the differences and neglects the common ground. As Disputation 11 proves, Arminius was all in with Total Depravity, but no one would fathom that simply by reading Article 3 of the Remonstrance. If the word "unless" and everything after it were left out then Article 3 and the "T" in TULIP agree wholly. Furthermore, when prevenient grace is taken in its "generic" form (God acting to prepare the individual for salvation), there is no disagreement. It is only when they explain the specific prevenient grace (which is not disclosed in the Articles of Remonstrance) does the fact and difference come out. I sometimes wonder if the Remonstrance is honest.

But.... Calvin would agree with three of the five as written. It is only AFTER the words are defined by the Arminian do we find common language is used differently. The Calvinists believes election is based on foreseen faith because God gave the sinner his/her faith. The two are not sequentially conditional and point 1 of the Remonstrance does not explicitly state the conditional nature (or the potential problem of a compromised omniscience). The "devil" is in what is NOT stated. For example, in Philip Schaff's commentary of the Remonstrance, we read Article 1 of the Remonstrance to say,

"Conditional Predestination.—God has immutably decreed, from eternity, to save those men who, by the grace of the Holy Spirit, believe in Jesus Christ, and by the same grace persevere in the obedience of faith to the end; and, on the other hand, to condemn the unbelievers and unconverted (John iii. 36).

Election and condemnation are thus conditioned by foreknowledge, and made dependent on the foreseen faith or unbelief of men."

The Calvinist will agree...

  • God has immutably decreed from eternity to save those who by the grace of God's Spirit believe in Jesus soteriologically.
  • God has likewise immutably decreed by the same grace perseverance in the obedience of the faith to the end.
  • God has likewise immutably decreed to condemn unbelievers and unconverted.
  • Election and condemnation are [both] thus conditioned by foreknowledge.
  • Election and condemnation are [both] thus conditioned on the foreseen faith or unbelief of [the dead and enslaved sinner].

As written, we'd agree. The problem arises when the Arminian explains what he means. The same condition exists in TULIP. The concepts in TULIP do not mean what they actually state in the ordinary usage of the words. First, the are ALL (with the possible exception of the "T") intended to be read as God-centric, not human-centric, or sinner-centric. The "I" of Irresistible Grace does OT mean a finite sinful human can resist the grace of the Infinite Almighty God. It means, instead, God's grace accomplishes what God purposes it to accomplish. That is a point with which Arminius and most Arminians could agree as written. Of course God's grace accomplishes what He intends and purposes it to accomplish. If He did not accomplish His purpose, then that would be a failure and the sovereign almighty infinite Creator does not and cannot fail. The question is does He purpose His grace to save a person....... apart from that sinfully dead and enslaved sinner's sinfully dead and enslaved will?

No.

The will is irrelevant.




It's worth noting that the Remonstrance never actually explicitly mentions the will of the sinner 🤨 .

I won't deconstruct the entire Remonstrance (unless asked). Once the fact volition is irrelevant is grasped then the faults in synergism become increasingly obvious, or if not obvious then recognizable with a modicum of critical reasoning. There will prove to be a host of voids in scripture and a growing list of eisegetic inferences, all of which serve in evidence to prove the faultiness of Arminianism (and the more volitional soteriologies).


Btw, for those with an interest, the works of Arminius can be found at CCEL, especially the aforementioned Disputation 11. It's a great resource.
 
Yes, the Five Article of Remonstrance are different than TULIP.
Indeed they are.
But.... the Remonstrance intentionally appeals to the differences and neglects the common ground. As Disputation 11 proves, Arminius was all in with Total Depravity, but no one would fathom that simply by reading Article 3 of the Remonstrance
For Arminius (and most of his followers), a person must be graced by the Spirit of God, (prevenient grace) in the overcoming of the depraved nature so that the person may be freed to believe in Christ Jesus, if he or she will.
If this is accomplished and not resisted, then the person is justified and regenerated. There is a big difference here. Again, points to man's ability. man, made able.
They teach, sinners must be enabled by God because they are totally and utterly depraved.
Calvinism teaches man is totally depraved and cannot be enabled while in the fallen nature, his nature must me changed. The sinner must be crucified first.

