Free Will ~yet again.

[Tambora]

Yes, but men have to write with men's words.

If that's the way God inspired scripture to be then the meaning scripture uses shouldn't be in question.

 

[Josheb]

I never said that. Those are your words.

you said...

• For example, because God is almighty, and we are not any and all conflict between the human will exists only as long as God permits. The creature CANNOT usurp the Creator's will.

NO~ As God was the designer and creator of all human life through his prototype as explained in Genesis and down through the ages
we continue. It is unfounded and unreasonable to conclude that God did not instill a "free" will into man in the first place.
You, and no one , has proven where it is said that God simply did not do that . You are second guessing the heavenly Father because
you have trouble understanding why he would do such a thing.
We know that the angels had a free will. At least Lucifer and 1/3 of his groupies did.

It is totally unreasonable to believe that humans would be excluded and then the world runs amuck.

A very good friend says this. I could not agree more....

No free will = God is responsible for all sin = the gospel is a farce. Another demonic delusion.

Think it through.

The word free means "not controlled, restricted, or limited" by anything. If we apply the agreed upon definition to your sentence, then your sentence reads as follows...

It is unfounded and unreasonable to conclude that God did not instill "an uncontrolled, unrestricted, and/or unlimited" will into man in the first place.​

It is unfounded and unreasonable to conclude God did not install a free will that had absolutely no controls, restrictions, or limits.​

You cannot truly believe that is the case. If it was an unlimited will then it never would have been affected be sin at all. You agreed the human will exists only as long as God permits (even though that is not what I previously posted). God's ability to end the human will is a restriction, a limit. Post 343 also states an agreement ignorance limits the will, and acknowledges a lack of understanding all possible options is controlling, restricting, and/or limiting. Since God did not endow humans with omniscience (all-knowing knowledge) the inescapable conclusion is that God did NOT instill in humanity a free will, but instead instilled in humans a limited will, a will that is controlled, restricted, limited by the human's God's permission and the human's limited knowledge (or lack thereof).

Taking steps to pursue personal goals is an example of autonomous behavior.

No, it is an example of voluntary behavior, not autonomous behavior. Big difference. The word "autonomous" means having the freedom to govern itself or control its own affairs. You've already gone on record agreeing infirmity, addiction, God's permission, and ignorance all control, restrict, or limit the human will. A person can pursue personal goals only within their infirmity, sobriety, God's permission, and their knowledge. When any of the agreed upon conditions exist that person is not autonomous, and their will is not free.

Our disagreement is that you seem to see anything from a fallen eyelash, to a quadriplegic not having free will due to imperfections that may result in a roadblock for desire of whatever.....

Please do not start attacking me personally.

I disagree. I do not see any boundaries that stop that because anyone with any affliction , especially if it is long enough has, IMO, a natural built in work around that they do not notice it is not cut and dried 1,2,3.

A "work around" would be unnecessary for an autonomous human whose will lacked any and all control, restriction, and/or limits.

People with handicaps manage when they want to.

Mmmmm..... they manage when they want to. So a person's want is a limit or restriction on their will?

Tell me again how a person can will themselves to survive a leap off a 1000-foot cliff. Seriously. I would like you to explain to me how that can happen because I took a 100-foot fall down a mountain and fractured my skull, traumatized both knees and suffered bruises and lacerations all over my body...... because the natural laws of physics God designed into creation took effect and I did not have a will free enough to cause my skull bone to crack the rocks instead of the other way around.

I volunteered working with combat veterans returning from Afghanistan and Iraq. If you can explain to me how a person can want the will to overcome the physics of a grenade, mortar, or improvised explosive device (IED) and prevent losing a limb then I will go the military and explain it to them. I'll take you with me and you can demonstrate whatever techniques you're employing. It'll make munitions obsolete! Wars might even end! There will certainly never be another handicap resulting from munitions. No more "work arounds"! It'll put the prosthetics industry out of business!

Would you please think through these claims before posting them. Try to identify the flaws before they are pointed out. Try anticipating the critics. Do not give them anything they can criticize.

It is one of the built in work arounds I believe our creator has given us to compensate.

What you believe and what you can prove may end up being two completely different matters but for the time being there are several internal contradictions in the posts I am reading.

Infirmities, addictions, ignorance, want, and God's permission control, restrict, limit the human will but there are work arounds for those experiencing the controls, restrictions, limits that would not otherwise be needed for an autonomous individual whose will is not controlled, restricted, or limited by anything.

Amazing. Of the copy of mine that I have in my reply to you , a lot of it is missing.... Not the first time either.

Yes, because I am trying to move this conversation incrementally and logically from one single point to the next. The post was edited to save space and focus solely on the agreed upon content. You leaped ahead imposing your belief in work arounds and God's provision and your personal beliefs before you earned the foundation to do so.

And in the process, you contradicted yourself.

I'm sure you do not want me pointing out the contradictions. I'll have nothing to point to if the posts are impeccable. So back up.

NO~ As God was the designer and creator of all human life through his prototype as explained in Genesis and down through the ages
we continue.

