GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

Do you even know what "LUST" is??

Absolutely.
Do you?

 

[ReverendRV]

But Adam sinned.
Where did his sin come from?

It came from his Tempted Goodness, not from his Tempted Perfection...

 

[Eleanor]

So we are sinners because we sin?

We are sinners because we are descendants of Adam, who was not created a sinner but chose to make himself a sinner.

 

[Eleanor]

Which handles the question of: "what does God do about babies" nicely. The "Original SIN" foolishness seems rather pervasive in Christendom. One BECOMES a "SINNER" when for the first time they SIN, and fall short of God's glory. The rest is nothing but "Theology". Adam's HUMAN NATURE never changed. Jesus was given EXACTLY the same temptations as Adam, but Jesus "Aced them", and stayed sinless.

Because you don't understand that Adam's sin is imputed to all mankind (Ro 5:12-14, 18).

 

[jeremiah1five]

It came from his Tempted Goodness, not from his Tempted Perfection...

Is that from his holiness or unholiness.
There is some standing of Adam before God and God sees everything as holy or unholy.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Ah, free will

We are sinners because we are descendants of Adam, who was not created a sinner but chose to make himself a sinner.

Ah, free will.
Was Adam holy or unholy?

 

[Eleanor]

An unfallen Adam was still but natural, Jesus was always Spiritual

Adam had God's divine eternal life within his immortal human spirit, which life he lost when he sinned, and is the meaning of spiritual death, in which we are all born.
Spiritual death does not mean the death of our immortal human spirit, it means the "death" (absence) of God's divine eternal life within our immortal human spirit.
Re-birth is the Holy Spirit's re-impartation of that eternal life to our immortal human spirit.

 

[ReverendRV]

Is that from his holiness or unholiness.
There is some standing of Adam before God and God sees everything as holy or unholy.

Adam was Neutral, but chose to become the enemy of God. We are children of God according to Adoption. Adam was an Adopted son after he Fell; not before he Fell. Thus Adam was Created Good, Created Neutral. Adam needed to be Perfected by the Edenic Law of Works; as Jesus needed to be Perfected by the Mosaic Law of Works...

Covenant Theology...

 

[Eleanor]

Ah, free will

Ah, free will.
Was Adam holy or unholy?

Holy = set apart. . .from sin, and to God.

Adam was created perfectly holy--with no sin, but corruptible.

He became a sinner when he sinned.

He becomes holy again to the degree that he is set apart from sin, which is never completely this side of the resurrection.

 

[Eleanor]

Adam was Neutral, but chose to become the enemy of God. We are children of God according to Adoption. Adam was an Adopted son after he Fell; not before he Fell. Thus Adam was Created Good, Created Neutral. Adam needed to be Perfected by the Edenic Law of Works; as Jesus needed to be Perfected by the Mosaic Law of Works...

Covenant Theology...

Methinks Adam had to be tried by God's command, just as the angels were tried, and some of them failed their trial, as did Adam, but Jesus did not.

 

[Carbon]

“Sin” or “sinful” as Strong defines the word means "missing the mark."
What is the "mark?"
The mark (or standard) is the glory of God (or the glory that is God.)

I used to believe early when after I was saved because I was taught this from the pulpit that man/Adam was created sinless and holy before he disobeyed God and ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and became a sinner. But as I learned more and more through the years how to study, and the Holy Spirit within me began to teach me things about this "so-great salvation" that contradicted at times the teachings from the pulpit and Home Bible-Study instructors, I found myself in a peculiar situation. Do I believe what I am hearing, or do I believe the Scripture and the anointing that was so very evident in my life and in my studies. I trusted the Word of God and what I was coming to see was indeed the building of this "so-great salvation" and the "working out of my own salvation" in my life. I hope there is something in this submission that the Lord uses to also build that "mansion" in your own life. So, in consideration of James 3:11, let me begin.

