GOD CREATED MAN (ADAM) SINFUL

[jeremiah1five]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God, Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God. "Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless." Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

God created the first man and woman sinful. The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains. The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."
Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."
There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.
But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God. If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

 

[CrowCross]

There is a lot to cover so bear with me.
Let's go.

There is no difference between the Laws of God and His Commands.
The Laws of God are His Commands, and the Commands of God are Law.

What was the 'make-up' of man? Was he holy? Righteous? Sinless? Innocent? Good? And what does "good" mean?

Adam was righteous, sinless, innocent and VERY good when he was created from the dust.

10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: Romans 3:10.

Adam was prior to the fall.

20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
Romans 3:20.

OK?????

Knowledge of sin. Isn't that the name given to the tree in Eden the Garden of God?
The Tree of the KNOWLEDGE of Good and Evil.
So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin. It didn't make him sinful.
But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

Are you saying Adam didn't understand good until he ate from the same tree?

Adam had a limited knowledge of what was right and wrong, good and evil prior to the fall.....after he ate his eyes were open.

15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. Romans 4:15.

16 And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. Genesis 2:16–17.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Romans 5:13.

But there was a law in the Garden. There was a "thou shalt not" in the Garden, and the Law shows us we are sinners. It doesn't make us sinners, but it shows we are sinners.

Did it show Adam he was a sinner...or that he could be disobedient and commit sin if he choose too.

7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
8 But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead. 9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:7–9.

If there is no law, there is no sin.
But there was a Law, a Command in the Garden. God said, "Thou shalt not [eat of it]."
As Paul says, the existence of a Law/Command shows us we are sinners. Paul says, "I had not KNOWN lust, except the Law/Command had said, thou shalt not covet."
So, let's apply this to the first man.

This would mean Adams progeny could not sin until the law was given to Moses by God.

ADAM: "I had not KNOWN sin but by the Law/Command. I had not KNOWN disobedience except the Law/Command said, thou shalt not [eat of it.]"

Pretty straightforward. The Law/Command in the Garden showed that the first man (Adam) was a sinner BEFORE he sinned for the existence of Law/Command shows us we are sinners, as Paul said, "I had not KNOWN sin but by the [existence] of the Law/Command. Paul didn't have to lust to have broken the Law against coveting. It was the Law/Command that showed him he was a sinner before the actual act of sin.

9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died. Romans 7:9.

He doesn't say he committed any sin by which he died, but WHEN the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.

10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.
11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me. Romans 7:10-11.

You're making an assumption about Adam....pure speculation. No where does the bible say Adam was created as a sinner.
The bible does say Gods creation was made VERY good. This would include Adam. (and Eve).

What was the created 'make-up' of the first man (and woman)? They were created sinful. And what is sin? Sin is death, and death is sin. And the Greek word in the KJV translated as "sin" is "hamartia." This word derives from [#264] "hamartano" and it simply means [to] "miss the mark."
What is the "mark" that is "missed"?
The Glory of God. Or the Glory that is God.

The mark that was missed was Adams disobedience .

There are those that say Adam was created "good." But what does that mean? There is none good, that is God,

That reference is made concerning a fallen mankind with a sin nature....Jesus wasn't speaking of Adams original state.

Jesus said. He wouldn't even accept that designation and He is the Son of the Living God.

Jesus was speaking as a "teacher"...speaking of people. Where does the bible say Jesus wouldn't accept the designation? This is simply more speculation on your part.

"Good" doesn't mean "holy," or "righteous," or "sinless."

The bible says only God is good....but you just claimed God who is good....by your definition is not holy, righteous or sinless.

Your argument is falling apart.

Those words don't appear in Genesis creation. Even the word "morally" good doesn't appear here. Nor does "innocent." But the word "good" merely means, "good enough," or "well [enough]" or "to specification." God says His creation is "to specification" or "well enough" after a creative act. He says this after creating the grass and herb yielding seed. Surely, grass and herb yielding seed is not righteous, or holy, or sinless, is it? No, it is not. But they were created to God's specification, and He pronounced the grass and herb yielding seed good [to specification.]

Even if your definition is correct.....God said Adam was VERY good which places Adam above your description.

God created the first man and woman sinful.

No, but with the ability to sin.

The Law/Command of God "Thou shalt not eat of it" showed they were sinful before any act of sin as Paul explains.

