FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

[makesends]

The Bible never plainly says:
God randomly picked some individuals to be saved and others lost before they were born.

Instead it shows:
God chose Christ first
Then chose to save everyone in Him

Nobody is saying that God randomly does anything. You are attempting to defeat a strawman.

 

[BillyBob65]

Nobody is saying that God randomly does anything. You are attempting to defeat a strawman.

The difference might be that God does not pick who is chosen but how one is chosen.

 

[makesends]

The difference might be that God does not pick who is chosen but how one is chosen.

Where does scriptures show God picking how one is chosen, as over against who is chosen? You appear to be manufacturing that meaning for predestination/election out of whole cloth, to support some thesis.

What do you think he chooses them for? Why did he create anyone to begin with? Is this an experiment? Or did he have a definite, particular, precious and specific end in mind? Is the body of Christ going to be a haphazard conglomeration of members?

 

[BillyBob65]

Where does scriptures show God picking how one is chosen, as over against who is chosen? You appear to be manufacturing that meaning for predestination/election out of whole cloth, to support some thesis.

What do you think he chooses them for? Why did he create anyone to begin with? Is this an experiment? Or did he have a definite, particular, precious and specific end in mind? Is the body of Christ going to be a haphazard conglomeration of members?

I done gave the scriptural support go back and read through it carefully.

He chooses them to be his people in Christ (the church)

God created people: To show His glory, To share His love, To have fellowship, To display His grace, Because it pleased Him

NO it is no experiment it is his divine will.

Yes he had a definite, particular, precious and specific end in mind. It was to have a kingdom of people in Christ.

The body of Christ going to be a body of members in Christ as the scriptures say.

 

[makesends]

I done gave the scriptural support go back and read through it carefully.

He chooses them to be his people in Christ (the church)

God created people: To show His glory, To share His love, To have fellowship, To display His grace, Because it pleased Him

NO it is no experiment it is his divine will.

Yes he had a definite, particular, precious and specific end in mind. It was to have a kingdom of people in Christ.

The body of Christ going to be a body of members in Christ as the scriptures say.

No, your scriptures did not show that. They only showed the different things for which the elect are all predestined, including to be conformed to the image of his Son, and for adoption, etc etc. No mention there that those things are how they are predestined, but, rather that they are the result, or, the aim of, predestination.

 

[Arial]

@Arial
Biblical predestination is God’s plan, made before the world began, that all who are in Christ will be saved and conformed to His image.

Romans 8:29–30
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son…”

Notice what is predestined:

Not first who would believe
But what believers would become — like Christ.

God determined beforehand that His people will be shaped into Christ’s image.

Ephesians 1:4–5
“He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ…”

The choice is in Christ
The destiny is adoption as sons

So God planned ahead that everyone in Christ would be saved and adopted.

Predestination = God’s decision beforehand about the destiny of those in Christ.

God decided in advance that:

Believers will be holy
Believers will be adopted
Believers will be glorified
Believers will be like Christ

The Bible never plainly says:
God randomly picked some individuals to be saved and others lost before they were born.

Instead it shows:
God chose Christ first
Then chose to save everyone in Him

Example: 1 Peter 2:6
“Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious…”

Christ is the Elect One. So election and predestination are centered on Him.

Think of it like this: God built an ark. He decided beforehand: Everyone inside the ark will be saved.
But people still must enter the ark. Same with Christ.

Predestination is meant to give believers comfort, not confusion.

It tells you:
Your salvation is part of God’s plan
Your future glory is certain
God will finish His work in you

As Paul said in Philippians 1:6:
“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it…”

Now that you have repeated yourself again without addressing any the points I made, do you suppose we can move to a different track as I suggested? Let's check our overarching premise--yours and mine---that controls each view. IOW, the premise that leads systematically to our conclusions on this matter of God's election or man's free choice.

Mine is the Doctrine of God---who he reveals himself to be.
What is yours?

