Does the Bible say God chose and predestinated some to salvation

[Carbon]

So long as you understand it is salvation by grace through faith that is not of yourselves.

But I dont think you understand what that means. even though you can recite the verse

 

[makesends]

Judas had no choice to make if God had already specifically fated him to do it.

Strange you would attribute cold "fate" to the overwhelmingly joyful and loving purposes of Omnipotent God. God determined from the foundation of the earth, EVERYTHING that came subsequently to that. If you want to call that fate, go ahead, but God calls it his pleasure, his choice, his purposes, his intention and other things —all of them active, full-of-life facts of God's origination.

Judas, Satan, and you and I fit exactly what God had in mind from the beginning, for the ends he had in mind from the beginning, by obedience and by rebellion, according to God's plan (which is what the Reformed call "God's decree"). Judas had choice. He chose according to his sinful inclinations.

 

[TMSO]

Strange you would attribute cold "fate" to the overwhelmingly joyful and loving purposes of Omnipotent God. God determined from the foundation of the earth, EVERYTHING that came subsequently to that. If you want to call that fate, go ahead, but God calls it his pleasure, his choice, his purposes, his intention and other things —all of them active, full-of-life facts of God's origination.

Judas, Satan, and you and I fit exactly what God had in mind from the beginning, for the ends he had in mind from the beginning, by obedience and by rebellion, according to God's plan (which is what the Reformed call "God's decree"). Judas had choice. He chose according to his sinful inclinations.

Consider that the reason people want to say fate is because they are solely focused on man, and not on God. It isn't fair that God, who created all of this for Himself, gets to decide "our fate". (See how that fits in perfectly.) This post modern, post truth thought process has completely distorted any truthful view of who God is, and who we are to Him. So many don't want to consider that, because then their arguments collapse. This is God's house, therefore it is His rules. He can kick out whoever He wants. Notice how many parables talk about a master and slaves/servants. God is always the master, and this master always does as He pleases, right down to stripping the talent off of one he called a wicked and slothful servant. And the, from man's view, God wasn't fair because he should have given the talent to the middle guy. What was Jesus point? God chose to give one person more than the others, and to that one He gave the talent from the worthless servant. Why? Because he was faithful with more, so more is given. Or, simply, the talent was the master's to do with as he desired. However, the pride and evil of man can't stand such an idea. So we have evolution and theistic evolution, which makes God a bystander and not the one in charge. That now makes it "unfair" and fate.

 

[atpollard]

So God made the choice for Judas before Judas could make a choice.

The inherent flaw in most logical arguments is the assumption that if God does nothing people might do the right thing.

Adam and Eve present a case of God doing nothing and human beings unswervingly choosing to do the wrong thing … over and over. They doubted what God said was true. They questioned God’s motives. The chose their will over God’s command. They attempted to cover-up what they had done (their nakedness). They HID FROM God rather than run to God. They presented excuses and blamed everyone and anyone else (including God) rather than their choice.

So in the case of Judas, (as the reprobates in Romans 1), God is “guilty” of NOT RESTRAINING the evil men desired to do. God made the choice to ALLOW Judas to do what fallen men naturally do … and God DREW the other 11 to Christ and refused to surrender them to evil.

 

[GeneZ]

Does the Bible say God chose and predestined some to salvation?

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:4-5.


The answer is obviously a "Yes."

So then, do you consider election, or God’s choice of men, unfair, even thouh Paul said it's not? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:14.

Eph 1:4-5. was written by Paul to the Church. Not written for the age of Israel. Not to Millennial believers. To the Church only.

We have been chosen and predestined by God to become members of the Bride of Christ at the point in time that we believe.
God chose for us to be the Bride out from all other believers in time. Chose for when we were to be born as to become the Bride
in time of our salvation.

He chose us before the foundation of the world. Chosen out from all He knows will believe in time.
To make his choice for the Bride come to pass? He predestined us to be born during the Church age.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Does the Bible say God chose and predestined some to salvation?

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:4-5.


The answer is obviously a "Yes."

So then, do you consider election, or God’s choice of men, unfair, even thouh Paul said it's not? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:14.

This Biblical truth is hard pill for people to swallow, because they believe mankind is not fallen. Majority believes that God saves good people and that Adam was just a cautionary tale to be aware of. Instead we should follow the example of Christ. That's all that is required, nothing more, nothing less. Just love everyone and forgive everyone, help the homeless, care for the sick, be a model citizen. Know the secret knowledge that nobody else possesses about God.