I find no difference between these two Directives: The Law of God and the Commands of God. The Law of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law. We find in Scripture that the existence of the Law shows us that we are indeed sinners.
A very good, clear, and concise instruction from the apostle Paul on this very thing is found in his letter to the Christians at Rome. He says:

Romans 7:7 (KJV)
7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Simply put, the existence of a Law shows us that we are sinners. "Thou shalt not steal" shows us we are thieves. "Thou shalt not commit adultery" shows us that we are unfaithful, and so on. We also learn early on that there is only One God, there is none like Him, and He gives His glory (of which Holiness, Righteousness, Omniscience, Omni-present, etc., are His glory) to NO ONE.

When God created man/Adam from the dust of the ground, the man/Adam possessed no Deific Attributes. God did not give His glory to man. It is quite impossible really, as God cannot re-duplicate, transfer, share, give, any aspect of His Nature and His glory to created matter - in the case of man/Adam who was created from something – the dust of the ground, the earth.

1 Corinthians 15:45-50 (KJV)
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.
50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
[Verse 50 is significant, as it is relevant to this post, but its inclusion will make this post very long to explain.]

Verse 49 states that man/Adam had "borne the image of the earthy." Yet, Genesis states the [we] are "made" in the image of God who is heavenly (1:26).
So, here we have what seems a contradiction. Which is it? When we find a seeming contradict in Scripture what do we do? Do we take hold of that Scripture that supports our theology? Or do we ask, seek, knock, and search deeper and await God to apply His Truth so that each passage coincides and "fits" His theology? ("theology" is a compound word from two Greek words: "theos" means "God," and "logy" comes from the word "logos," meaning "word" or "thought." Thus, put together means "Word of God."

So, as we consider man/Adam in his creation and apply the Law/Command of God to Adam, and the fact that the existence of [the] Law shows us we are sinners, so does this apply to Adam? Very simple: The Law/Command of God is in the Garden showing that Adam was a sinner created sin-ful ["missing the mark" of the glory of God.]

Genesis 2:17 (KJV)
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, THOU SHALT NOT eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Applying what Paul taught about the existence of the Law in Romans 7:7, it would be applicable as follows:

ADAM: "What shall I say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law (or Command): for I had not known DISOBEDIENCE, except the law had said, Thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Adam did bear the image of God in body, soul, and [human] spirit, a trichotomy. But he was also created of the earth, and thus Paul teaches Adam was "earthy" [of the earth.] The image of God is Christ, not Adam. Adam is of the earth, earthy; the image of God is His Son, Christ. Christ, the second Adam is from heaven. And there is no better image of a Father than a Son.

Man/Adam was created sin-ful, or "missing the mark [of the glory of God]" and this is why he was a sinner BEFORE he disobeyed.

1 Samuel 24:13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:

Sin [disobedience] comes from sinner, sin does not come from holy. The last Adam proved this. Christ was Holy, Christ was Righteous, Christ was Sinless, He did not sin. But the first man, who bore the image of the earthy (and not of 'heaven' as 1 Cor. 15:49 states), sinned.

He sinned because he was a sinner. He is not a sinner because he sinned.

Nope. God created Adam good. God even said so Himself

 

[Eleanor]

Nope. God created Adam good. God even said so Himself

Praise God!

< frying pan returned to cabinet >

 

[Carbon]

Morally good? Perfectly good? Or good according to God's purpose?

All of the above

 

[fastfredy0]

Adam was Neutral

How can Adam be Neutral (not Holy or Unholy) if everything God created was Good.
Adam was created holy IMO. (For man or objects, holiness in the Bible means “devotion to God’s honor” and “separation from evil or that which is common”. )

 

[fastfredy0]

We are sinners because we are descendants of Adam, who was not created a sinner but chose to make himself a sinner.

Agreed
Psalm 51:5 I was brought forth in [a state of] wickedness; In sin my mother conceived me [and from my beginning I, too, was sinful].
Psalm 58:3; Job 14:4

 

[Eleanor]

I agree with Sproul, Adam was fallen before he fell.