 

[BillyBob65]

Now that you have repeated yourself again without addressing any the points I made, do you suppose we can move to a different track as I suggested? Let's check our overarching premise--yours and mine---that controls each view. IOW, the premise that leads systematically to our conclusions on this matter of God's election or man's free choice.

Mine is the Doctrine of God---who he reveals himself to be.
What is yours?

Mine is the Doctrine of God as well who also reveals himself to be.

What kind of a question is that? Did you expect me to say the devil?

 

[BillyBob65]

No, your scriptures did not show that. They only showed the different things for which the elect are all predestined, including to be conformed to the image of his Son, and for adoption, etc etc. No mention there that those things are how they are predestined, but, rather that they are the result, or, the aim of, predestination.

Ask yourself did God chose individually the Israelites or did he chose the nation to be his people. Your bias is getting in the way. You are looking at the scriptures and trying to make them fit your view rather than seeing what they reveal.

 

[JesusFan]

Did Jesus die to atone for the indivual sinners sin debt obligation to the father, or did he die for the plan?

 

[BillyBob65]

Did Jesus die to atone for the indivual sinners sin debt obligation to the father, or did he die for the plan?

Do you realize how crazy that sounds? Jesus died to atone the sins for the world meaning all mankind elementary teaching. The gospel call goes out to all mankind and who chooses to respond are in Christ as God predestined before the foundation of the world just as scripture teach. It is all right there in the word.

 

[Arial]

Mine is the Doctrine of God as well who also reveals himself to be.

What kind of a question is that? Did you expect me to say the devil?

If your premise is the doctrine of God as he reveals himself in Scripture, then where do you get the idea that he subjected his will (put his own will under) that of man's will so as to not violate man's free will? Put another way, prized the freedom of his enemies to choose or not choose the sacrifice of his Son, more than his own will.

Also, considering the Doctrine of God---who he is in his unchangeable nature (his attributes) how is it even possible for him to subject his will to anything?

 

[BillyBob65]

If your premise is the doctrine of God as he reveals himself in Scripture, then where do you get the idea that he subjected his will (put his own will under) that of man's will so as not violate man's free will? Put another way, prized the freedom of his enemies to choose or not choose the sacrifice of his Son, more than his own will.

Also, considering the Doctrine of God---who he is in his unchangeable nature (his attributes) how is it even possible for him to subject his will to anything?

Because he himself did it not man. He chose how he would save man from sin.It is recorded right there in the bible all I can do is let it It is your fawled bias that is not letting you see what he is revealing in scripture. You are reading scripture under rose tinted glasses and trying to make it fit what you were taught rather than letting it lead you to the truth. Mod Edit: Violation of rule 2.1 and 2.2

I know you can say the same to me because you already have many times in various wording so now we have to find a way to get to the truth of what is really being revealed for the word is the sole truth in the matter regardless of what we want it to say.

 

[Arial]

Because he himself did it not man. He chose how he would save man from sin

Where does it say that he chose to save man by subjecting his will to the will of man?

If God IS all his attributes and does not simply possess them as humans possess attributes; and if he is immutable, that is unchanging, in his attributes, i.e. his love never fluctuates, his justice never fluctuates, one attribute does not override or take precedence at the expense of another attribute and his will never changes because it is who he is. Contrasted to humans in the same respect may hate tomorrow what they love today and so on and so forth. If that is the case concerning God how can he be sovereign over all his creation and decide in some instance to hand that sovereignty of salvation over to the creatures will?

I know you can say the same to me because you already have many times in various wording so now we have to find a way to get to the truth of what is really being revealed for the word is the sole truth in the matter regardless of what we want it to say.

This is my way at getting at the truth. By asking pertinent questions and expecting well thought out and considered answers that are supported in Scripture and showing through exposition (expounding on the position--flesh on the bones) that the argument is correct. And that deal directly and in good faith the points presented.

 

[makesends]

Ask yourself did God chose individually the Israelites or did he chose the nation to be his people. Your bias is getting in the way. You are looking at the scriptures and trying to make them fit your view rather than seeing what they reveal.

