FOR or BECAUSE OF the forgiveness of your sins, (Acts 2:38)

[Arial]

I posted one scripture 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

and she said I posted 'collapsing of categories' I did not post any other scripture so how could it collapsed she is the one that brought in another scripture so she is the one that collapsed it.

I am going to requote the post of yours that I was responding to and show you where you did indeed bring up another scripture in interpreting 2 Peter 3:9 even though did not name the scripture.

That view contradicts 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

God wants ALL to come to repentance. See ALL remember God is no respecter of person He wants ALL not just a few but ALL the gospel call is for ALL Acts 2:39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call. ALL . The bible could not be more clear it is for All not just a select few that God hand picks. That is mans doctrine not from God because God says ALL.

You did indeed mention two scriptures and referred to another that you didn't name and that is where a scripture from one place was used to interpret the meaning of a scripture in another place, incorrectly. It is Acts 10:34. When Peter speaks of God not showing any partiality in that passage it is referring only of partiality between Jews and Gentiles in salvation.

 

[Arial]

My AI source is the same Chat GTP that you used my dear sister.

It doesn't matter whether you asked how it was used in the whole bible we need to see the context of the whole bible rather than cherry pick a few verses we think make our case.

All I did was showed you with scripture who the elect is. You are arguing with scripture not me.

What you are missing or refusing to see is that God had planed how he was going to Add to the kingdom from the beginning of time. God Knew at creation that mankind would fall from grace and planned then how he would redeem mankind back to his grace. It is through the gospel call that God chooses the elect those that respond to hi calling the called out.

again with the big fancy words to a hillbilly doesn't help if hillbilly doesn't understand the meaning of "arbitrarily" or "incendiary" is there not another way to say the quoted section?

Eph 1:4-5 is saying we are the elect through the grace the FAITH by obeying the gospel we became the elect.

"Arbitrary" is the word used in what you posted. Words can be so loosely used that they present less than what was meant and the point is lost. Or a different word can be used that brings precision to what is being said---forceful and direct, putting a sharp point on the point. There are posters on this forum that are far more informed, schooled (either formally or self-schooled) than I am. And not only here but in books, whether novels or non-fiction. I often come across words or terms I don't know the meaning of, so I look up the meaning and wa-la, I have learned something.

It is easy to do since if one is posting here, they are already on a computer or phone. Open a new window and type in the word asking for the definition. Not knowing something is not shameful. Everyone has to learn what they don't know. It is no cause to stereotype not knowing something as a "hillbilly" which is how you stereotyped yourself

Stereotype: a standardized mental picture that is held in common by members of a group and that represents an oversimplified opinion, prejudiced attitude, or uncritical judgment

Arbitrary: chosen, decided, etc. seemingly at random or on a whim rather than in a reasoned or methodical way

Incendiary: tending to excite or inflame
Incendiary language is language that promotes quarrels or is used (in this case) to intentionally misrepresent the doctrine of election by framing God's election as random and on a whim as though he had no reason or method.

Eph 1:4-5 is saying we are the elect through the grace the FAITH by obeying the gospel we became the elect.

No, the choosing is to be given to Christ (John 6:37,39,44,65; John 17:2,6,9,24; John 10:27-29.

Eph 1:4-5 is the same doctrine. "{He} chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption to himself as sons through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will---

See what you did? You repeated your position without engaging with anything I used to rebut that position. You did not engage with the scriptures I gave or the conclusion I arrived at from those scriptures.

 

[Arial]

My AI source is the same Chat GTP that you used my dear sister.

Then give me the prompt you gave to it, just as I showed you the prompt I gave. If you are not sure how to do that---split screen, open new window, go to the Chat conversation. Highlight your prompt and drag it into the "reply" box on the forum.

To be honest, why it did not seem like ChatGPT to me is because no matter what subject I am consulting it about it is always precise and never muddled grammatically and never simply gives scriptures or answers questions without going into great analytical detail (sometimes far more than I need or want). What you presented seems to maybe have a lot of what was given simply cut out, even in its format.

 

[BillyBob65]

Then give me the prompt you gave to it, just as I showed you the prompt I gave. If you are not sure how to do that---split screen, open new window, go to the Chat conversation. Highlight your prompt and drag it into the "reply" box on the forum.

To be honest, why it did not seem like ChatGPT to me is because no matter what subject I am consulting it about it is always precise and never muddled grammatically and never simply gives scriptures or answers questions without going into great analytical detail (sometimes far more than I need or want). What you presented seems to maybe have a lot of what was given simply cut out, even in its format.

according to scripture who is the elect of God Did he chose only some or offer to all and only some obey

 

[Arial]

It doesn't matter whether you asked how it was used in the whole bible we need to see the context of the whole bible rather than cherry pick a few verses we think make our case.

It matters a great deal. The different applications of "elect" are not the issue being discussed. What is being discussed is a particular application and specific words used by a specific author (Paul) that he applies to believers. What I did, courtesy of ChatGPT since it has that information stored in its data banks and accesses it at lightning speed, was ask it to show me how many times Paul used those specific words when he was applying those specific words to the believer. I did not ask any doctrinal questions. I did not ask for all the ways "elect" is applied in the Bible.