Did God, the Designer, design any controls, restrictions, or limits into human life?

It's a yes or no question.

 

[Josheb]

If you have a definition of FREE WILL then just state it in 50 words or less. One time you gave 3 or 4 definitions. Another time you adjusted your definition and said something like the definition didn't apply to people after they're saved (as best I recall) ... JUST STATE YOUR DEFINITION IN 50 WORDS OR LESS ... @Josheb will take it from there I assume.

Example: My personal definition of FREE WILL is:

The ability to choice what I desire most at the time.

..... see how easy the was ... only took 11 words; I gave you 50 words.

We've agreed upon a definition of "free." The word "free" means not having any controls, restrictions, or limits. We are in the process of applying that definition to the human will. @Rella and I have agreed on a handful of controls, restrictions, or limits (there may be more upon which we agree). Infirmity has a controlling, restricting, and/or limiting effect on the will. The infirm person's will is not free to choose what the infirmity has rendered impossible. Addiction and ignorance have also been agreed upon as controls, restrictions, and/or limits on the will. God's will is another. The human will exists only as long as God permits.* The human will is not free to will its own existence on any occasion when or where God wills it not to exist.

We're doing just fine in the incremental process of building upon consensus. Be patient with us .





*@Rella, my earlier point about God's permission was specifically about conflict, resisting God or the human will overriding or usurping God's will. The point was not about the will's existence. The point was about power and might. God is almighty. Humans are not almighty. God is infinite. Humans are finite. People defy God quite often but if God did not allow us to do so then no defiance could or would ever occur. On the occasion when someone does set his/her will against God's will that conflict or contest lasts only as long as God permits. God permits the contest. However, because God is almighty, He has the ability to end the contest at any point He so chooses. He can force a person's death and that would instantly end the contest . Contests with an all-powerful Creator are like children blowing chewed up pieces of paper through a straw in the middle of a nuclear explosion. The spit wad, the straw, and the child are near-instantly consumed in the ensuing inferno and destruction. It's not much of a contest. The only reason the human will exists is because God made it. The only reason any contest between the human will and God's will is because God permitted it. The only reason any conflict lasts a day, a week, a month, a year, decade, generation, century, etc. is solely because God permitted it to last that long. Do you think you can make God contest with you for a century?

 

[Rella]

Humans excluded from what you have not proven angels to have? All you have done is to assert that angels had free will. We don't know they had free will
We do know they chose.

How did they chose if they have no free will?
Or, what did they choose?

Can you explain how, as far as we know, none of the fallen angels have repented,

Because it is not in the Holy Book?

Consider the following...........

While The Holy Book does not specifically address the issue of fallen angels having an opportunity to repent, but we can gain some insight from what the Holy Book does say.

First, Ezekiel 28:14 tells us Satan (Lucifer) was one of the highest angels, perhaps the highest . Lucifer...and all the angels...were continually in God’s presence and had knowledge of the glory of God. They had no excuse for rebelling against God and turning away from Him. They were not tempted.

Lucifer and the other angels rebelling against God despite what they knew was the utmost evil.

Most important ~ #2.... God did not provide a plan of redemption for the angels as He did for mankind. The fall of the human race necessitated an atoning sacrifice for sin, and God provided that sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In His grace, God redeemed the human race and brought glory to Himself.

No such sacrifice was planned for the angels. In addition, in 1 Tim 5:21 God referred to those angels who remain faithful to Him as His “elect angels” .

We know from the biblical doctrine of election that those whom God elects to salvation will be saved, and nothing can separate them from God’s love as we read in Romans 8: 38-39. Clearly, those angels who rebelled were not “elect angels” of God.

C. the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance ... se 1 Peter 5:8. The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God’s people. The Bible says that the severity of God’s judgment varies according to how much knowledge a person possesses ....see Luke 12:48. The fallen angels, then, with the great knowledge they possessed, are greatly deserving of God’s wrath.

I think it far more important and interesting, rather then debate if they had been made with free will or just the ability to choose is WHY
they made the choice to follow Lucifer.

nor have any of the righteous angels fallen away since then?

What proof do you have of this?

Have they all chosen to not have freewill anymore?

Why would they lose it if the chose to stay and worship God?

What makes you think the world has run amuck? All things progress precisely as he determined they would, for the purposes that will be clear when we see him as he is. This life is not about us. It's not even about what we see in this life.

This is not even worth a comment....

But consider for one nano - moment .

Can you prove that before time (ours) that when Yahweh was drawing up His plans for how things would start and end on the ball of mud
we all walk on that it was not some masterful plan in a war with Lucifer/Satan and Himself?

God had no control over Lucifer.... period. Other then to cast him out of heaven to this world. To be god of this world.

2 Cor 4:3-4 tells us

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [a]to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this [b]world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [c]so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God

Without free will who would be blinded? Or why would a choice need to be made?

You say the world is running as God intended... With tampons in the 4th grade boys bathrooms, and condoms in the girls a couple grades later?