If he chose the nation, he chose the individuals within it for the purposes he had for each one. God is particular, though he gives general commands applicable to the individuals and their lives. Note here, however, that as in any analogy, parallel, illustration, parable, symbolic account, pattern etc, this cannot be taken past the point for what it is intended. Past some point in the matter, the parallelism fails.

What is this, "your bias", that you think is getting in the way? Do you have no bias?

 

[BillyBob65]

Where does it say that he chose to save man by subjecting his will to the will of man?

If God IS all his attributes and does not simply possess them as humans possess attributes; and if he is immutable, that is unchanging, in his attributes, i.e. his love never fluctuates, his justice never fluctuates, one attribute does not override or take precedence at the expense of another attribute and his will never changes because it is who he is. Contrasted to humans in the same respect may hate tomorrow what they love today and so on and so forth. If that is the case concerning God how can he be sovereign over all his creation and decide in some instance to hand that sovereignty of salvation over to the creatures will?

This is my way at getting at the truth. By asking pertinent questions and expecting well thought out and considered answers that are supported in Scripture and showing through exposition (expounding on the position--flesh on the bones) that the argument is correct. And that deal directly and in good faith the points presented

You asked "Where does it say that he chose to save man by subjecting his will to the will of man"?

All through the bible it say believe the gospel he that believes believe my words. See he sent the gospel call out to the whole world and ask that we believe his words. John 3:16 for one but the bible is full of these verses. 2 Peter 3:9

 

[BillyBob65]

If he chose the nation, he chose the individuals within it for the purposes he had for each one. God is particular, though he gives general commands applicable to the individuals and their lives. Note here, however, that as in any analogy, parallel, illustration, parable, symbolic account, pattern etc, this cannot be taken past the point for what it is intended. Past some point in the matter, the parallelism fails.

What is this, "your bias", that you think is getting in the way? Do you have no bias?

Yes just as I say you do you can say I have but neither wants to admit it so therefore we must let the scriptures do the talking to see what they reveal.

 

[BillyBob65]

@Arial Sorry for the double quote I messed up the first quote box and couldn't delete it.

 

[makesends]

Do you realize how crazy that sounds? Jesus died to atone the sins for the world meaning all mankind elementary teaching. The gospel call goes out to all mankind and who chooses to respond are in Christ as God predestined before the foundation of the world just as scripture teach. It is all right there in the word.

Of course it sounds crazy! That was the point! Your question about Israel being God's chosen people invokes that very thing.

Your response here sidesteps the question, though. You resort to restating your position on the gospel as though it explains the question without actually answering the question. What you say here also is at odds with YOUR original question about corporate Israel. Here, if you intend both things as posted, the first post intends corporate Israel, God's chosen people, to equate to the Elect, in some way. In this post, you suddenly jump to the whole world, as thought that equates God's chosen people. Is the whole world God's chosen people?

 

[makesends]

Yes just as I say you do you can say I have but neither wants to admit it so therefore we must let the scriptures do the talking to see what they reveal.

I always admit I am biased. Look back in the history of my posts—I know you won't, but... I am biased, and there is no way to not be biased.

 

[BillyBob65]

Of course it sounds crazy! That was the point! Your question about Israel being God's chosen people invokes that very thing.

Your response here sidesteps the question, though. You resort to restating your position on the gospel as though it explains the question without actually answering the question. What you say here also is at odds with YOUR original question about corporate Israel. Here, if you intend both things as posted, the first post intends corporate Israel, God's chosen people, to equate to the Elect, in some way. In this post, you suddenly jump to the whole world, as thought that equates God's chosen people. Is the whole world God's chosen people?

No again it is the way you think you understand what I was saying.
Just as the nation was his chosen they still had to enter into the covenant he made with them. It is the same with those he chose in Christ we still have to enter into the covenant relationship. He sends out the call we accept very simple.