It went a step beyond just giving me the numbers and also gave me the scriptures. Your "rebuttal" ChatGPT addressed none of that and neither did you. I began addressing the things in that response for the sake of courtesy, not because it is relevant to by question to you, which was, in case you have forgotten

Calvin didn't invent anything and that is a cop out of an argument. The letter you refer to was written to the elect. Out of curiosity, take a look at the epistles and notice how many are addressed to "the elect" or the "called". How many places does Paul refer to the "called" and the "elect" the "chosen" when referring to believers?

And then I did that work so you wouldn't have to. And asked you if you were going to ignore that in Bible interpretation.

 

[Arial]

according to scripture who is the elect of God Did he chose only some or offer to all and only some obey

Why did you ask it that when that was not the subject? And "did he chose only some or offer to all and only some obey" is a loaded question. The doctrine of election does not teach that the gospel is only offered to some. And the Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) do not teach that obedience is what secures salvation or that obedience is a choice. So, if you ask AI if only some obey it will give you scriptures that show only some obey.

However, and again---"choosing" and "obeying" are different categories. Did Chat perhaps point that out if that is how you worded that? How much of its response did you delete?

 

[BillyBob65]

Why did you ask it that when that was not the subject? And "did he chose only some or offer to all and only some obey" is a loaded question. The doctrine of election does not teach that the gospel is only offered to some. And the Doctrines of Grace (TULIP) do not teach that obedience is what secures salvation or that obedience is a choice. So, if you ask AI if only some obey it will give you scriptures that show only some obey.

However, and again---"choosing" and "obeying" are different categories. Did Chat perhaps point that out if that is how you worded that? How much of its response did you delete?

Here is the answer to your ChatGPT post
1. “The called”
Clear Pauline uses referring to believers include:

Romans 1:6–7
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

Romans 9:24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

1 Corinthians Chapter 1:1,2

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians Chapter 1:24 “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”

Ephesians 4:1 “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,”

Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”

Paul is saying those that have heard the gospel call and responded are the called out of God. They were called by the gospel as God had planned from the beginning of time and accepted and became adopted the elect.

The elect and chosen are the same as the called just different words meaning the same and were called by the Gospel of Christ and responded to the gospel thus being adopted and the elect or chosen or called out of God.

The answer to this question I quoted is because the Elect the Called and The chosen are all Called and Chosen to be the elect in the same manner it is through the gospel call as the scriptures your ChatGTP gave you telling you just what I have been telling you. Paul is talking to those that chose to accept the gospel call and responded to it accordingly.

The bible says that your ChatGPT says that why can you not see it even when you posted the scriptures that say that.

 

[makesends]

Then give me the prompt you gave to it, just as I showed you the prompt I gave. If you are not sure how to do that---split screen, open new window, go to the Chat conversation. Highlight your prompt and drag it into the "reply" box on the forum.

To be honest, why it did not seem like ChatGPT to me is because no matter what subject I am consulting it about it is always precise and never muddled grammatically and never simply gives scriptures or answers questions without going into great analytical detail (sometimes far more than I need or want). What you presented seems to maybe have a lot of what was given simply cut out, even in its format.

There are significant differences in GPT's delivery according to the version of it, and specially according to the prompt asked, by which, I'm convinced, it 'assumes' nuances the prompter may not have been aware of. I have gotten detailed answers according to the detail of my question, and stupid answers according to the simplicity of my language --but always --ALWAYS-- affirming and people-pleasing. If my first question sounds Calvinistic my follow-up is assumed to be so also. But from another browser, the first question asked from an Arminian-sounding POV makes the follow-up question, even if the very same words as with the first browser's follow-up, answered to please an Arminian.

 

[Arial]

Here is the answer to your ChatGPT post
1. “The called”
Clear Pauline uses referring to believers include:

Romans 1:6–7
6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 8:28 “And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.”

Romans 9:24 “Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?”

1 Corinthians Chapter 1:1,2

1 Paul, called to be an apostle of Jesus Christ through the will of God, and Sosthenes our brother,

2 Unto the church of God which is at Corinth, to them that are sanctified in Christ Jesus, called to be saints, with all that in every place call upon the name of Jesus Christ our Lord, both theirs and ours:

1 Corinthians Chapter 1:24 “But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.”

Galatians 1:6 “I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:”

Ephesians 4:1 “I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,”

Ephesians 4:4 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;”

Paul is saying those that have heard the gospel call and responded are the called out of God. They were called by the gospel as God had planned from the beginning of time and accepted and became adopted the elect.

The elect and chosen are the same as the called just different words meaning the same and were called by the Gospel of Christ and responded to the gospel thus being adopted and the elect or chosen or called out of God.

The answer to this question I quoted is because the Elect the Called and The chosen are all Called and Chosen to be the elect in the same manner it is through the gospel call as the scriptures your ChatGTP gave you telling you just what I have been telling you. Paul is talking to those that chose to accept the gospel call and responded to it accordingly.

The bible says that your ChatGPT says that why can you not see it even when you posted the scriptures that say that.

Because---you interpret them through a presuppositional position that God does not elect before the foundation of the world and for his own purposes, those who he will give to the Son. You interpret them through that lens and then use them as confirmation bias. But thank you for presenting what you did as it engages solidly with my assertion.

Confirmation bias: people’s tendency to process information by looking for, or interpreting, information that is consistent with their existing beliefs.

You could easily say that is exactly what I am doing, but there is a way to check. So, since scripture interprets scripture, let's look at other scriptures on the same subject, being careful to keep all the comparisons within the same category (distinct classes to which entities or concepts belong) in this case, subject, and the question being answered involves election. Is election by God before faith or after (because of) faith? And if anyone reading this sees that I myself have used scripture inappropriately by slipping categories mid-stream, please let me know.