No, it showed Adam had the ability to trust in God for all...or become like a God and trust in himself.

The man and woman disobeyed God. He said they would by the very Law/Command to not eat from the Tree. And the Tree only gave them the KNOWLEDGE of their sin for when the Law/Command came, sin revived, and they died. There was no act of sin by which they became sinners. They sinned BECAUSE they were sinners as the Law/Command says they were.

Wrong, they understood eating from the tree was sin...disobedience.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked:
1 Samuel 24:13.

That's the same as saying, "sin comes from sinners."

If sin comes from sin and Adam was created as a sinner...then God is a sinner as sin comes from sin as God was the creator of a sinner.

Your theology continues to fall apart.

 

[CrowCross]

Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.
The Doctrine of Imputation teaches that it was a nature-swap with sinful man. At the cross the only begotten Son became a sin offering. He didn't die for any act of sin, but for the sinful nature God created man. A nature-swap. We are imputed His righteous nature, and He is imputed our sinful nature.

If your sinful nature has been imputed to Christ on the cross....why do you still sin?

21 For he hath made him [to be] sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.
2 Corinthians 5:21.

Yes, we are given the righteousness of Christ..but our sin nature will exist until we are fully sanctified and become like Christ.
As for the saved born again humans....our sins will not be counted against us as they were all imputed to Christ Jesus.

It is a nature-swap. It doesn't say, "For he hath made him [to be] the acts of sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteous acts of God in him."
If He died for the sinful acts this would still leave the sin nature in man and we surely cannot enter heaven with a sin nature if Christ only died for our acts of sin.

God created the first man sinful, that is, "missing the mark" of the Glory of God, or "fallen short of His Glory."

Once again, where does the bible mention that? A chapter and verse would be nice rather than your faulty speculation.

There is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
The only Person who can stand before a Holy God blameless is the Holy Son.

Clothed in the righteousness of Christ I can. I can boldly go into the throne room of God and stand before God blameless

 

[CrowCross]

But you say, "that makes God the author of sin."
No, I don't say that. God does. Through His prophet Isaiah:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

Are you really trying to use that verse?

The bible often uses what is called a parallelism. That is the opposite word is used to help explain the other word.
For example in your verse above light is the opposite of darkness.
Evil isn't the opposite of peace. That is why translation use the word calamity rather than evil....as calamity is the opposite of evil.

I suggest you choose another verse to support your broken theology.

Anything and everything in creation is the result of God. He is the first cause of everything in His creation.
Nothing just shows up. If anything exists it is because God caused it. God is Sovereign over His creation.

God didn't cause sin or evil, but rather has only allowed it to happen.

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.
That's the only way they can be created for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His Glory to NO ONE.
Man was not created possessing any of the Nature or Deific Attributes of God.

Man was created in God image.

If man possessed even just one Deific Attribute of God, he would by necessity must possess ALL Deific Attributes of God else he would still fall short of the Glory of God. God is the standard by which anything and everything shall be judged against.
Bible Study.

Your post has tried to show God is sinful when God created man in his own image as a sinner......

 

[jeremiah1five]

Adam was righteous, sinless, innocent and VERY good when he was created from the dust.

So, sin comes from righteousness?
The word "good" merely means "good" enough, or "to specification."
It's like when one makes a tray of food and after tasting one says "It's good," or made as the recipe instructed.

Adam was prior to the fall.
OK?????
Are you saying Adam didn't understand good until he ate from the same tree?

Yes. Until the Law/Command sin was in the Garden.

13 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Rom. 5:13.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam’s transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.
Rom. 5:14.

If there was no Law/Command there was no sin. All Adam knew was "Good." But when the Commandment came, sin revived, and he died.
As sinful as Adam was if there was no Law/Command to show him he was sinful everything he did was "Good" in the eyes of God until the time of testing and revelation that he was sinful.

Adam had a limited knowledge of what was right and wrong, good and evil prior to the fall.....after he ate his eyes were open.

