FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

[makesends]

No again it is the way you think you understand what I was saying.
Just as the nation was his chosen they still had to enter into the covenant he made with them. It is the same with those he chose in Christ we still have to enter into the covenant relationship. He sends out the call we accept very simple.

Then why bring the general call to the whole world into it? You are conflating categories again.

 

[Arial]

@Arial Sorry for the double quote I messed up the first quote box and couldn't delete it.

No problem. I will delete the double quote.

 

[Arial]

You asked "Where does it say that he chose to save man by subjecting his will to the will of man"?

All through the bible it say believe the gospel he that believes believe my words. See he sent the gospel call out to the whole world and ask that we believe his words. John 3:16 for one but the bible is full of these verses. 2 Peter 3:9

Show me one scripture that speaks of "believing", "repenting", "all who come to me" or any other salvific verse that has the word "choose" in it. It is merely being implied and inserted from a presuppositional position.

It is a new (relative) concept that came into popularity after church councils, and synods convening to hash out what was heretical and what was biblical, ceased to exist. You will not find Jesus or any of the apostles merely offering the gospel or stating it is received through choosing.

What do they say? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Do you believe that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life? Sure, you do. That is all it says. The ones who have eternal life are the ones who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness but is patient toward you no wishing that nay should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

We have gone over this passage at least twice already. So, you are simply back to repeating yourself and the time for that is drawing to a close. The context of that passage identifies the "you", the "any" and the "all" as the elect. If it does not but means all people without exception, then it makes no sense at all as it contradicts reality. Not all are saved, and the Bible constantly makes that clear. And God is not sovereign. To say that he sovereignly chose to give all men the opportunity to choose heaven or hell, so he is still sovereign is a nonsense statement. It would still make him not sovereign.

Now deal with the rest of my post that you ignored---the part that pertains to the Doctrine of God. Post #293

If God IS all his attributes and does not simply possess them as humans possess attributes; and if he is immutable, that is unchanging, in his attributes, i.e. his love never fluctuates, his justice never fluctuates, one attribute does not override or take precedence at the expense of another attribute and his will never changes because it is who he is. Contrasted to humans in the same respect may hate tomorrow what they love today and so on and so forth. If that is the case concerning God how can he be sovereign over all his creation and decide in some instance to hand that sovereignty of salvation over to the creatures will?

 

[BillyBob65]

Then why bring the general call to the whole world into it? You are conflating categories again.

You are really missing what I am trying to point out from scripture. The scriptures say God wants all to come to repentance that all is all mankind the whole world. The bible doubles down on it with John 3:16 for God so loved the world all mankind. Yes God loves all mankind but he chose to send out a gospel call so those that loved him would respond to his grace. He doesn't want any to perish but he is a just God. He has to have balance. Those that love him and respond to his will are his those that reject him that love their sinful life more will be punished. God does not want to have to punish them for he loves them and calls them as well but he is a just God.

It is the way God put things in motion it is his will That is why he is longsuffering so we all can respond to the call. He is patiently waiting for all to chose him all the well knowing it will not be all for broad is the gate but narrow the way.

 

[Arial]

No again it is the way you think you understand what I was saying.
Just as the nation was his chosen they still had to enter into the covenant he made with them. It is the same with those he chose in Christ we still have to enter into the covenant relationship. He sends out the call we accept very simple.

God brought the Israelites into covenant with him. They did not choose him---he chose them. Same with the NC. God---the SUPERIOR--- the COVENANT MAKER brings people into covenant with him. They do not choose him, he chooses them.

 

[Arial]

Those that love him and respond to his will are his those that reject him that love their sinful life more will be punished. God does not want to have to punish them for he loves them and calls them as well but he is a just God.

Actually, the Bible says no one loves him. Romans 1,2,3. And you have love and justice, equal attributes, of God at odds with each other.