I will look at the most often used scripture used by both sides of the issue, ironic as that is. Romans 8:29-30.


29 For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
The debate centers around that word "foreknew". It can be used to mean knowing something in advance of its occurrence, which is how those who deny pre-faith election by God choose to interpret it. That is not the only option of the interpretation of "foreknew" so is it the correct one, and on what basis is it determined that it is correct?

Because I am no Greek scholar and I don't want to just make stuff up according to a confirmation bias, I asked AI to do a grammatical breakdown of Romans 8:29-30 from a completely neutral position, without importing theological conclusions. Rather than post the entire scripture breakdown (as I said earlier, they get quite detailed) I will post those things directly pertaining to "foreknew" and how "predestined" helps to properly interpret "foreknew" since that is the contested word.

.​

• οὓς
  • Relative pronoun, accusative masculine plural
  • Refers to a group of persons (“those whom”)
• προέγνω
  • Verb: aorist active indicative, 3rd singular
  • Lexical root: προγινώσκω (“to know beforehand”)
  • Subject: implicit (“he”)
  • Object: οὓς
  • Grammatically: simple past, undefined aspect

Literal sense:

“those whom he previously knew”

The passage says that those he knew beforehand he also predestined, so let's look at that grammatical breakdown and see if it gets clearer.

καὶ προώρισεν​

• καὶ – coordinating conjunction (“and”)
• προώρισεν
  • Verb: aorist active indicative, 3rd singular
  • Root: προορίζω (“to determine beforehand”)

Syntactical note:

• Shares the same relative object οὓς
• Parallel structure with προέγνω

Literal sense:

“he also predetermined”

(End of Chat)

So, in the literal sense the passage reads, "Those he knew beforehand he also predetermined to be conformed to the image of his Son with the result that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. Now those whom he predetermined these he called, and those he called, these he also justified, and those whom he justified, these he also glorified.

Now we also have our answer to what is meant by "called." Though the gospel is made available to all, general call that leaves all without excuse (it is not withheld and presented only to the elect) the "called" in Paul's references refers to what is termed theologically as the inward call and can be compared to John 10 "My sheep hear my voice and follow me," as being the same thing. The inward call. His sheep---the elect who God is giving to him.

 

[Arial]

There are significant differences in GPT's delivery according to the version of it, and specially according to the prompt asked, by which, I'm convinced, it 'assumes' nuances the prompter may not have been aware of. I have gotten detailed answers according to the detail of my question, and stupid answers according to the simplicity of my language --but always --ALWAYS-- affirming and people-pleasing. If my first question sounds Calvinistic my follow-up is assumed to be so also. But from another browser, the first question asked from an Arminian-sounding POV makes the follow-up question, even if the very same words as with the first browser's follow-up, answered to please an Arminian.

I am completely aware of that. It has no theological premise or position, but a good "memory" of the position of the person on the other side of the keyboard. And when I want a neutral assessment, I ask for it. Also, I check what it says, and it will usually offer to give me both sides of the story without my asking. I am pretty careful how I ask and what prompts I give. And of course, anyone and everyone is welcome to show where chat is wrong if I post something from there and they think/know it is incorrect.

 

[BillyBob65]

I am completely aware of that. It has no theological premise or position, but a good "memory" of the position of the person on the other side of the keyboard. And when I want a neutral assessment, I ask for it. Also, I check what it says, and it will usually offer to give me both sides of the story without my asking. I am pretty careful how I ask and what prompts I give. And of course, anyone and everyone is welcome to show where chat is wrong if I post something from there and they think/know it is incorrect.

1. Election Before the Foundation of the World​

Ephesians​

“According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…”

This teaches:

• The choosing was before creation
• It was “in Christ”
• It was according to God’s purpose and will

Notice the location of election: “in Him” (Christ) — not “apart from Him.”

---

2. According to Foreknowledge​

1 Peter​

“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God…”

Here election is said to be:

• In harmony with God’s foreknowledge
• Connected to sanctification and obedience

The question becomes:
Does “foreknowledge” mean God merely knew who would believe?
Or does it mean a relational knowing (as in Romans 8:29)?

---

3. Predestined to a Plan in Christ​

Romans​

“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate…”

Notice the order:

1. Foreknew
2. Predestined
3. Called
4. Justified
5. Glorified

The text does not say “whom He foresaw believing” — it says “whom He foreknew.”

---

4. Chosen Through the Gospel​

2 Thessalonians​

“God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth: Whereunto he called you by our gospel…”

Here we see something very important:

• Chosen “from the beginning”
• Through belief of the truth
• Called by the gospel

This passage clearly connects election with:

• The work of the Spirit
• Belief
• The gospel call

---

5. Is Election Individual or Corporate?​

Another key text:

Ephesians​

“Chosen in Christ”


Some understand this to mean:

• God chose Christ as the Elect One
• All who are “in Christ” share in that election
• The category is chosen; individuals enter it through faith

This view emphasizes:

• The gospel is for all
• God desires all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9)
• Election is not arbitrary but Christ-centered

---

So Does the Bible Tell​

Yes, but it gives principles more than mechanical detail:


The Bible says election is:

• Before the foundation of the world
• In Christ
• According to foreknowledge
• Through sanctification of the Spirit
• Through belief of the truth
• Effected by the gospel call

What it does not say explicitly is:

• That God elects randomly
• That He elects apart from Christ
• That He elects without regard to the gospel

---

The Tension Scripture Holds Together​

The Bible clearly affirms both:

1. God’s sovereign purpose in election
2. The universal call of the gospel

The debate among Christians is how those two truths harmonize — not whether both are taught.