Until the Command came and there was no restriction at all to do anything: all was "good." He knew no "evil" until the Law/Command came that showed him he was sinful just as the Law/Command did when God gave His Laws/Commands to the children of Israel. Once God said "Thou shalt not" [steal] it was not against God to steal. Everyone did what was "right" in their own eyes. Without Law. Without restriction. This was the effect of the children of the covenant Sethian family line (sons of God) marrying and having offspring with the [non-covenant] daughters of men. Their children grew up "nephalim" or "tyrants" and "bullies" as the word is defined by Strong's. Like children in a sandbox. Everything in their behavior was permitted until mother says it is not, such as striking another kid with a plastic shovel.

Did it show Adam he was a sinner...or that he could be disobedient and commit sin if he choose too.

Sin must come from somewhere. It doesn't just appear.

13 As saith the proverb of the ancients, Wickedness proceedeth from the wicked: 1 Sam. 24:13.

That's the same thing as saying, "sin comes from sinner."
Sin definitely does not come from righteous or holy.
The lesson of being born sinless, holy, or righteous, as Jesus Christ was, is that one does not and cannot sin.

This would mean Adams progeny could not sin until the law was given to Moses by God.

No, they could sin, and they did. But until God called it "sin" it was not sin.
Case in point: Humankind inter-married with their sisters and daughters and brother and sons and uncles and aunts to populate the earth. This is what we call incest. And it was permitted by God. But when God called it a sin then it was a sin.

You're making an assumption about Adam....pure speculation. No where does the bible say Adam was created as a sinner.

Nor does it say God is a Trinity. But through Scripture, (the Holy Spirit), and reason then we understand the things of God. Before the Holy Spirit all men knew in the Mosaic Covenant was the letter of the Law. When Christ came, He taught the "spirit of the Law." This was the basis of the contention between the religious leaders of Israel who only knew the letter of the Law and Jesus who taught the spirit of the Law.
Everything Christ taught is found in the Law, the Psalms, and the Prophets. There were no new commandments when Jesus was on the planet. He taught from the Law, Psalms, and Prophets.
John says:

25 And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written.
Jn 21:25.

But it was all Law, Psalms, and Prophets. A new perspective in seeing these things.
Saul had the same problem with the Judaizers. They called what he taught "heresy" (Acts 24:14.)
And their stumbling stone was they could not reconcile how their Messiah died on a tree for in the Law it says anyone dying on a tree was cursed.

The bible does say Gods creation was made VERY good. This would include Adam. (and Eve).

Yes, but the word means "to specification" or "good [enough]."
There was no "moral" or holiness or righteousness indicated in this word.
God also called the grass and the herb-bearing seed "good." Same word.
Surely, you're not going to say grass is morally "good" or holy or righteous or sinless, are you?

The mark that was missed was Adams disobedience .

No, the mark that was missed was the command to not eat from the tree. That's where the "thou shalt not" lay.

That reference is made concerning a fallen mankind with a sin nature....Jesus wasn't speaking of Adams original state.

That's what YOU think.

Jesus was speaking as a "teacher"...speaking of people. Where does the bible say Jesus wouldn't accept the designation? This is simply more speculation on your part.
The bible says only God is good....but you just claimed God who is good....by your definition is not holy, righteous or sinless.

You're doing what is natural to the carnal mind. How can a Righteous God create an unrighteous being and His character not be impugned. The same way the high priest can enter the Holy of Holies. He must be "cleansed" or atoned for before coming into the Presence of God.
This was one of the reasons why a "lamb was slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world." THIS is what allowed a Righteous God to create an unrighteous being: man.

Your argument is falling apart.
Even if your definition is correct.....God said Adam was VERY good which places Adam above your description.

I guess grass and the herb-bearing seed is on the same moral par with Adam for God said these things were "good" too.

No, but with the ability to sin.
No, it showed Adam had the ability to trust in God for all...or become like a God and trust in himself.

Did the second Adam, Christ, have the ability to sin? No, for He was Holy and true sinlessness. These are Attributes of Deity and Adam possessed NO deific attributes of God. And this is why he sinned - because he was created fallen short of the Glory of God. Sin comes from sinner. Sin does not come from Holy. The second/last Adam, Christ, proves this.

Wrong, they understood eating from the tree was sin...disobedience.

They didn't understand their disobedience until God told them.
Case in point:

25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. Gen. 2:25.

God didn't mock the man and woman of their nakedness, but someone did.

7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. Gen. 3:7.

Why sew fig leaves together to cover themselves? Their eyes were opened after they ate from the tree, not before. And what did God say?