 

[BillyBob65]

Show me one scripture that speaks of "believing", "repenting", "all who come to me" or any other salvific verse that has the word "choose" in it. It is merely being implied and inserted from a presuppositional position.

It is a new (relative) concept that came into popularity after church councils, and synods convening to hash out what was heretical and what was biblical, ceased to exist. You will not find Jesus or any of the apostles merely offering the gospel or stating it is received through choosing.

What do they say? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Do you believe that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life? Sure, you do. That is all it says. The ones who have eternal life are the ones who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness but is patient toward you no wishing that nay should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

We have gone over this passage at least twice already. So, you are simply back to repeating yourself and the time for that is drawing to a close. The context of that passage identifies the "you", the "any" and the "all" as the elect. If it does not but means all people without exception, then it makes no sense at all as it contradicts reality. Not all are saved, and the Bible constantly makes that clear. And God is not sovereign. To say that he sovereignly chose to give all men the opportunity to choose heaven or hell, so he is still sovereign is a nonsense statement. It would still make him not sovereign.

Now deal with the rest of my post that you ignored---the part that pertains to the Doctrine of God. Post #293

Show me one scripture that speaks of "believing", "repenting", "all who come to me" or any other salvific verse that has the word "choose" in it. It is merely being implied and inserted from a presuppositional position.

It is a new (relative) concept that came into popularity after church councils, and synods convening to hash out what was heretical and what was biblical, ceased to exist. You will not find Jesus or any of the apostles merely offering the gospel or stating it is received through choosing.

What do they say? John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

Do you believe that whoever believes in Jesus will have eternal life? Sure, you do. That is all it says. The ones who have eternal life are the ones who believe.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness but is patient toward you no wishing that nay should perish, but that all should reach repentance.

We have gone over this passage at least twice already. So, you are simply back to repeating yourself and the time for that is drawing to a close. The context of that passage identifies the "you", the "any" and the "all" as the elect. If it does not but means all people without exception, then it makes no sense at all as it contradicts reality. Not all are saved, and the Bible constantly makes that clear. And God is not sovereign. To say that he sovereignly chose to give all men the opportunity to choose heaven or hell, so he is still sovereign is a nonsense statement. It would still make him not sovereign.

Now deal with the rest of my post that you ignored---the part that pertains to the Doctrine of God. Post #293

To believe is action meaning you respond to the call in the manner is which was given as in Acts 2. The gospel is preached and the how to respond is given but of course you see it different because of your own reasoning. No matter how many times we go over this it does not change the meaning or wording of the scriptures but how we understand but we have to really understand the truth that is revealed and one or both are having trouble with this.

So believing is the choosing. We either believe the call God calls us with and respond accordingly or refuse his grace it is up to us God sent the call and wants us to accept.

It is not new but was the same from the foundation of the world it is the reformers that changed it to fit their understanding.

Yes I believe the ones that believe have eternal life they choose to accept the call of God and by accepting (obeying) become in Christ the election of God (The Chosen The Call Out)

See you are not understanding me because of your bias. I did not say that 2 Peter 3:9 "means all people without exception" that is your thinking I said it but it is not what I said. I said God is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.” Meaning God wants all to come to repentance all the well knowing that all will not but gives plenty of time for the heart to change and accept his grace. This is why I keep pointing you to this not only do you not get it as recorded you can't understand my explanation because of your bias.

I already answered your post #293 what directly are you wanting answered.

 

[BillyBob65]

Actually, the Bible says no one loves him. Romans 1,2,3. And you have love and justice, equal attributes, of God at odds with each other.

The ones that repent and are baptized then meaning they came to love and trust and obey. The bible puts love and justice at odd if you love me you will keep my commandments if you reject me well you know the rest. God rewards them that diligently seek him and punish those that reject him simple bible teaching.

 

[Arial]

Can you really not see that God chose Jesus to be the way we become his. The bible clearly teaches we are the election through Jesus by answering the gospel call for no one can come to God with out going through Christ.