 

[Arial]

This teaches:

• The choosing was before creation
• It was “in Christ”
• It was according to God’s purpose and will

Notice the location of election: “in Him” (Christ) — not “apart from Him.”

Could you please define for me what you say "in Christ" means. Are you saying it is in him that the election takes place?

I went through the whole post, and it gave incredibly briefly both sides of the story with no scriptural exegesis or background---which I suppose is because of the wording of the prompt. It did whatever you asked it to do. But it didn't resolve anything. It neither supported your view or my view except a couple of places.

The text does not say “whom He foresaw believing” — it says “whom He foreknew.”

Which leaves "foreknew" to be analyzed grammatically from the Greek---which I did.


I will point out where there is no disagreement between you view and mine but where you say there is because of not understanding the actual teaching of Reformed on the subject.

• Chosen “from the beginning”
• Through belief of the truth
• Called by the gospel

I agree with all of that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save?

This passage clearly connects election with:

• The work of the Spirit
• Belief
• The gospel call

I agree with that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save? The Spirit works in the elect (regeneration--born again) bringing them to belief when they hear the gospel.

• The gospel is for all
• God desires all to be saved (2 Peter 3:9)

These is a passage and an exposition (on gospel call) that needs to be exegeted, and I have done that in previous posts.

• Election is not arbitrary but Christ-centered

The doctrine of election does not present an arbitrary election and that statement is a statement of equivocation--as though if election of individuals to be saved exists, it is not Christ centered. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The elect are elected to be given to Christ as his inheritance.

Yes, but it gives principles more than mechanical detail:

I don't know what came after "Tell" in the title but as it stands, that is an untrue statement.

The Bible says election is:

• Before the foundation of the world
• In Christ
• According to foreknowledge
• Through sanctification of the Spirit
• Through belief of the truth
• Effected by the gospel call

• Yes
• To Christ not in Christ
• Yes
• Because of election not the reason for election
• Because of election not the reason for election
• The gospel call is because of the election

I have already presented my arguments for the above. And I did it from the Bible except for the Greek to English grammatical analysis and asking for the number of times Paul used certain words applied to believers.

So, now it is up to you to do the same in rebutting my position.

 

[BillyBob65]

Could you please define for me what you say "in Christ" means. Are you saying it is in him that the election takes place?

I went through the whole post, and it gave incredibly briefly both sides of the story with no scriptural exegesis or background---which I suppose is because of the wording of the prompt. It did whatever you asked it to do. But it didn't resolve anything. It neither supported your view or my view except a couple of places.

Which leaves "foreknew" to be analyzed grammatically from the Greek---which I did.


I will point out where there is no disagreement between you view and mine but where you say there is because of not understanding the actual teaching of Reformed on the subject.

I agree with all of that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save?

I agree with that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save? The Spirit works in the elect (regeneration--born again) bringing them to belief when they hear the gospel.

These is a passage and an exposition (on gospel call) that needs to be exegeted, and I have done that in previous posts.

The doctrine of election does not present an arbitrary election and that statement is a statement of equivocation--as though if election of individuals to be saved exists, it is not Christ centered. Nothing could be farther from the truth. The elect are elected to be given to Christ as his inheritance.

I don't know what came after "Tell" in the title but as it stands, that is an untrue statement.

• Yes
• To Christ not in Christ
• Yes
• Because of election not the reason for election
• Because of election not the reason for election
• The gospel call is because of the election

I have already presented my arguments for the above. And I did it from the Bible except for the Greek to English grammatical analysis and asking for the number of times Paul used certain words applied to believers.

So, now it is up to you to do the same in rebutting my position.

To be “in Christ” means you are joined to Him—belonging to Him, sharing in what He accomplished.
So “in Christ” means:
united to Him
forgiven because of Him
part of His body (the church)
sharing His life and promises

You said "I agree with that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save? The Spirit works in the elect (regeneration--born again) bringing them to belief when they hear the gospel."
Yes God sends out the gospel call to all people and the spirit works on the heart of the person to bring them to obey the gospel call ans once the person obeys the call of God they become the elect the chosen the called out of the world into a new life with Christ they are now in Christ it is in Christ that the elect are.

You said "The elect are elected to be given to Christ as his inheritance." Yes I agree those that respond to the gospel are given to be in Christ it is no longer I but Christ in me.

I have already presented my arguments for the above. And I did it from the Bible except for the Greek to English grammatical analysis and asking for the number of times Paul used certain words applied to believers.

So, now it is up to you to do the same in rebutting my position.

The Bible says election is:
Before the foundation of the world
In Christ
According to foreknowledge
Through sanctification of the Spirit
Through belief of the truth
Effected by the gospel call

Before the foundation of the world? This should be common knowledge that I do not have to find the scriptures that say that God had his plan of redemption before the foundation of the world. It is the Gospel of Christ should be self explanatory.

In Christ? this also should be well known that if you are of Christ you are in Christ many scripture support that and it is in Christ that salvation is found the plan of redemption that was Before the foundation of the world.

According to foreknowledge? Again see Before the foundation of the world.

Through sanctification of the Spirit? see in Christ above.

Through belief of the truth? The FAITH once for all delivered see
Before the foundation of the world.