11 And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Gen. 3:11.

If sin comes from sin and Adam was created as a sinner...then God is a sinner as sin comes from sin as God was the creator of a sinner.

Everything God created in this universe is the direct result of God. I posted Isaiah but you refuse to accept what it says. It doesn't jive with your present theology. But the Scripture is still there and it says what many just cannot seem to grasp:

7 I form the light, and create darkness:
I make peace, and create evil:
I the LORD do all these things.
Isaiah 45:7.

 

[jeremiah1five]

If your sinful nature has been imputed to Christ on the cross....why do you still sin?

Not only that, but why do we still die?
From God's eternal perspective in what is called the eternal NOW God sees us as saved, holy, individuals. From His perspective everything has been said and done, Christ came, He's on the throne and the beast and false prophet are already in the Lake, and we are ALL with Him now.
But from our perspective in TIME, we are still in this body of this death.
We exist in a dispensation we now understand as "space-time." (thank you, Einstein.)

Yes, we are given the righteousness of Christ..but our sin nature will exist until we are fully sanctified and become like Christ.
As for the saved born again humans....our sins will not be counted against us as they were all imputed to Christ Jesus.

Correct-o-mundo. But as you said above, "why do we still sin"?
We are only one-third saved.
When Christ comes He's bringing the completion of our salvation.

Once again, where does the bible mention that? A chapter and verse would be nice rather than your faulty speculation.

Clothed in the righteousness of Christ I can. I can boldly go into the throne room of God and stand before God blameless

Throne room. Language of the First Covenant written to Jews.
And a throne belonging to a Jewish Messiah.
Gentiles know nothing of a "throne room" or in One God/Monotheism, being carried away with their dumb idols.
Since it is a Jewish-House-of-Israel Covenant those words apply to only the Jews.
God saves Gentiles without a covenant.
But the middle wall partition has been removed and I, as you (hopefully) do go to this "throne room."

 

[brightfame52]

In the beginning, was Adam the federal head for all mankind to include the reprobate, or for only the elect ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are you really trying to use that verse?

It's Scripture.
Receive or reject.
There is no medium.

The bible often uses what is called a parallelism. That is the opposite word is used to help explain the other word.
For example in your verse above light is the opposite of darkness.
Evil isn't the opposite of peace. That is why translation use the word calamity rather than evil....as calamity is the opposite of evil.
I suggest you choose another verse to support your broken theology.

It's Scripture.
Receive or reject.
There is no medium.

God didn't cause sin or evil, but rather has only allowed it to happen.

And its origin?

Man was created in God image.

44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1 Cor. 15:43–44.

14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
1 Cor. 2:14.

Your post has tried to show God is sinful when God created man in his own image as a sinner......

I never said God is sinful. It's your faulty thinking that cannot comprehend Scripture and reason.
I said God created man (Adam) sinful, or as the word is defined, "MISSING THE MARK."
What is the "mark" he missed?
The mark is the standard of the Glory of all that is God and is judged against.
That word "hamartia" is translated "sin" in the GREATEST TRANSLATION IN ALL OF CHRISTENDOM: The King James Version.
When I come to a verse in the Holy Writ that contradicts my belief, I CHANGE my belief to comply with the Word of God.
How about you?

 

[CrowCross]

It's Scripture.
Receive or reject.
There is no medium.

It's Scripture.
Receive or reject.
There is no medium.

Yeah, it's in the bible...so I suppose you can call it scripture...but the KJV got that one wrong.
Do you think Evil is the opposite of the word peace? That the word evil works with the parallelism?

 

[jeremiah1five]

In the beginning, was Adam the federal head for all mankind to include the reprobate, or for only the elect ?

God has always dealt with His covenant elect.
The rest He ignored, as though their prayers were sin, and they were.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Yeah, it's in the bible...so I suppose you can call it scripture...but the KJV got that one wrong.
Do you think Evil is the opposite of the word peace? That the word evil works with the parallelism?

Do you think the children of Israel was concerned about literary devices?
No. For them it was only letter of the Law.
God says what He means and means what He says.

Show me the money?
No, show me the Scripture.

 

[CrowCross]

Do you think the children of Israel was concerned about literary devices?

Are yu saying Isaiah didn't undertand poetry and other literary devices??? Are you really suggesting that?