How about when.. just a handful of years ago mothers were not taking their tots to drag shows, but were actually taping down their penises?
(instructions and products for doing so were available online) And the blocking of schools to tell parents when their daughters were going to have an abortion? And now the gender affirming education that is having even grade schoolers want to change their sex... and again the complicit schools help but keep it from mom and dad? And there is more.

You think that God the Father who sits in heaven has this in his design for the times? When even his son said

Matthew 18:6​

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
and

Matthew 18:10​

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Funny that, isnt it.... " one of these little ones who believe in me" ... according to most churches today they are not to be baptised because of their inability to believe.... Think about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No this was never in a plan of God's ... it was permitted by Him in His battle with Satan and a sure sign the end is rapidly approaching

 

[Josheb]

How did they chose if they have no free will?

They had volitional agency, not an uncontrolled, unrestricted, and unlimited will.

Or, what did they choose?

Whatever they wanted within the controls, restrictions, and limitations of their condition.

 

[makesends]

makesends said:
Humans excluded from what you have not proven angels to have? All you have done is to assert that angels had free will. We don't know they had free will
We do know they chose.

How did they chose if they have no free will?
Or, what did they choose?

That seems obvious to me. Even dogs and giraffes choose. The fact that humans are marginally more sentient than animals is no proof of free will (whatever you mean by it).

makesends said:
Can you explain how, as far as we know, none of the fallen angels have repented,

Because it is not in the Holy Book?

Consider the following...........

While The Holy Book does not specifically address the issue of fallen angels having an opportunity to repent, but we can gain some insight from what the Holy Book does say.

First, Ezekiel 28:14 tells us Satan (Lucifer) was one of the highest angels, perhaps the highest . Lucifer...and all the angels...were continually in God’s presence and had knowledge of the glory of God. They had no excuse for rebelling against God and turning away from Him. They were not tempted.

Lucifer and the other angels rebelling against God despite what they knew was the utmost evil.

Most important ~ #2.... God did not provide a plan of redemption for the angels as He did for mankind. The fall of the human race necessitated an atoning sacrifice for sin, and God provided that sacrifice in Jesus Christ. In His grace, God redeemed the human race and brought glory to Himself.

No such sacrifice was planned for the angels. In addition, in 1 Tim 5:21 God referred to those angels who remain faithful to Him as His “elect angels” .

We know from the biblical doctrine of election that those whom God elects to salvation will be saved, and nothing can separate them from God’s love as we read in Romans 8: 38-39. Clearly, those angels who rebelled were not “elect angels” of God.

C. the Bible gives us no reason to believe that angels would repent even if God gave them the chance ... se 1 Peter 5:8. The fallen angels seem completely devoted to opposing God and attacking God’s people. The Bible says that the severity of God’s judgment varies according to how much knowledge a person possesses ....see Luke 12:48. The fallen angels, then, with the great knowledge they possessed, are greatly deserving of God’s wrath.

I think it far more important and interesting, rather then debate if they had been made with free will or just the ability to choose is WHY
they made the choice to follow Lucifer.

The point stands, that whether it is by their continued rebellion or not, we have no evidence of their repentance. Interestingly, though, you note (correctly) that no sacrifice was planned for the angels. Now how is THAT fair? Do we have any excuse, for which God should show us mercy?

makesends said:
nor have any of the righteous angels fallen away since then?

What proof do you have of this?

Interesting you split this from its context. I didn't claim to have proof. I said, "as far as we know", did I not?

makesends said:
Have they all chosen to not have freewill anymore?

Why would they lose it if the chose to stay and worship God?

According to the 'theories' corollary to libertarian free will, there is no pre-caused decision by the "free agent"; therefore, it is easily understandable that some would choose Christ and some reject Christ. So how do those angels who once chose God continue through the ages, and those who once chose rebellion ALL continue in rebellion? Doesn't sound very "free" to me.

makesends said:
What makes you think the world has run amuck? All things progress precisely as he determined they would, for the purposes that will be clear when we see him as he is. This life is not about us. It's not even about what we see in this life.

This is not even worth a comment....

But consider for one nano - moment .

Can you prove that before time (ours) that when Yahweh was drawing up His plans for how things would start and end on the ball of mud
we all walk on that it was not some masterful plan in a war with Lucifer/Satan and Himself?

God had no control over Lucifer.... period. Other then to cast him out of heaven to this world. To be god of this world.

2 Cor 4:3-4 tells us

3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [a]to those who are perishing, 4 in whose case the god of this [b]world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [c]so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God

Without free will who would be blinded? Or why would a choice need to be made?

You say the world is running as God intended... With tampons in the 4th grade boys bathrooms, and condoms in the girls a couple grades later?


How about when.. just a handful of years ago mothers were not taking their tots to drag shows, but were actually taping down their penises?
(instructions and products for doing so were available online) And the blocking of schools to tell parents when their daughters were going to have an abortion? And now the gender affirming education that is having even grade schoolers want to change their sex... and again the complicit schools help but keep it from mom and dad? And there is more.