Effected by the gospel call? The gospel call is something that needs to be answered. The expected response is given every time the gospel call goes out.

Does Election Take Place “In Christ”?Yes—that is exactly what Ephesians 1:4 says:​

“He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world.”

I don't know if that answers your question but it is what I thought you were asking of me.

 

[Arial]

To be “in Christ” means you are joined to Him—belonging to Him, sharing in what He accomplished.
So “in Christ” means:
united to Him
forgiven because of Him
part of His body (the church)
sharing His life and promises

You said "I agree with that. How is that saying that God does not elect who to save? The Spirit works in the elect (regeneration--born again) bringing them to belief when they hear the gospel."
Yes God sends out the gospel call to all people and the spirit works on the heart of the person to bring them to obey the gospel call ans once the person obeys the call of God they become the elect the chosen the called out of the world into a new life with Christ they are now in Christ it is in Christ that the elect are.

You said "The elect are elected to be given to Christ as his inheritance." Yes I agree those that respond to the gospel are given to be in Christ it is no longer I but Christ in me.


Before the foundation of the world? This should be common knowledge that I do not have to find the scriptures that say that God had his plan of redemption before the foundation of the world. It is the Gospel of Christ should be self explanatory.

In Christ? this also should be well known that if you are of Christ you are in Christ many scripture support that and it is in Christ that salvation is found the plan of redemption that was Before the foundation of the world.

According to foreknowledge? Again see Before the foundation of the world.

Through sanctification of the Spirit? see in Christ above.

Through belief of the truth? The FAITH once for all delivered see
Before the foundation of the world.

Effected by the gospel call? The gospel call is something that needs to be answered. The expected response is given every time the gospel call goes out.

Does Election Take Place “In Christ”?Yes—that is exactly what Ephesians 1:4 says:​

I don't know if that answers your question but it is what I thought you were asking of me.

I know what in Christ means and it appears that you do too. But why do you say that election is after we are in Christ? That is not election. That is like saying "When/if you come to faith then God will elect you." Or in the real world, "After the president is elected then he will be elected president." He is the president Because You he was elected. You have not demonstrated that what you say is correct---you just keep repeating it.

Does Election Take Place “In Christ”?Yes—that is exactly what Ephesians 1:4 says:

It can be saying that, but it is not explicitly saying that. It does not explicitly say that individuals become elect only after believing nor that individual are elect prior to any relation to Christ apart from him. And the doctrine of election does not teach that election is apart from Christ but that the union takes place in time.

That scripture, like so many others that are taken in isolation, needs broader theological input from other scriptures. One of the best examples that refutes your interpretation of Eph 1:4 is Romans 6:29-30 which I have already given with the Greek to English text analysis and you have not dealt with. In that passage, foreknew precedes predestination, faith is not listed as the cause of predestination, calling precedes justification, justification presupposes faith elsewhere in Scripture. The sequence is presented as God's action from start to finish, not reactive to human belief.

Romans 9: 11-13 “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue…”
The text explicitly excludes human actions. If election depends on faith, faith would be something done but Paul grounds election before any such act. It is directly incompatible with election conditioned on belief.

In the same paragraph of Eph 1 verses 11-13
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined… In him you also, when you heard the word of truth… and believed, were sealed…”
Predestination is stated before hearing and believing. Faith is the means of sealing, not the ground of election/predestination.

• Yes
• To Christ not in Christ
• Yes
• Because of election not the reason for election
• Because of election not the reason for election
• The gospel call is because of the election

The above is my clarification to what your Chat proposed that was left open to interpretation and not precise which was:




The Bible says election is:

• Before the foundation of the world
• In Christ
• According to foreknowledge
• Through sanctification of the Spirit
• Through belief of the truth
• Effected by the gospel call

Not even your version of chat is necessarily saying what you are saying.

 

[BillyBob65]

I know what in Christ means and it appears that you do too. But why do you say that election is after we are in Christ? That is not election. That is like saying "When/if you come to faith then God will elect you." Or in the real world, "After the president is elected then he will be elected president." He is the president Because You he was elected. You have not demonstrated that what you say is correct---you just keep repeating it.

It can be saying that, but it is not explicitly saying that. It does not explicitly say that individuals become elect only after believing nor that individual are elect prior to any relation to Christ apart from him. And the doctrine of election does not teach that election is apart from Christ but that the union takes place in time.

That scripture, like so many others that are taken in isolation, needs broader theological input from other scriptures. One of the best examples that refutes your interpretation of Eph 1:4 is Romans 6:29-30 which I have already given with the Greek to English text analysis and you have not dealt with. In that passage, foreknew precedes predestination, faith is not listed as the cause of predestination, calling precedes justification, justification presupposes faith elsewhere in Scripture. The sequence is presented as God's action from start to finish, not reactive to human belief.

Romans 9: 11-13 “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue…”
The text explicitly excludes human actions. If election depends on faith, faith would be something done but Paul grounds election before any such act. It is directly incompatible with election conditioned on belief.

In the same paragraph of Eph 1 verses 11-13
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined… In him you also, when you heard the word of truth… and believed, were sealed…”
Predestination is stated before hearing and believing. Faith is the means of sealing, not the ground of election/predestination.