We have been over that before too and it does not address the post you are responding to.

 

[BillyBob65]

We have been over that before too and it does not address the post you are responding to.

well thats your view to me it does

 

[Arial]

I already answered your post #293 what directly are you wanting answered.

I quoted what I want DEALT with--not just answered---so why are you asking as though I hadn't done that. Here it is again:

If God IS all his attributes and does not simply possess them as humans possess attributes; and if he is immutable, that is unchanging, in his attributes, i.e. his love never fluctuates, his justice never fluctuates, one attribute does not override or take precedence at the expense of another attribute and his will never changes because it is who he is. Contrasted to humans in the same respect may hate tomorrow what they love today and so on and so forth. If that is the case concerning God how can he be sovereign over all his creation and decide in some instance to hand that sovereignty of salvation over to the creatures will?

I am not continuing this conversation so you can do nothing but repeat your position. I specifically move the track away from that by suggesting we examine our respective premises. My overarching premise, the one to which all else must agree, is the Doctrine of God. You claim that is your premise too.

The above is a series of statements and questions pertaining to the DoG as he reveals himself that I made. If you think I am persisting in this just to win an argument to harass you, you are wrong. It is intensely goal specific to arrive at the same goal you claim to have. Let Scripture determine what is true.

What I have received instead is your interpretation of Scripture given as truth, even though mine is different than yours, repeated over and over and over. That is claiming your authority over interpretation (just like the pope) not scripture interprets scripture.

So, answer the questions presented in that post.

 

[BillyBob65]

I quoted what I want DEALT with--not just answered---so why are you asking as though I hadn't done that. Here it is again:

I am not continuing this conversation so you can do nothing but repeat your position. I specifically move the track away from that by suggesting we examine our respective premises. My overarching premise, the one to which all else must agree, is the Doctrine of God. You claim that is your premise too.

The above is a series of statements and questions pertaining to the DoG as he reveals himself that I made. If you think I am persisting in this just to win an argument to harass you, you are wrong. It is intensely goal specific to arrive at the same goal you claim to have. Let Scripture determine what is true.

What I have received instead is your interpretation of Scripture given as truth, even though mine is different than yours, repeated over and over and over. That is claiming your authority over interpretation (just like the pope) not scripture interprets scripture.

So, answer the questions presented in that post.

That question is really about three biblical truths and how they fit together:
1. God’s nature does not change
2. God is absolutely sovereign
3.Humans are truly responsible

The Bible affirms all three at the same time, not one at the expense of another.

God is His attributes and is unchanging scripture teaches this clearly.

God does not change: “For I am the LORD, I change not.” – Malachi 3:6

“With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” – James 1:17

“God is love.” – 1 John 4:8

God is righteous and just: “All his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity.” – Deuteronomy 32:4

So yes—God doesn’t fluctuate like humans. His love, justice, holiness, and mercy are perfectly united in His nature.

God is sovereign over all things scripture also makes this clear.

“He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.” – Daniel 4:35

“Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.” – Psalms 115:3

God never loses sovereignty. Nothing happens outside His will.

But Scripture ALSO says humans are responsible to choose

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” – Joshua 24:15

“Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” – Revelation 22:17

“Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” – John 5:40

God holds people accountable for their response to Him. So the Bible teaches both:

God rules absolutely. Humans are responsible for believing or rejecting.

God has NOT handed sovereignty over to man this is the key point. God does not lose sovereignty when He allows human choice. Instead, human choice exists because God sovereignly willed it to exist.

“Him… being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified.” – Acts 2:23

Jesus’ crucifixion was: God’s sovereign plan,

God has NOT handed sovereignty over to man

This is the key point.

God does not lose sovereignty when He allows human choice.

Instead, human choice exists because God sovereignly willed it to exist.

Example:

“Him… being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified.” – Acts 2:23

Jesus’ crucifixion was: God’s sovereign plan, Done by human free choice. Both are true.