You think that God the Father who sits in heaven has this in his design for the times? When even his son said

Matthew 18:6​

But whoever causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to have a great millstone fastened around his neck and to be drowned in the depth of the sea.
and

Matthew 18:10​

“See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven.

Funny that, isnt it.... " one of these little ones who believe in me" ... according to most churches today they are not to be baptised because of their inability to believe.... Think about that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No this was never in a plan of God's ... it was permitted by Him in His battle with Satan and a sure sign the end is rapidly approaching

Your god is not Omnipotent God. You said, "God had no control over Lucifer.... period. Other then to cast him out of heaven to this world. To be god of this world."

I think we are done talking.

 

[Rella]

Think it through.

The word free means "not controlled, restricted, or limited" by anything. If we apply the agreed upon definition to your sentence, then your sentence reads as follows...

It is unfounded and unreasonable to conclude that God did not instill "an uncontrolled, unrestricted, and/or unlimited" will into man in the first place.​

It is unfounded and unreasonable to conclude God did not install a free will that had absolutely no controls, restrictions, or limits.​

You cannot truly believe that is the case. If it was an unlimited will then it never would have been affected be sin at all. You agreed the human will exists only as long as God permits (even though that is not what I previously posted). God's ability to end the human will is a restriction, a limit. Post 343 also states an agreement ignorance limits the will, and acknowledges a lack of understanding all possible options is controlling, restricting, and/or limiting. Since God did not endow humans with omniscience (all-knowing knowledge) the inescapable conclusion is that God did NOT instill in humanity a free will, but instead instilled in humans a limited will, a will that is controlled, restricted, limited by the human's God's permission and the human's limited knowledge (or lack thereof).

No, it is an example of voluntary behavior, not autonomous behavior. Big difference. The word "autonomous" means having the freedom to govern itself or control its own affairs. You've already gone on record agreeing infirmity, addiction, God's permission, and ignorance all control, restrict, or limit the human will. A person can pursue personal goals only within their infirmity, sobriety, God's permission, and their knowledge. When any of the agreed upon conditions exist that person is not autonomous, and their will is not free.

Please do not start attacking me personally.

A "work around" would be unnecessary for an autonomous human whose will lacked any and all control, restriction, and/or limits.

Mmmmm..... they manage when they want to. So a person's want is a limit or restriction on their will?

Tell me again how a person can will themselves to survive a leap off a 1000-foot cliff. Seriously. I would like you to explain to me how that can happen because I took a 100-foot fall down a mountain and fractured my skull, traumatized both knees and suffered bruises and lacerations all over my body...... because the natural laws of physics God designed into creation took effect and I did not have a will free enough to cause my skull bone to crack the rocks instead of the other way around.

I volunteered working with combat veterans returning from Afghanistan and Iraq. If you can explain to me how a person can want the will to overcome the physics of a grenade, mortar, or improvised explosive device (IED) and prevent losing a limb then I will go the military and explain it to them. I'll take you with me and you can demonstrate whatever techniques you're employing. It'll make munitions obsolete! Wars might even end! There will certainly never be another handicap resulting from munitions. No more "work arounds"! It'll put the prosthetics industry out of business!

Would you please think through these claims before posting them. Try to identify the flaws before they are pointed out. Try anticipating the critics. Do not give them anything they can criticize.

What you believe and what you can prove may end up being two completely different matters but for the time being there are several internal contradictions in the posts I am reading.

Infirmities, addictions, ignorance, want, and God's permission control, restrict, limit the human will but there are work arounds for those experiencing the controls, restrictions, limits that would not otherwise be needed for an autonomous individual whose will is not controlled, restricted, or limited by anything.

Yes, because I am trying to move this conversation incrementally and logically from one single point to the next. The post was edited to save space and focus solely on the agreed upon content. You leaped ahead imposing your belief in work arounds and God's provision and your personal beliefs before you earned the foundation to do so.

And in the process, you contradicted yourself.

I'm sure you do not want me pointing out the contradictions. I'll have nothing to point to if the posts are impeccable. So back up.

Did God, the Designer, design any controls, restrictions, or limits into human life?

It's a yes or no question.

Yes. ONE! The number of years we would be alive. No one lives forever.

Other then that I do not see things as you do.

Oh, there is always the charge that no matter how much I might want to... going fishing all day in a rowbopat simply is not wise because of physical limitations of not having outdoor plumbing.

You have take the entire idea to new heights that are no applicable as to if I made a conscious choice to accept Jesus as my savior or to just ignore the evidence when presented to me.

Which I did.

But by your reasoning, Satan has/had no free will because he could not ascend above God.

So , unless we can contain the free.... meaning unbound, unbridle, not controlled, restricted, or limited" by anything to a specific subject
relating to the reason we both are on this forum then we need to stop.

By your expectations even God Yahweh... God the Father... who is bound by nothing has not free will... ( who would have stopped that in Him?)
because He cannot and will not lie. So even He has a stumbling block.

When I was born I was an accident. And I had to live under parent controls for much longer then is normal for a human being.

But at all times I knew that Jesus had died for my sins... ( and there were many)... so said the church and so said my parents.