The above is my clarification to what your Chat proposed that was left open to interpretation and not precise which was:




The Bible says election is:

• Before the foundation of the world
• In Christ
• According to foreknowledge
• Through sanctification of the Spirit
• Through belief of the truth
• Effected by the gospel call

Not even your version of chat is necessarily saying what you are saying

sorry duplicate messed up the quote box

 

[BillyBob65]

I know what in Christ means and it appears that you do too. But why do you say that election is after we are in Christ? That is not election. That is like saying "When/if you come to faith then God will elect you." Or in the real world, "After the president is elected then he will be elected president." He is the president Because You he was elected. You have not demonstrated that what you say is correct---you just keep repeating it.

It can be saying that, but it is not explicitly saying that. It does not explicitly say that individuals become elect only after believing nor that individual are elect prior to any relation to Christ apart from him. And the doctrine of election does not teach that election is apart from Christ but that the union takes place in time.

That scripture, like so many others that are taken in isolation, needs broader theological input from other scriptures. One of the best examples that refutes your interpretation of Eph 1:4 is Romans 6:29-30 which I have already given with the Greek to English text analysis and you have not dealt with. In that passage, foreknew precedes predestination, faith is not listed as the cause of predestination, calling precedes justification, justification presupposes faith elsewhere in Scripture. The sequence is presented as God's action from start to finish, not reactive to human belief.

Romans 9: 11-13 “Though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue…”
The text explicitly excludes human actions. If election depends on faith, faith would be something done but Paul grounds election before any such act. It is directly incompatible with election conditioned on belief.

In the same paragraph of Eph 1 verses 11-13
“In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined… In him you also, when you heard the word of truth… and believed, were sealed…”
Predestination is stated before hearing and believing. Faith is the means of sealing, not the ground of election/predestination.

The above is my clarification to what your Chat proposed that was left open to interpretation and not precise which was:




The Bible says election is:

• Before the foundation of the world
• In Christ
• According to foreknowledge
• Through sanctification of the Spirit
• Through belief of the truth
• Effected by the gospel call

Not even your version of chat is necessarily saying what you are saying.

God chose Christ as the Elect One, God determined beforehand that all who are in Christ would be saved. The election is of the sphere or body, not pre-selection of individuals. Individuals enter that elect body by faith. So the decree is: “Whoever is in Christ is chosen.” Not: “These specific individuals will be put into Christ.”

In Romans 8:29,3 Paul gives a chain of five actions God does:

Foreknew God knew beforehand who would be His people. But “foreknow” in the Bible often means a relational knowing, not just awareness of facts. Example: God says He “knew” Israel in a special covenant sense (Book of Amos 3:2). So here it likely means: God set His love beforehand on a people.
Two Main Views A. Calvinist view, God chose certain individuals before creation.
B. Arminian, God foreknew those who would respond to Christ. Election is in Christ, not arbitrary individuals. Both agree God knew beforehand—difference is how. The difference is God chose those that are in Christ

Predestined, Predestination here is defined in the verse itself: “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” So God predetermined that His people would become like Christ. This is about: holiness, adoption, and final glory. Not necessarily forcing belief, but determining the destiny of those in Christ.

Called God calls through the gospel. See: Second Epistle to the Thessalonians2:14 — “called you by our gospel. There are two senses of calling: General call – gospel preached to all. Effective call – those who respond in faith. In Romans, “the called” refers to those who actually became God’s people.

Justified, Justified = declared righteous. This happens when a person obeys the gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and walking in Christ. See: Epistle of James 2:24, Acts of the Apostles 2:38

Glorified Final step = resurrection glory. Paul speaks of it as past tense because it is certain. See:
First Epistle of John 3:2 Paul is speaking to Christians already in Christ.The question is not,
“Who can be saved?” But, "Will God finish saving those who are in Christ?” Answer: Yes. God wants all to be saved: First Epistle to Timothy 2:4 Second Epistle of Peter 3:9

So Romans 8 does not cancel human responsibility—it shows God’s faithful plan.

Romans 8:29-30 teaches:

God knew His people beforehand
He planned they would become like Christ
He called them by the gospel
He justified them when they obeyed
He will glorify them in the end

It shows the certainty of salvation for those in Christ.

Romans 9: 11-13
In Romans 9–11, Paul is answering this question:
If Israel is God’s chosen nation, why are many Jews rejecting Christ? So Paul shows: God’s promises were never based on physical descent alone. Not all physical Israel is spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6).
This prophecy was about nations, not just individuals. Jacob → Israel: Esau → Edom
And historically, Israel ruled over Edom later. So Paul is showing God chose which nation would carry the promise of the Messiah. God chose Jacob’s line for His covenant purpose. Not that God eternally damned Esau personally. God was choosing: Which family line the Messiah would come through Which nation would carry the covenant promises This is corporate election (nation/service), not necessarily individual salvation. God has always chosen how His redemptive plan unfolds.
Example chain in Romans 9: Isaac, not Ishmael Jacob, not Esau, But this did not guarantee salvation for every Israelite. Instead, it shows God’s freedom in choosing His covenant line.

God chose the plan and the people “in Christ,” not arbitrary individuals.

 

[makesends]

God chose Christ as the Elect One, God determined beforehand that all who are in Christ would be saved. The election is of the sphere or body, not pre-selection of individuals. Individuals enter that elect body by faith. So the decree is: “Whoever is in Christ is chosen.” Not: “These specific individuals will be put into Christ.”