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD… he turneth it whithersoever he will.” – Proverbs 21:1
God can rule over human decisions without destroying responsibility. Done by human free choice
Both are true.

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD… he turneth it whithersoever he will.” – Proverbs 21:1
God can rule over human decisions without destroying responsibility.

God’s unchanging nature includes His decision to give commands and invitations God’s will is eternal.

If He eternally wills: to command repentance to offer salvation to judge unbelief then that does not change His nature—it expresses it.

“God… now commandeth all men every where to repent.” – Acts 17:30

This command doesn’t mean God surrendered sovereignty.
It means He sovereignly ordained the means by which salvation comes.

Scripture never says God hands salvation over to man’s will instead it says salvation involves BOTH:

God’s work
“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do.” – Philippians 2:13

Man’s response
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” – Philippians 2:12

God works in us so that we will.

God’s attributes do not conflict God’s love, justice, mercy, and sovereignty meet perfectly in Christ.
“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” – Psalms 85:10

At the cross: God’s justice punished sin God’s love saved sinners without contradiction.

God’s sovereignty is so great that He can: create real moral creatures, hold them accountable, accomplish His purposes through their choices without ever changing or losing control. That’s not weakness—it’s supreme power.

God has not handed salvation over to man’s will. Instead: God sovereignly decided that salvation would come through faith and obedience, and He works through that process without violating His own nature.

 

[Arial]

That question is really about three biblical truths and how they fit together:
1. God’s nature does not change
2. God is absolutely sovereign
3.Humans are truly responsible

The Bible affirms all three at the same time, not one at the expense of another.

God is His attributes and is unchanging scripture teaches this clearly.

God does not change: “For I am the LORD, I change not.” – Malachi 3:6

“With whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.” – James 1:17

“God is love.” – 1 John 4:8

God is righteous and just: “All his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity.” – Deuteronomy 32:4

So yes—God doesn’t fluctuate like humans. His love, justice, holiness, and mercy are perfectly united in His nature.

God is sovereign over all things scripture also makes this clear.

“He doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth.” – Daniel 4:35

“Our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.” – Psalms 115:3

God never loses sovereignty. Nothing happens outside His will.

But Scripture ALSO says humans are responsible to choose

“Choose you this day whom ye will serve.” – Joshua 24:15

“Whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.” – Revelation 22:17

“Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.” – John 5:40

God holds people accountable for their response to Him. So the Bible teaches both:

God rules absolutely. Humans are responsible for believing or rejecting.

God has NOT handed sovereignty over to man this is the key point. God does not lose sovereignty when He allows human choice. Instead, human choice exists because God sovereignly willed it to exist.

“Him… being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified.” – Acts 2:23

Jesus’ crucifixion was: God’s sovereign plan,

God has NOT handed sovereignty over to man

This is the key point.

God does not lose sovereignty when He allows human choice.

Instead, human choice exists because God sovereignly willed it to exist.

Example:

“Him… being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified.” – Acts 2:23

Jesus’ crucifixion was: God’s sovereign plan, Done by human free choice. Both are true.

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD… he turneth it whithersoever he will.” – Proverbs 21:1
God can rule over human decisions without destroying responsibility. Done by human free choice
Both are true.

“The king’s heart is in the hand of the LORD… he turneth it whithersoever he will.” – Proverbs 21:1
God can rule over human decisions without destroying responsibility.

God’s unchanging nature includes His decision to give commands and invitations God’s will is eternal.

If He eternally wills: to command repentance to offer salvation to judge unbelief then that does not change His nature—it expresses it.

“God… now commandeth all men every where to repent.” – Acts 17:30

This command doesn’t mean God surrendered sovereignty.
It means He sovereignly ordained the means by which salvation comes.

Scripture never says God hands salvation over to man’s will instead it says salvation involves BOTH:

God’s work
“It is God which worketh in you both to will and to do.” – Philippians 2:13

Man’s response
“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” – Philippians 2:12

God works in us so that we will.