I had zero freedom and I could well have fallen away from any faith or belief... but I did not want to.

My life was one that caused me to sneak around among other things and when I became 37 years old. I did the worse possible... for me...
and I gave myself over to a 180 repentance on most... not all things... and I chose.... not because anyone told me , but because I wanted to spent 24 straight years in an in depth growth to and for God.

This was my choice. And I never regretted it.

So while we agree that free is free... We do not agree what that free does for us.

 

[Rella]

If you have a definition of FREE WILL then just state it in 50 words or less. One time you gave 3 or 4 definitions. Another time you adjusted your definition and said something like the definition didn't apply to people after they're saved (as best I recall) ... JUST STATE YOUR DEFINITION IN 50 WORDS OR LESS ... @Josheb will take it from there I assume.

Example: My personal definition of FREE WILL is:

The ability to choice what I desire most at the time.

..... see how easy the was ... only took 11 words; I gave you 50 words.

My personal definition of FREE WILL is:

The ability to choose what I desire most at the time. And the ability to avoid that which is not profitable for growth.

 

[Rella]

They had volitional agency, not an uncontrolled, unrestricted, and unlimited will.

And you know this how?

Whatever they wanted within the controls, restrictions, and limitations of their condition.

 

[Rella]

makesends said:
Humans excluded from what you have not proven angels to have? All you have done is to assert that angels had free will. We don't know they had free will
We do know they chose.

That seems obvious to me. Even dogs and giraffes choose. The fact that humans are marginally more sentient than animals is no proof of free will (whatever you mean by it).

makesends said:
Can you explain how, as far as we know, none of the fallen angels have repented,

The point stands, that whether it is by their continued rebellion or not, we have no evidence of their repentance. Interestingly, though, you note (correctly) that no sacrifice was planned for the angels. Now how is THAT fair? Do we have any excuse, for which God should show us mercy?

makesends said:
nor have any of the righteous angels fallen away since then?

Interesting you split this from its context. I didn't claim to have proof. I said, "as far as we know", did I not?

makesends said:
Have they all chosen to not have freewill anymore?

According to the 'theories' corollary to libertarian free will, there is no pre-caused decision by the "free agent"; therefore, it is easily understandable that some would choose Christ and some reject Christ. So how do those angels who once chose God continue through the ages, and those who once chose rebellion ALL continue in rebellion? Doesn't sound very "free" to me.

makesends said:
What makes you think the world has run amuck? All things progress precisely as he determined they would, for the purposes that will be clear when we see him as he is. This life is not about us. It's not even about what we see in this life.

Your god is not Omnipotent God. You said, "God had no control over Lucifer.... period. Other then to cast him out of heaven to this world. To be god of this world."

I think we are done talking.

Thank you

 

[Arial]

How did they chose if they have no free will?
Or, what did they choose?

The ability to choose and free are not synonyms. The angels that fell obviously had the faculty of choice and so they could rebell, but the result shows their will was anything but free. Does the Bible say they fell of their own free will? Does it say they rebelled against God because He gave them free will? All it says is that they rebelled and suffered the consequences. To bring the concept of a free will into the matter is in no way necessary and in fact, distracts from any God centered message that is given in any Scripture. That is how I view the matter.

Just look how it detracts from edification and actual Bible study. The endless debate over what is free will and the countless definitions of it, are about who? Mankind. Man's abilities, man's freedom (as it is directed away from God usually), man's thoughts, man's wisdom. Where is God in all of that?

 

[Josheb]

Did God, the Designer, design any controls, restrictions, or limits into human life?

It's a yes or no question.

Yes. ONE! The number of years we would be alive. No one lives forever. Other then that I do not see things as you do.

That is an incorrect answer, you do not see things as God stated them in His word, and I'd appreciate it if the discussion wasn't constantly made about our difference or our persons.

It is true that God has set the number of years a person lives, but that is not the only control, restriction, or limit God designed into our lives.

Acts 17:26
From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands.

God appointed every single human ever made a time in history during which they would live and the land(s) in which they would do so. It was marked. Many people think they can choose to visit any land they want but their choices are limited to what God has already marked according to Luke and Paul . Our decisions to travel are predicated on our material wealth. Poor people cannot travel far from home because they do not have the resources to do so. The parable of the talents teaches us that some are given a little, while others are given much more. What they do with it is at their liberty but they are not free of any and all controls, restrictions, or limits. The person who has only one talent has only one talent and s/he is not free to spend more than what was given. S/he has liberty, not freedom, to spend or invest the money given as s/he likes but even if they become wealthier than Solomon, they are not free to travel to places God has marked.

More important and germane to our discussion.....

God also designed a multitude of causal relationships into creation that have decided control, restriction, or limits on the human's will. The most glaring example is "you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die." We were once free to eat from any tree in the garden but one. The minute that tree's fruit was eaten death ensued. No humans has an option to eat and not die. There is no freedom to eat and not die. The rule, "Do not eat..." is a control, a restriction, a limit on the human will. A person has the liberty to eat and suffer the consequences, but not the freedom to eat unrestricted. A person has a volitional agency to choose withn the already-existing controls, restrictions, and limits of God's design in creation.