This is the common consensus called Progressive Christianity. No mention is made of original sin, the fall, the consequences of sin, the need of a Savior who died for us sins upon the bloody Cross and suffered the death owed to us. No mention of the wages of sin, and how Christ deals with it at all. Matter of fact they find this to be absurd to think that God punished his own Son for no reason. They refute the historic teaching of Scripture. And replace it with Dr, feel good.

They mock predestination and being elected by God. Just be a good person is all that is required. Old heresies spring up again, tares among the wheat. They refuse to believe that people need grace from God.​

 

[makesends]

The inherent flaw in most logical arguments is the assumption that if God does nothing people might do the right thing.

Adam and Eve present a case of God doing nothing and human beings unswervingly choosing to do the wrong thing … over and over. They doubted what God said was true. They questioned God’s motives. The chose their will over God’s command. They attempted to cover-up what they had done (their nakedness). They HID FROM God rather than run to God. They presented excuses and blamed everyone and anyone else (including God) rather than their choice.

So in the case of Judas, (as the reprobates in Romans 1), God is “guilty” of NOT RESTRAINING the evil men desired to do. God made the choice to ALLOW Judas to do what fallen men naturally do … and God DREW the other 11 to Christ and refused to surrender them to evil.

This Biblical truth is hard pill for people to swallow, because they believe mankind is not fallen. Majority believes that God saves good people and that Adam was just a cautionary tale to be aware of. Instead we should follow the example of Christ. That's all that is required, nothing more, nothing less. Just love everyone and forgive everyone, help the homeless, care for the sick, be a model citizen. Know the secret knowledge that nobody else possesses about God.

This is the common consensus called Progressive Christianity. No mention is made of original sin, the fall, the consequences of sin, the need of a Savior who died for us sins upon the bloody Cross and suffered the death owed to us. No mention of the wages of sin, and how Christ deals with it at all. Matter of fact they find this to be absurd to think that God punished his own Son for no reason. They refute the historic teaching of Scripture. And replace it with Dr, feel good.

They mock predestination and being elected by God. Just be a good person is all that is required. Old heresies spring up again, tares among the wheat. They refuse to believe that people need grace from God.​

Well put. Well described, both.

 

[Tambora]

God did not force him to decide either way. Judas made up his own mind and chose.

How was it not by force if God already fated him to do so?

 

[Tambora]

The inherent flaw in most logical arguments is the assumption that if God does nothing people might do the right thing.

You must be thinking of someone else's argument, because I don't make that argument.

Adam and Eve present a case of God doing nothing and human beings unswervingly choosing to do the wrong thing … over and over. They doubted what God said was true. They questioned God’s motives. The chose their will over God’s command. They attempted to cover-up what they had done (their nakedness). They HID FROM God rather than run to God. They presented excuses and blamed everyone and anyone else (including God) rather than their choice.

I don't make that argument either.

So in the case of Judas, (as the reprobates in Romans 1), God is “guilty” of NOT RESTRAINING the evil men desired to do. God made the choice to ALLOW Judas to do what fallen men naturally do … and God DREW the other 11 to Christ and refused to surrender them to evil.

God did a lot to restrain evil by chaining some rebel angels, by the law, by discipline, etc.
And God still told mankind to choose whom they would serve, and God expressed sorrow and sometimes anger when some men chose badly.

 

[DialecticSkeptic]

Does that mean all things past, present, and future are eternally present before God, or does that mean God is presently present at every point in time past, present, and future?

Would you explain the difference, please?

 

[JIM]

But I dont think you understand what that means. even though you can recite the verse

Given some of your other posts, I know you don't understand what that means. What it actually means is simply outside of your wheelhouse.

 

[JIM]

Judas had no choice to make if God had already specifically fated him to do it.

God knew what Judas would do and He used it in bringing salvation to the world. Clearly what God knew (foreknew) what Judas would do was absolutely certain to happen. But it was certain because of Judas' decision to do it, not because God knew that Judas would do it. Not understanding that distinction is what drives so many to get confused about the difference between God's foreknowledge and God's predestination. God's foreknowledge is complete. That is His omniscience applied to the future. Absolutely everything is within God's omniscience. God's predestination is quite selective and quite limited in the everyday functioning of the creation. We know that to be true simply because so much of what happens is not consistent with what God has established as His law.