In Romans 8:29,3 Paul gives a chain of five actions God does:

Foreknew God knew beforehand who would be His people. But “foreknow” in the Bible often means a relational knowing, not just awareness of facts. Example: God says He “knew” Israel in a special covenant sense (Book of Amos 3:2). So here it likely means: God set His love beforehand on a people.
Two Main Views A. Calvinist view, God chose certain individuals before creation.
B. Arminian, God foreknew those who would respond to Christ. Election is in Christ, not arbitrary individuals. Both agree God knew beforehand—difference is how. The difference is God chose those that are in Christ

Predestined, Predestination here is defined in the verse itself: “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” So God predetermined that His people would become like Christ. This is about: holiness, adoption, and final glory. Not necessarily forcing belief, but determining the destiny of those in Christ.

Called God calls through the gospel. See: Second Epistle to the Thessalonians2:14 — “called you by our gospel. There are two senses of calling: General call – gospel preached to all. Effective call – those who respond in faith. In Romans, “the called” refers to those who actually became God’s people.

Justified, Justified = declared righteous. This happens when a person obeys the gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and walking in Christ. See: Epistle of James 2:24, Acts of the Apostles 2:38

Glorified Final step = resurrection glory. Paul speaks of it as past tense because it is certain. See:
First Epistle of John 3:2 Paul is speaking to Christians already in Christ.The question is not,
“Who can be saved?” But, "Will God finish saving those who are in Christ?” Answer: Yes. God wants all to be saved: First Epistle to Timothy 2:4 Second Epistle of Peter 3:9

So Romans 8 does not cancel human responsibility—it shows God’s faithful plan.

Romans 8:29-30 teaches:

God knew His people beforehand
He planned they would become like Christ
He called them by the gospel
He justified them when they obeyed
He will glorify them in the end

It shows the certainty of salvation for those in Christ.

Romans 9: 11-13
In Romans 9–11, Paul is answering this question:
If Israel is God’s chosen nation, why are many Jews rejecting Christ? So Paul shows: God’s promises were never based on physical descent alone. Not all physical Israel is spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6).
This prophecy was about nations, not just individuals. Jacob → Israel: Esau → Edom
And historically, Israel ruled over Edom later. So Paul is showing God chose which nation would carry the promise of the Messiah. God chose Jacob’s line for His covenant purpose. Not that God eternally damned Esau personally. God was choosing: Which family line the Messiah would come through Which nation would carry the covenant promises This is corporate election (nation/service), not necessarily individual salvation. God has always chosen how His redemptive plan unfolds.
Example chain in Romans 9: Isaac, not Ishmael Jacob, not Esau, But this did not guarantee salvation for every Israelite. Instead, it shows God’s freedom in choosing His covenant line.

God chose the plan and the people “in Christ,” not arbitrary individuals.

Do you believe that God, from the foundation of the world, only had in mind some random selection? Is the Bride of Christ made of random members, who out of the goodness of their own hearts, though created, have, in and of themselves, (ok, yes, with God's help), given God some reason to select them????

This is God's doing. Not ours. We do so because it is so.

 

[BillyBob65]

Do you believe that God, from the foundation of the world, only had in mind some random selection? Is the Bride of Christ made of random members, who out of the goodness of their own hearts, though created, have, in and of themselves, (ok, yes, with God's help), given God some reason to select them????

This is God's doing. Not ours. We do so because it is so.

Do you believe that you know better than God the mind of God. I don't know why God does the things he does I can only go by what he reveals in his word.

 

[Arial]

God chose Christ as the Elect One, God determined beforehand that all who are in Christ would be saved. The election is of the sphere or body, not pre-selection of individuals. Individuals enter that elect body by faith. So the decree is: “Whoever is in Christ is chosen.” Not: “These specific individuals will be put into Christ.”

If that is the way you prefer to look at it, who am I to attempt to persuade you differently. As long as you know/believe who Christ is according to the Bible, I can only presume from Scripture that is sufficient unto salvation. However, this is a forum where theology and doctrine and other things are discussed. Where apologetics (what I believe and why I believe it) are articulated and differing interpretations are (hopefully)put under the microscope of sound hermeneutical rules and examined. That is, btw, exactly what the Reformers were doing when they recognized how far much of the Roman church had veered from any such practice.

So, I will continue through your post briefly, pointing out where I believe your (conclusions without prior support other than, in effect, "This is how I interpret that scripture.", are at the very least careless with wording. Not on my part to be persnickety, but because they are open to being taken wrong and producing even more doctrines that will not hold up to careful scrutiny.

God did not choose Christ as the elect one (John 1:1). As God, he always was who he is and who he will always be. The incarnation did not change that. Jesus is not "the elect one", he is the Savior who came as one of us to redeem through substitution and propitiation.

God did not determine beforehand that all who are in Christ will be saved. God, --- Father, Son, and Spirit---covenanted within the Godhead that the Son would come as one of us to redeem a people from the curse that fell on all mankind (and creation itself) through the transgression of Adam. He of necessity had to be of the same kind as those he substituted for; and that after he had completed his work of redemption on the cross and returned to the Father, he would send the Holy Spirit, and the Spirit would apply that work according to the Father's will (John 3). What was ordained (determined if you will) was not that all who are in Christ will be saved, but that Jesus would do the work necessary for salvation of any, and what was decreed (slight difference in this application) was the means: union with Christ through faith. The means of attaining this faith is the new birth by the Spirit.

The election is of the sphere or body, not pre-selection of individuals. Individuals enter that elect body by faith. So the decree is: “Whoever is in Christ is chosen.” Not: “These specific individuals will be put into Christ.”