Why do you think that?

 

[ReverendRV]

How can Adam be Neutral (not Holy or Unholy) if everything God created was Good.
Adam was created holy IMO. (For man or objects, holiness in the Bible means “devotion to God’s honor” and “separation from evil or that which is common”. )

The Mosaic Covenant of Works was Synergistic. Israel promised God, 'If we Keep the Commandments, it will be our Righteousness'. It was the same for Adam; he needed to be Perfected too. Adam was Created Good, not Perfect; Jesus was Made Good, not Perfect. They were in a State of Innocence; and that's Neutral...

 

[ReverendRV]

The Mosaic Covenant of Works was Synergistic. Israel promised God, 'If we Keep the Commandments, it will be our Righteousness'. It was the same for Adam; he needed to be Perfected too. Adam was Created Good, not Perfect; Jesus was Made Good, not Perfect. They were in a State of Innocence; and that's Neutral...

Perfection ~ by ReverendRV * August 8

Hebrews 5:9 KJV; And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. This is something that is pretty hard to swallow; unless you consider this as speaking of Christ’s Humanity. You ask, “Why would a perfect man need to be made perfect??” Your question is bogged down with a Presupposition; when the Bible says that he needed to be made perfect, why would you say that he was already perfect? ~ I know someone who is troubled by a relative who comes to their house and always judges how clean it is. This relative is the type who spring-cleans their home daily. The judging is harsh, but the truth of the matter is that the house is cleaned ‘Good’; although it may not be ‘Perfect’. I told this person not to worry, even ‘Good’ was good enough for God; let me explain. ~ When God created the world he saw that it was ‘Good’. We have a tendency to define this as ‘Perfect’ because there was no Sin in the world; yet. Just like Jesus, the first Man Adam needed to be perfected. Keeping the Law of God comes with a promise; ‘it will be our Righteousness’. But the problem is that only Adam and Jesus could be made Perfect by God’s Law; It makes us Imperfect…

These two men were brought forth Sinless and are the only two people that God chose to be Federal Heads for Humanity; you are either with one or the other. Since everyone else is born in Adam’s jurisdiction, the Law of God cannot help you at all. Have you ever told a Lie? What do you call someone that tells Lies? Not so perfect; are you? Have you ever Stolen anything? What do you call someone who Steals? Have you ever used God as a filthy cuss word? Just how many of the Ten Commandments can we break and still be Good; no less still be Perfect?? These are only a few of the ten; if God judged you by them would you be guilty or innocent? God sends guilty Sinners to Hell forever. ~ You object, “You said earlier that ‘Good’ is good enough for God?!” This is true for someone who is like Switzerland and neutral; but you are not an unfallen Adam or a Jesus Christ…

You need to be made perfect, there is still time! Adam ate the apple and broke the Law of God, becoming imperfect. But Jesus kept the Ten Commandments and this made him Perfect. As God, he loves the world so much that he shares his perfect record with all who will believe in him as their Lord and Savior. Jesus died on a Cross, was buried for three days but rose from the dead; you can’t keep a perfect man down! We are Saved by the Grace of God through Faith in Christ our Lord, without our trying to perfect ourselves. If we try to earn perfection, then Grace is no longer Grace. ~ Find a Church and start reading the Bible; Repent of your Sins and Confess Jesus as Lord. Though God sees the Church as Perfect because of his Perfect Son, we will not be perfected until he returns to Judge the world. He has left us his Perfect Holy Spirit and the Bible to help us along the Way…

Psalm 18:13 NIV; As for God, his way is perfect: The LORD's word is flawless; he shields all who take refuge in him.

 

[fastfredy0]

Re: I agree with Sproul, Adam was fallen before he fell.

Why do you think that?

Maybe in the eternal sense Adam fell before he fell; it's a done deal.

 

[Eleanor]

I'll never tell you.

Interesting. . .