 

[atpollard]

You must be thinking of someone else's argument, because I don't make that argument.

You made no argument at all ... you made a statement that carried an implied "Is God fair?" ... I addressed the flaw in your implied question.

Were you really arguing "So God made the choice for Judas before Judas could make a choice." or were you actually questioning the "fairness" of the situation? Did I really misunderstand?

 

[Carbon]

How was it not by force if God already fated him to do so?

God just let Judas be more of himself.

 

[Alive]

How was it not by force if God already fated him to do so?

“What shall we say then? There is no injustice with God, is there? Far from it! For He says to Moses, “I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOMEVER I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL SHOW COMPASSION TO WHOMEVER I SHOW COMPASSION.” So then, it does not depend on the person who wants it nor the one who runs, but on God who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “FOR THIS VERY REASON I RAISED YOU UP, IN ORDER TO DEMONSTRATE MY POWER IN YOU, AND THAT MY NAME MIGHT BE PROCLAIMED THROUGHOUT THE EARTH.” So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who has resisted His will?” On the contrary, who are you, you foolish person, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction?”

(Romans 9:14-22 NAS20)

 

[Josheb]

You and all those who insist on inserting the worth alone after he word faith in the phrase, saved by grace through faith. It isn't there.

And I explained why the word is added and the explanation was ignored. I also observed the synergist's inclusion of the sinner's choice is an addition. It isn't there. That two has been ignored. Therefore, Post 54 is nothing more than a tu quoque fallacy.

1. God, and God alone are mentioned in the two (connected) passages.
2. There's no mention of the unregenerate's sinner's choice, and in the second passage it is explicitly excluded. No synergism is possible.
3. The addition of the sinner's volitional agency is just as much an addition to the text as the word "alone," but the word alone is consistent with the text that cite only God and exclude the sinner.

Those three points are not being addressed.

So long as you understand it is salvation by grace through faith that is not of yourselves.

Which makes it monergistic.

And in none of those cases is the molding about salvation or condemnation. The molding is in this earthly world not in the heavenly world to come.

Incorrect. This too was already addressed, which makes the post another argumentum and nauseam. First, the Ephesians text is overtly. about eternal life in the heavenly world, making Post 55 a blatant denial of scripture. Second, there is no salvation without mercy. Third, the covenant made with Christ was made with Abraham (Gal. 3:16). Fourth, Jacob is listed among those of Hebrews 11's faith who are made complete in the Church. Esau is not. Fifth, those not transformed in Christ on this side of the grave never make to eternal life in the heavenly world. Sixth, if all the clay has been corrupted by sin and not believed in Jesus then it is all already condemned (Jn. 3:19). Seventh, salvation is decidedly an honorable purpose, one that is easily reflected in Ephesians 2:10's "For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand so that we would walk in them."

How was that last one missed? Any one of those points proves fatal to the dissent, "in none of those cases is the molding about salvation or condemnation," and there are seven of them! Seven fatal flaws in two sentences!

Most think, since we never read in scripture that the man Esau actually ever served Jacob, that it is not about the men Jacob and Esau, but rather about then nations that come from Jacob and Esau.

Argumentum ad populum.

The text of Romans 9 specifies "the twins," and mentions specific individual's Abraham, Rebecca, Isaac, Jacob, Esau, Moses, and Pharoah. There's no mention of any nation. So... once again, what is plainly stated is ignored in favor of additions that are not stated.

The facts of the Romans 9 text are, "before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad, in order that God’s plan of election might stand." Before either individual (or nation) was born, God's plan of election stood by Him who calls and not by works.

Romans 9:9-13 ESV
For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad — in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls — she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Election is the only purpose mention in the passage.

The mercy and hardening are both in relation to His purpose here on earth,

Yes, and they are monergistic. The mercy is explicitly stated NOT to have ANYTHING to do with how the man wills or how the man walks (works).

not where they eventually end up.

That is a dispensationalist bias coming through. Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are mentioned as those made perfect in the Church (Heb. 11:40). They were not looking for an earthly home, but a city built by God.

Hebrews 11:9-10
By faith he lived as an alien in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, fellow heirs of the same promise; for he was looking for the city which has foundations, whose architect and builder is God.

That city is heavenly, not

The molding is in this earthly world not in the heavenly world to come.