You have not actually proven that point and what you used to reach that conclusion has been faulty as shown by my post above. But that aside, let's see if there is reasonable logic in the above statement itself.

The body of Christ is elect as a covenant community, but that does not exclude election of individuals who make up the body. Individuals enter that body through faith, but that does not exclude election of individual who enter the body. "Whoever is in Christ is chosen" but that does not exclude that they are not in Christ because they were chosen. And it would not be a decree. The decree would be that Christ would do the work necessary for him to purchase a people as his own and is expressed in a representative and duty-oriented (holiness) way as his "body". His church ekklesia which means an assembly of people called out from the general population for a specific purpose. Called out from the world to follow God. The means would be regeneration and faith.

Neither "Whoever is in Christ is chosen" nor "These specific individuals will be put in Christ" is given as a decree in Scripture. And Reformed theology never states it as a decree. So, your assertion that God does not elect individuals has not actually even been addressed.

Predestined, Predestination here is defined in the verse itself: “to be conformed to the image of his Son.” So God predetermined that His people would become like Christ. This is about: holiness, adoption, and final glory. Not necessarily forcing belief, but determining the destiny of those in Christ.

That does not exclude election of individuals.

Called God calls through the gospel. See: Second Epistle to the Thessalonians2:14 — “called you by our gospel. There are two senses of calling: General call – gospel preached to all. Effective call – those who respond in faith. In Romans, “the called” refers to those who actually became God’s people.

That does not exclude election of individuals.

Justified, Justified = declared righteous. This happens when a person obeys the gospel: faith, repentance, baptism, and walking in Christ. See: Epistle of James 2:24, Acts of the Apostles 2:38

Glorified Final step = resurrection glory. Paul speaks of it as past tense because it is certain. See:
First Epistle of John 3:2 Paul is speaking to Christians already in Christ.The question is not,
“Who can be saved?” But, "Will God finish saving those who are in Christ?” Answer: Yes. God wants all to be saved: First Epistle to Timothy 2:4 Second Epistle of Peter 3:9

Does not exclude election of individuals.

So Romans 8 does not cancel human responsibility—it shows God’s faithful plan.

Human responsibility is an entirely different subject.

Romans 8:29-30 teaches:

God knew His people beforehand
He planned they would become like Christ
He called them by the gospel
He justified them when they obeyed
He will glorify them in the end

It shows the certainty of salvation for those in Christ.

Does not exclude election of individuals.

Romans 9: 11-13
In Romans 9–11, Paul is answering this question:
If Israel is God’s chosen nation, why are many Jews rejecting Christ? So Paul shows: God’s promises were never based on physical descent alone. Not all physical Israel is spiritual Israel (Romans 9:6).
This prophecy was about nations, not just individuals. Jacob → Israel: Esau → Edom
And historically, Israel ruled over Edom later. So Paul is showing God chose which nation would carry the promise of the Messiah. God chose Jacob’s line for His covenant purpose. Not that God eternally damned Esau personally. God was choosing: Which family line the Messiah would come through Which nation would carry the covenant promises This is corporate election (nation/service), not necessarily individual salvation. God has always chosen how His redemptive plan unfolds.
Example chain in Romans 9: Isaac, not Ishmael Jacob, not Esau, But this did not guarantee salvation for every Israelite. Instead, it shows God’s freedom in choosing His covenant line.

Corporate election does not exclude individual election. The above shows God's freedom in choosing his covenant people. Paul pulls that passage straight into the NC in verses 14 on.

Election is in Christ, not arbitrary individuals.

God chose the plan and the people “in Christ,” not arbitrary individuals.

This underlines the motive behind all the "evidence" you interpret to deny election by God of individuals. And it "reasons" through a bias against it by using an unreasonable equation. That if "I don't know the reason, then that means there isn't one."

There really isn't any point in repeating your same arguments again while ignoring mine---and I am not going to repeat mine again. So, lets open a different track on the same subject. How do we (you and I) arrive at our different interpretations of the same scriptures. There must be an overriding premise.

Mine is the Doctrine of God---who he says he is by his self-revelation.

What is yours and what do you base it on?

 

[BillyBob65]

@Arial
Biblical predestination is God’s plan, made before the world began, that all who are in Christ will be saved and conformed to His image.

Romans 8:29–30
“For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son…”

Notice what is predestined:

Not first who would believe
But what believers would become — like Christ.

God determined beforehand that His people will be shaped into Christ’s image.

Ephesians 1:4–5
“He hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world…
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ…”

The choice is in Christ
The destiny is adoption as sons

So God planned ahead that everyone in Christ would be saved and adopted.

Predestination = God’s decision beforehand about the destiny of those in Christ.

God decided in advance that:

Believers will be holy
Believers will be adopted
Believers will be glorified
Believers will be like Christ

The Bible never plainly says:
God randomly picked some individuals to be saved and others lost before they were born.

Instead it shows:
God chose Christ first
Then chose to save everyone in Him

Example: 1 Peter 2:6
“Behold, I lay in Zion a chief cornerstone, elect, precious…”

Christ is the Elect One. So election and predestination are centered on Him.

Think of it like this: God built an ark. He decided beforehand: Everyone inside the ark will be saved.
But people still must enter the ark. Same with Christ.

Predestination is meant to give believers comfort, not confusion.

It tells you:
Your salvation is part of God’s plan
Your future glory is certain
God will finish His work in you

As Paul said in Philippians 1:6:
“He which hath begun a good work in you will perform it…”