God’s attributes do not conflict God’s love, justice, mercy, and sovereignty meet perfectly in Christ.
“Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other.” – Psalms 85:10

At the cross: God’s justice punished sin God’s love saved sinners without contradiction.

God’s sovereignty is so great that He can: create real moral creatures, hold them accountable, accomplish His purposes through their choices without ever changing or losing control. That’s not weakness—it’s supreme power.

God has not handed salvation over to man’s will. Instead: God sovereignly decided that salvation would come through faith and obedience, and He works through that process without violating His own nature.

Wow. You have changed subjects mid-stream, presented a number of categories all as one category, talked in circles, quoted scriptures but no exposition or exegesis, produced contradictions and conflations, never cohered anything. My head is spinning; it was like being put in the midst of a whirlwind. I will have to deal with it in the morning.

 

[BillyBob65]

Wow. You have changed subjects mid-stream, presented a number of categories all as one category, talked in circles, quoted scriptures but no exposition or exegesis, never cohered anything. My head is spinning, it was like being put in the midst of a whirlwind. I will have to deal with it in the morning.

Will be waiting to hear from you.

 

[makesends]

You are really missing what I am trying to point out from scripture. The scriptures say God wants all to come to repentance that all is all mankind the whole world. The bible doubles down on it with John 3:16 for God so loved the world all mankind. Yes God loves all mankind but he chose to send out a gospel call so those that loved him would respond to his grace. He doesn't want any to perish but he is a just God. He has to have balance. Those that love him and respond to his will are his those that reject him that love their sinful life more will be punished. God does not want to have to punish them for he loves them and calls them as well but he is a just God.

Ignoring for now your not dealing with the charge of conflating (collapsing, confusing) categories, I'll deal with what you are saying here.

You already know, and continue to ignore what @Arial has said, what I have said and what I think one or two others here have said, that God wanting all to come to repentance, contextually cannot mean 'the whole world'.

The context of John 3:16, on the other hand, is not ostensibly, or forcefully, about the Jew-Gentile question. But, that it could indicate that he loves the World in such a way as to give his Son, does not imply, except in some English versions (maybe in other languages too—I don't know—but not in the Greek), that there is any question who will believe. The subjunctive mood does not imply that it is up to who-knows-whoever to choose, but rather, it posits the purpose of him giving his Son, so that all those believing will have everlasting life. Take a look, and stop ignoring this. Defeat it if you must, but restating your use of it does nothing for your argument: John 3:16 Interlinear: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.

It is the way God put things in motion it is his will That is why he is longsuffering so we all can respond to the call. He is patiently waiting for all to chose him all the well knowing it will not be all for broad is the gate but narrow the way.

Who is the "we all" that "can respond to the call."?

You are aware, are you not, that you are making God out to be reactionary, rather than primary in the direction of his creation? You are placing the will of man above the will of God.

 

[BillyBob65]

Ignoring for now your not dealing with the charge of conflating (collapsing, confusing) categories, I'll deal with what you are saying here.

You already know, and continue to ignore what @Arial has said, what I have said and what I think one or two others here have said, that God wanting all to come to repentance, contextually cannot mean 'the whole world'.

The context of John 3:16, on the other hand, is not ostensibly, or forcefully, about the Jew-Gentile question. But, that it could indicate that he loves the World in such a way as to give his Son, does not imply, except in some English versions (maybe in other languages too—I don't know—but not in the Greek), that there is any question who will believe. The subjunctive mood does not imply that it is up to who-knows-whoever to choose, but rather, it posits the purpose of him giving his Son, so that all those believing will have everlasting life. Take a look, and stop ignoring this. Defeat it if you must, but restating your use of it does nothing for your argument: John 3:16 Interlinear: for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave, that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during.


Who is the "we all" that "can respond to the call."?