The whole of scripture proves otherwise.

No, it is not. The predicate condition of the entire passage is that God has not unfaithful to His chosen nation when He doesn't save everyone in His chosen nation (Rom 9:6).

Incorrect. The word "nation" is nowhere found in Romans 9. In fact, Paul explicitly states not all Israel is Israel and the Israel that is Israel is the Israel of faith (NOT a nation of bloodline or geo-political nation-state status). In fact, there is only one verse that mentions any nation in the entire three-chapter exposition and that is found in Romans 10

Romans 10:19 ESV
But I ask, did Israel not understand? First Moses says, “I will make you jealous of those who are not a nation; with a foolish nation I will anger you.”

The only mention of the word nation is to repudiate Israel, concluding, "But of Israel he says, 'All day long I have held out my hands to a disobedient and contrary people.'"


So there is one sentence that is correct in Posts 54 and 55:

The mercy and hardening are both in relation to His purpose here on earth,

And everything else is incorrect.


Will I see the three op-relevant points of Posts 52. 53. and 55 addressed, or again ignored. Will I see those three points restated in this post ignored again? Will I read more scripture-denying eisegesis and logical fallacy?

1. God, and God alone are mentioned in the two (connected) passages.
2. There's no mention of the unregenerate's sinner's choice, and in the second passage it is explicitly excluded. No synergism is possible.
3. The addition of the sinner's volitional agency is just as much an addition to the text as the word "alone," but the word alone is consistent with the text that cite only God and exclude the sinner.

Those three points are not being addressed. This op is about whether or not the Bible says God chose and predestined some to salvation. The answer to that question is "Yes, but both monergists and synergists agree on that perticular point. Objective observation of the world tells us some are making it and most others are not. The divide is whether or not predestination is due solely to God's will, God's choice, and God's purpose, or is it also due to the unregenerate sinner's will and works."

Romans 9 makes it clear God's mercy is for the elect and it does NOT depend on the will of the man, nor his works. It depends (solely) on God's mercy. God's purpose is "according to His choice," and not the works of the one being elected. God's will is asserted monistically and man's will and works are expressly excluded.

1. God, and God alone are mentioned in the two (connected) passages.
2. There's no mention of the unregenerate's sinner's choice, and in the second passage it is explicitly excluded. No synergism is possible.
3. The addition of the sinner's volitional agency is just as much an addition to the text as the word "alone," but the word alone is consistent with the text that cite only God and exclude the sinner.

Those three points are not being addressed.

 

[Josheb]

Judas certainly did have a choice to make, and he made it. The Bible also says that he was the only apostle who was lost, in order to fulfil scripture. As Bible believers, we need to believe both of these truths.

God did not force him to decide either way. Judas made up his own mind and chose.

Yep.

If God decides you are going to stub your toe next Saturday, then every choice freely made will somehow conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday...... even though God could force that event against your will if He wanted to do so. What He cannot do is abdicate all power and sovereignty over His creation and hand it over to a sinner to run (because it would be sinful of Him to do so).

 

[JIM]

God did not force him to decide either way. Judas made up his own mind and chose.

Are you suggesting that by his free will Judas made up his own mind and chose?

 

[Josheb]

.

Does that mean all things past, present, and future are eternally present before God, or does that mean God is presently present at every point in time past, present, and future?

Would you explain the difference, please?

Sure.

In the first option God past, present, and future appear before Him at His position in eternity; all three observed simultaneously from the eternal vantage position before any of the events within them temporally occur. In the second option God is observing the event at the time the event occurs, not from His vantage position in eternity. The first is not time-dependent; the second is time (temporally and spatially) dependent.

Some argue God knows the future because He looked down the timeline and saw what will happen, thereby also knowing what will not happen. That is how He knows what to prophecy and that is how He knows who will choose salvation. It's an enormously faulty point of view.

 

[JIM]

Yep.

If God decides you are going to stub your toe next Saturday, then every choice freely made will somehow conspire to see that you stub your toe next Saturday...... even though God could force that event against your will if He wanted to do so.

Josheb, if God decides you are going to do something, that is in fact forcing you to do something. Period. That is not at all the same as God knowing ahead of time that you are going to do something.

What He cannot do is abdicate all power and sovereignty over His creation and hand it over to a sinner to run (because it would be sinful of Him to do so).

Are you denying God's permissive will in His power and sovereignty over His creation?