But.... Calvin would agree with three of the five as written. It is only AFTER the words are defined by the Arminian do we find common language is used differently. The Calvinists believes election is based on foreseen faith because God gave the sinner his/her faith.
I believe you would have a hard time pointing this teaching of Calvin out because I do not believe he teaches such. To forsee this faith is the obvious outcome because God is Almighty and soverigne and chooses His elect. To say election is based on forseen faith points to man's ability. If God did not elect an individual, he would never have faith to see. Scripture is Christcentric and never points or puts any emphasis on man, nor his ability.
So, in Calvinism (and scripture for that matter), election is never based on (Arminianism) forseen faith.
And not only that, but there was also Rebekah, when she had conceived twins by one man, our father Isaac; 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God’s purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls, Romans 9:10-11.

If election was based on a foreseen faith, then election would actually be based on something the person did
 
If God cannot violate man’s will, why do Arminian's pray for God to save them? Are Arminians confused?

Shouldn't you rather beg the person to believe?
Arminianism teaches God thwarts Total Depravity, so that the Will Man won't be Violated; only the Stoney Heart...

The task is to Conflate the Stoney Heart with the Fallen Will; or to draw a Distinction between the Two...
 
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But.... Calvin would agree with three of the five as written. It is only AFTER the words are defined by the Arminian do we find common language is used differently. The Calvinists believes election is based on foreseen faith because God gave the sinner his/her faith. The two are not sequentially conditional and point 1 of the Remonstrance does not explicitly state the conditional nature (or the potential problem of a compromised omniscience). The "devil" is in what is NOT stated. For example, in Philip Schaff's commentary of the Remonstrance, we read Article 1 of the Remonstrance to say,
I'd also like to point out that Predestination has existed from eternity. I'm probably singing to the choir here but, I tend to do that.

Scripture teaches God chose us before the foundations of the world were laid. just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love Eph 1:4.
Grace was given us before all ages as well. Not because of anything we have done. who saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace, which was granted to us in Christ Jesus from all eternity, 1 Tim 1:9.

It operated in the very beginning of God's work, but there is no inward difference in the predestined until salvation was actually applied. Among them we too all previously lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the rest. Eph 2:3.

Because by nature we were like the children of wrath.
Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. 1 Cor 6:11

Before salvation put nothing in any of us, but it all lies hidden in God ho predestines.
 
Arminianism teaches God thwarts Total Depravity, so that the Will Man won't be Violated; only the Stoney Heart...

The task is to Conflate the Stoney Heart with the Fallen Will; or to draw a Distinction between the Two...
Yes, just how serious the heresy of Armoinianism is is quite difficult to really understand.
 
Yes, just how serious the heresy of Armoinianism is is quite difficult to really understand.
These days, I like to think that Provisionism can be the biggest Threat; pretending to be Arminians...
 
The times in reformed theology and scripture, where foreknow comes up is how God knows those who are His.

Nevertheless, the firm foundation of God stands, having this seal: “The Lord knows those who are His;” and, “Everyone who names the name of the Lord is to keep away from wickedness.” 2 Tim 2:19.

Nevertheless, do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rejoice that your names are recorded in heaven.” Luke 10:20.
 
It's not just dead, it sinful and dead. What fruit does a sinful root bear? What plant, bush, or tree would sin beget? While I read the following verse with some degree of hyperbole, it's unequivocal bluntness is plain,
I would agree.

Rooted and grounded in Christ

I would offer we look to the unseen things of God the eternal . He as a God who hides himself is the root that gives spirit life to the plant the Father of all spirit life.

The word root is used 70 that way throughout to represent the unseen of God things of faith .His working with us as Emmanuel.

faith = root Have not root (power) Same as have no faith that could please God

Mark 4:17 And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.

Romans 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.
Isaiah 45:15 Verily thou art a God that hidest thyself, O God of Israel, the Saviour.

Ephesians 3:17That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,

Look to the unseen eternal things of God (roots, faith) not the temporal dying. the historic. . . They must be mixed .
 
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