A person cannot jump off a 1000-foot cliff and will themselves to survive the sudden stop at the end of the fall. They cannot freely will themselves to defy the physics of creation. They cannot freely will themselves to defy the design aspect of creation and those designs include when a person is born, where a person is born and where they live, how much material provision they receive, and their not being able to disobey God without experiencing the preset consequences of that decision.

You said infirmity has a controlling, restricting, limiting effect on the human will and I agree.


What is the single greatest infirmity any human has ever experienced?


Can you name it one word?

 

[Josheb]

And you know this how?

Because it is plainly stated in God's word in many different ways.


The very first time we read of a human's God-made control, restriction, or limit is in Genesis 2:16-17

Genesis 2:16-17
The LORD God commanded the man, saying, “From any tree of the garden you may eat freely; but from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat from it you will surely die.

Adam and Eve had liberty to eat from any tree in the garden without adverse consequence but one. There was a restriction, a limitation on their will and behavior pertaining to that one tree. If they ate from that tree they would die. They were NOT free to eat and not experience the consequence of their disobedience. They had the liberty to disobey God, the volitional agency to do so but they were not without control, restriction, or limit should that be their choice. Adan and Eve both disobey God and by doing so they bring sin upon themselves in a lethal and enslaving manner and the bring sin and death into the entire world. God then discharged them from Eden. They were not free to stay. They were subjected to control, restriction, limits that no one had freedom to allude until God changed the control, restriction, or limit.

If you can, please explain to me how I could will my skull to break every rock it hit when I fell down the mountain and not the other way around. Explain how Adam could will his skull to break God's command and not the commandment break him when he fell.


The very next occasion we read about the distinction between volitional agency and a lack of freedom is when God exhorts Cain.

Genesis 4:6-7
Then the LORD said to Cain, "Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it."

God lays out a simple dichotomy: Either do well and experience an uplifted countenance, or don't do well and sin will have its way with you. Those were the only two options available to Cain. He was NOT free to kill his brother and not experience the already established consequences. There were controls, restrictions, limits that existed and they were not of his choosing. His only choice was to live within them or experience the adverse consequences of trying to defy them.

Every single choice God gives every single person in the Bible comes with controls, restrictions, and limits. Humans have volitional agency, but humans are not free; they do not live without controls, restrictions, and limits on the will.

You said infirmity was a limit on the human will and I agree.


What is the greatest infirmity any human (apart from Jesus) has ever experienced?


.

 

[fastfredy0]

You {Rella} agreed the human will exists only as long as God permits

My analysis:
.... God knows what you are going to do (God is all knowing) .... and if God O.K.s what you are going to do then you are permitted to do it.

.... so by way of example:
God decreed that He only wants a coin to be heads over the next 10 tosses
God lets you toss the coin and the first 5 times you get head and God permits it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you toss 5 more heads that God permits it.


So, the end result is God got what He decreed and you got what you "freely" wanted. Yeah, I can agree to that formulation of "free will".

 

[Josheb]

My analysis:
.... God knows what you are going to do (God is all knowing) .... and if God O.K.s what you are going to do then you are permitted to do it.

.... so by way of example:
God decreed that He only wants a coin to be heads over the next 10 tosses
God lets you toss the coin and the first 5 times you get head and God permits it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you toss 5 more heads that God permits it.


So, the end result is God got what He decreed and you got what you "freely" wanted. Yeah, I can agree to that formulation of "free will".

That's good but I will suggest there are three, not two, options.

1. God causes the coin toss and the results of the toss.
2. God prevents the coin toss and the results of the toss.
3. God allows the coin toss and determines its results as He so chooses.

The toss of a coin is a particularly curious paradigm because I do not know anyone who thinks s/he can will a coin flipping in the air to his or her desired outcome. We waste a lot of time thinking what we will is a simple dialect of a single dichotomy (one of only two options). Thinking God only determines people's choices or only takes a laissez faire idleness are two perverted ends of reality. It's said we can thank those of our own ilk for exacerbating the problem. Too many Calvinists think strict determinism is representative or orthodox Calvinism and too many would-be Arminian think autonomy is orthodox Arminianism. Each position is an extreme end opposite one another and have little correlation to the scriptural middle.

Another way to look at it is the proverbial "action figure" or "puppet theology Cals are often wrongly accused of. Any god can make an action figure. I can make action figures! pfffft! There's nothing particularly God-like about that. Any god can make action figures that do only what they are made to do exactly as they are made to do it. That god is not God. It is a much, much greater God who can make sentient creatures with real volitional agency that operate dynamically within preset conditions..... where every single choice and every single action made with complete liberty somehow conspires to make the eternally prescribed outcome occur.

Let's face it: There was one, single, sole, solitary fixed beginning and no matter what happens in between that beginning and the end.... the end is also fixed, singular, and solitary.