No. For them it was only letter of the Law.
God says what He means and means what He says.

Show me the money?
No, show me the Scripture.

You lost.....time to move on.

BTW....here's some scripture I can show you...it's poetic.

 

[brightfame52]

God has always dealt with His covenant elect.
The rest He ignored, as though their prayers were sin, and they were.

Then how did the non elect reprobate come to be ? They weren't federally represented by Adam in the beginning correct ?

 

[jeremiah1five]

Are yu saying Isaiah didn't undertand poetry and other literary devices??? Are you really suggesting that?

You lost.....time to move on.

BTW....here's some scripture I can show you...it's poetic.

I'm saying Isaiah didn't need to.
He was commanded to speak and write what God gave him to speak and write without question, without editing.
That's what a prophet does.

 

[jeremiah1five]

Then how did the non elect reprobate come to be ? They weren't federally represented by Adam in the beginning correct ?

They were just born, as God overlooked Esau the elder, He chose Jacob the younger.
That the purposes of election might stand.

 

[CrowCross]

I'm saying Isaiah didn't need to.

OK, He didn't need to.....BUT he did.


Why are you even arguing this point?

He was commanded to speak and write what God gave him to speak and write without question, without editing.
That's what a prophet does.

Are you a prophet that you know this?

 

[Bob Carabbio]

So, the purpose of the Tree was to give the man the KNOWLEDGE of sin.

Nope the purpose of the tree was to CREATE A PROBLEM: I.e. God says: "DON'T EAT OF THAT TREE" or you'll DIE. HUMAN NATURE invariably has a desire for that which is forbidden.

Eve says the tree is: "good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise". and Satan says: "Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil". I.e. James 1:14,15 right to the letter!!!

It didn't make him sinful.

Right!! Eve, and then Adam MADE THEMSELVES SINFUL, when their LUST conceived, an they tossed God under the bus, and sided with satan against Him.

But did Christ die for the knowledge of sin? No, He did not. He died for sin.

He was a bloody SIN OFFERING (and a the "scape-goat").

Adam and the woman sinned because they were created sinful. They are NOT sinful because they sinned.

Nothing more that a "Theological assumption

For these initial reasons and Scripture I believe God created the first man and woman (Adam and Eve) sinful.

I disagree. THERE WAS NO SIN - until Eve, and then Adam SINNED. Their "natures" never changed, and I was imputed NOTHING from them, other than the same HUMAN NATURE they were created with.. I'm totally capable of becoming a SINNER on my own (and did as soon as I could).

 

[jeremiah1five]

OK, He didn't need to.....BUT he did.
Why are you even arguing this point?

No, he didn't. He wrote what God told him to write without any consideration if this should be a plural when God spoke it as singular, or this should be an adjective when God gave it as a verb, and things like that.
Men are the ones that do all that literary device methods and hermeneutics. It's only one thing: Letter of the Law." One-dimensional.

Are you a prophet that you know this?

Christ is Prophet.
He's also Apostle, Evangelist, Pastor/Shepherd, Teacher, High Priest, Mediator, Redeemer, King, etc.
I'm just a vessel He fills.

 

[brightfame52]

They were just born, as God overlooked Esau the elder, He chose Jacob the younger.
That the purposes of election might stand.

All that's True, however they are the serpents seed, they were brought into being for the purpose of God to show His Wrath and Justice. Even though they were the serpents seed, Adam was their natural progenitor. They come into the world the same way the elect do in their natural existence, difference however is they have no kinsman redeemer in Christ.

 

[CrowCross]

No, he didn't. He wrote what God told him to write without any consideration if this should be a plural when God spoke it as singular, or this should be an adjective when God gave it as a verb, and things like that.
Men are the ones that do all that literary device methods and hermeneutics. It's only one thing: Letter of the Law." One-dimensional.

Christ is Prophet.
He's also Apostle, Evangelist, Pastor/Shepherd, Teacher, High Priest, Mediator, Redeemer, King, etc.
I'm just a vessel He fills.

Look, I'm done with this branch of the thread...Isaiah used poetry. The opposite of evil isn't peace.

You can argue all you want to....but you lost. I hate to put it that blunt...part of what a forum is about is for you and me to learn. Instead of you learning a new truth, you decided to fight it. Then again, you're the self proclaimed know it all expert on all biblical topics.