You are aware, are you not, that you are making God out to be reactionary, rather than primary in the direction of his creation? You are placing the will of man above the will of God.

that God wanting all to come to repentance, contextually cannot mean 'the whole world'.

why because you and a few others say so even though it is exactly what is recorded . It like you say baptism in the name of Jesus Christ can't mean for the remission of sin even though that is exactly what was written then you want me to trust in your theory?

I have dealt with it just because I am not signing your song does not mean I have not dealt with it. You just don't like my answer because it does not align with your view but that does not mean that I am the one not seeing clearly. You are judging me with bias as you say I am doing but you have not proved your point of view because the bible says God calls mankind not hand picks them. There are many many scriptures that say God calls men through the gospel and that is how he adds to the church. Np where can you point to a scripture that says God only sends the gospel to a handful he picked and not all have a chance for the calling.

 

[makesends]

why because you and a few others say so even though it is exactly what is recorded . It like you say baptism in the name of Jesus Christ can't mean for the remission of sin even though that is exactly what was written then you want me to trust in your theory?

I have dealt with it just because I am not signing your song does not mean I have not dealt with it. You just don't like my answer because it does not align with your view but that does not mean that I am the one not seeing clearly. You are judging me with bias as you say I am doing but you have not proved your point of view because the bible says God calls mankind not hand picks them. There are many many scriptures that say God calls men through the gospel and that is how he adds to the church. Np where can you point to a scripture that says God only sends the gospel to a handful he picked and not all have a chance for the calling.

You keep saying things to the effect of, "this is what it says", when it it not what it says, except in your translation of choice. If it is not what the original manuscripts say, it is not "what it says".

That you don't have the tools to show how we are wrong does not mean we are right—I grant you that. But your defense is without merit. That a verse or passage brings to your mind certain thoughts, that many passages sound the same way to you, does not mean you are seeing it right. So far, I have seen no valid answers to the charge of corruption of Grace Alone, inherent in your thesis.

None of us here (to my knowledge) have said God only sends the Gospel to a handful he picked. Subtract that from your argument.

 

[BillyBob65]

You keep saying things to the effect of, "this is what it says", when it it not what it says, except in your translation of choice. If it is not what the original manuscripts say, it is not "what it says".

That you don't have the tools to show how we are wrong does not mean we are right—I grant you that. But your defense is without merit. That a verse or passage brings to your mind certain thoughts, that many passages sound the same way to you, does not mean you are seeing it right. So far, I have seen no valid answers to the charge of corruption of Grace Alone, inherent in your thesis.

None of us here (to my knowledge) have said God only sends the Gospel to a handful he picked. Subtract that from your argument.

Don't fully understand what you mean by "I have seen no valid answers to the charge of corruption of Grace Alone, inherent in your thesis." so before I respond I will ask for clarification.

 

[makesends]

Don't fully understand what you mean by "I have seen no valid answers to the charge of corruption of Grace Alone, inherent in your thesis." so before I respond I will ask for clarification.

I, if nobody else here, claim that your thesis implies a corruption of the 'Grace Alone' to the explicit exclusion of works declared in Ephesians 2:8,9 and which is also endemic to so many other Biblical statements. Your gospel is synergistic. I have seen no valid explanation from you, how synergism does not deny 'Salvation by Grace Alone'.

I'll copy here what I said to which you said you would wait to respond until I clarify what I meant by "the charge of corruption of Grace Alone":

makesends said:
You keep saying things to the effect of, "this is what it says", when it it not what it says, except in your translation of choice. If it is not what the original manuscripts say, it is not "what it says".

That you don't have the tools to show how we are wrong does not mean we are right—I grant you that. But your defense is without merit. That a verse or passage brings to your mind certain thoughts, that many passages sound the same way to you, does not mean you are seeing it right. So far, I have seen no valid answers to the charge of corruption of Grace Alone, inherent in your thesis.

None of us here (to my knowledge) have said God only sends the Gospel to a handful he picked. Subtract that from your argument.