There are examples of real choices given by God to humans (sinless and sinful) in scripture. There are also many seeming choices that the individual is not free to not make. When the 400 years of enslavement were up it wasn't going to matter one bit who was Pharoah. Whoever that guy was, that guy was going to suffer, suffer egregiously, lose his nation's wealth and have it taken off by the slaves he'd lost. Wouldn't have mattered whether his name was Bill, or Sally, or Gleekernabenshnikel. Every single decision that guy was going to make was necessarily going to culminate in the Hebrews being set free by God. The same holds true for Moses. The same holds true for Cyrus, king of Persia. He was named by name before he was born! There are also choices described where none are real. Cain is told he must resist sin but God already knows what will happen. God already knows Cain will not resist sin but will, instead, be mastered by it. It's not a real choice from God's perspective but Cain who is thinking, willing, choosing, and acting within the already existing conditions of sin, rejection, pride, admonition and exhortation (and let's not forget the pleasure sin brings for a season) that controlled, restricted, limited his choices. He was neither free nor autonomous.

Jesus was free. There wasn't a single control, restriction, or limit on his will other than those to which he freely chose to submit. He could have summoned legions of angels at any time or simply let the angels have a day off and spoke sinful humanity out of existence with a word. We could never do that and because it is not within our power to do so we are limited. We cannot choose what we lack the power to accomplish, and every single one of us know it. We cannot jump off the 1000-foot cliff and will ourselves to survive the sudden stop at the bottom. Neither can we will ourselves to jump off the cliff of sinlessness into the immeasurable abyss of sin and will ourselves to survive the near-instant sudden stop at the end (we "fall" very far in a very brief amount of time).

• Pharoah never got to toss the coin.
• Moses got to toss the coin but did not make it into the promised land (although he was perfected in the Church).
• Judas got to own a coin but never toss it.
• Saul of Tarsus, like Moses, had been prepared for the coin toss and its already decided outcome before he was born.

The chief reason for the false dichotomy is we spend too much time arguing over the degree to which God is tyrant and not enough time on the despotism of sin. Sin does not care what you think, want, choose, or do; it corrupts and defiles everything. The only one sovereign over sin is God.

 

[makesends]

My analysis:
.... God knows what you are going to do (God is all knowing) .... and if God O.K.s what you are going to do then you are permitted to do it.

.... so by way of example:
God decreed that He only wants a coin to be heads over the next 10 tosses
God lets you toss the coin and the first 5 times you get head and God permits it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you are about to toss a tail, but God doesn't permit it ...
Then you toss 5 more heads that God permits it.


So, the end result is God got what He decreed and you got what you "freely" wanted. Yeah, I can agree to that formulation of "free will".

I can't. I intuitively know that every detail that comes to pass is caused by God, (whether through means or directly), FOR A PURPOSE. Not only are there no rogue events, but every tiniest detail of every event is purposed for an end result —Heaven.

To me, to say that he merely "allows" things is to give credence to the notion of libertarian free will. Also, I don't recall ever reading it in scripture, though there are plenty of places where he does allow, but with no positive indication that the event he allows was spontaneous by the creature.

 

[fastfredy0]

I can't. I intuitively know that every detail that comes to pass is caused by God, (whether through means or directly), FOR A PURPOSE. Not only are there no rogue events, but every tiniest detail of every event is purposed for an end result —Heaven.

Total agreement.

To me, to say that he merely "allows" things is to give credence to the notion of libertarian free will.

Total agreement. I do not think God "permits/grant permissions/allows" anything though that is a minority opinion. I was using @Rella's definition which contains "permits" as the basis of my example of the coin:

You {Rella] agreed the human will exists only as long as God permits

My stance is that God is the cause of everything. God sometimes uses secondary causes like I use the secondary cause of a hammer to strike a nail.

My proof syllogism follows:
Premise 1: God knows all things and said knowledge is immutable
Premise 2: From nothing nothing comes.
Conclusion: At one time there was nothing but God and therefore no source of knowledge save Himself and therefore all future events must be determined by Him.
Only thing I've heard that might disrupt this theory is God is eternal and outside of time and the above is time sensitive.

God could not foreknow that things would be, unless he had decreed they should be. He cannot “look into the future”, so to speak, to find out what will happen for that would be knowledge acquired from learning; God is immutable and omniscient and therefore cannot learn. Furthermore, from nothing nothing comes and since before creation nothing existed, all knowledge must come from God and the source of His knowledge is His wisdom and ability to cause all things. If God's knowledge of his creatures were derived from the creatures by the impression of anything upon him, as there is upon us, he could not know from eternity, because from eternity there was no actual existence of anything but himself; and therefore there could not be any images shot out from anything, because there was not anything in being but God. Stephen Charnock

Men Controlled by God – Scripture Verses ​

• Genesis 45:5 Now do not be distressed or angry with yourselves because you sold me [Joseph] here, for God sent me ahead of you to save life and preserve our family.
• Exodus 3:21 I will give this people favor in the sight of the Egyptians
• Exodus 4:11 The Lord said to him, “Who has made man’s mouth? Or who makes the mute or the deaf, or the seeing or the blind? Is it not I, the Lord? 12 Now then go, and I, even I, will be with your mouth, and will teach you what you shall say.”
• Exodus 14:4 And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them. But I will gain glory for myself through Pharaoh and all his army, and the Egyptians will know that I am the LORD.
• Exodus 14:17 “And I indeed will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them. So I will gain honor over Pharaoh and over all his army, his chariots, and his horsemen.”
• Numbers 22:38 “Have I now any power at all to say anything? The word that God puts in my mouth, that shall I speak.”
• Deuteronomy 29:2 Moses summoned all Israel and said to them, “You have seen all that the Lord did before your eyes in the land of Egypt to Pharaoh, to all his servants, and to all his land; 3 the great trials [of Pharaoh] which your eyes have seen, the signs and those great wonders. 4 Yet to this day the Lord has not given you a heart and mind to understand, nor eyes to see, nor ears to hear. [again, we are puppets … it is God the must give you a heart and mind to understand. Thus, this understanding is not self-generated]
• Deuteronomy 32:39 See now that I, I am He, and there is no god beside Me; I kill and I make alive, I wound and I heal, and there is none who can deliver out of My hand.
• 1 Kings 12:15 So the king did not listen to the people; for the situation was from the Lord, so that He might fulfill His word which He spoke through Ahijah the Shilonite to Jeroboam the son of Nebat.
• 1 Kings 22:20 The Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab to go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’ And one said this, while another said that. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘How?’ And he said, ‘I will go out and be a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ Then the Lord said, ‘You are to entice him and also succeed. Go and do so.’ 23 Now then, behold, the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouth of all these prophets; and the Lord has proclaimed disaster against you.”

I could list another 70-100 verses.

Hebrews 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.

 

[makesends]

My stance is that God is the cause of everything. God sometimes uses secondary causes like I use the secondary cause of a hammer to strike a nail.

My proof syllogism follows:
Premise 1: God knows all things and said knowledge is immutable
Premise 2: From nothing nothing comes.
Conclusion: At one time there was nothing but God and therefore no source of knowledge save Himself and therefore all future events must be determined by Him.
Only thing I've heard that might disrupt this theory is God is eternal and outside of time and the above is time sensitive.

I can't see how that disrupts it at all! If time resulted from God's causation (and it does, according to your conclusion) it is not self-existent fact. The fact God is "outside of" time does not mean it is not dependent on him for its being/ definition/ influences/ effects.

The Premises and Conclusion are only "time sensitive" in OUR minds —God's ways are not ours. You have stated well the way that WE must think of these things, being driven by, and operating according to, our temporal mindset.

The above facts you tried to show are not time sensitive, they are only written that way, for lack of language that describes God's ways.

What you showed and consider time-sensitive may even be taken as causation-sequence, and only incidental to time-flow at best. But even that is OUR thinking —OUR necessary logic. (Witness the difficulty Quantum Physicists have understanding their own theories!)

 

[fastfredy0]

I can't see how that disrupts it at all! If time resulted from God's causation (and it does, according to your conclusion) it is not self-existent fact. The fact God is "outside of" time does not mean it is not dependent on him for its being/ definition/ influences/ effects.

Agreed.

The Premises and Conclusion are only "time sensitive" in OUR minds —God's ways are not ours.

Agreed.

The above facts you tried to show are not time sensitive, they are only written that way, for lack of language that describes God's ways.

Hmmmm ... God created time and therefore is before time.... but the word "before" is irrelevant to a Being that is outside of time. Maybe ... I don't understand all the facets of ETERNITY.

Premise1a: God is all knowing and cannot change per scripture
ConclusionA: God cannot learn

Premise1b: Man can self determine choices (conjecture)
Premise2b: God would learn
ConclusionB: Premise1b is false.
Hmmm....now that gets rid of the time sensitive/eternity issue ...

What you showed and consider time-sensitive may even be taken as causation-sequence, and only incidental to time-flow at best.

I like that .... you da man!


Now, can you tell me how much BITCOIN is going up in next year please?

 

[Josheb]

Total agreement.


Total agreement. I do not think God "permits/grant permissions/allows" anything though that is a minority opinion. I was using @Rella's definition which contains "permits" as the basis of my example of the coin:



My stance is that God is the cause of everything.

Yes, He is the uncaused cause. However, according to the Westminster Confession of Faith, the first cause of creation that was ordained from eternity did no violence to the human will or the contingency of secondary causes (see Article 3.1). In other words, when correctly understood monergism implicitly asserts and affirms human volitional agency, the existence of secondary causes, and secondary causes having contingencies.

And I wonder whether @Rella knows that. Misrepresentations are quite common (on both sides of the debate ).

God sometimes uses secondary causes like I use the secondary cause of a hammer to strike a nail................

Men Controlled by God – Scripture Verses.....​

Hebrews 11:36 For from Him [all things originate] and through Him [all things live and exist] and to Him are all things [directed]. To Him be glory and honor forever! Amen.

Yep.