Does the Bible say God chose and predestinated some to salvation

[Alive]

I am not.
I just think their focus gets a little blurry and narrow minded at times.
But that doesn't mean I am at odds with everything in the reformed doctrine, and I appreciate all their hard work in trying to make sense of scripture as all true seekers do.


Well, this could open up a can of worms!

I think the Son that was before the foundation of the world was the true elected one, the true predestined one.
As God referred to Israel as His elected son and His son that was called out of Egypt is only a typology/pattern of Christ being the true elected Son called out of Egypt.

Who is being referenced here?
Matt. 24:24 (NAS20S) “For false christs and false prophets will arise and will provide great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.
Eph. 1:3 (NAS20S) Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons and daughters through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, with which He favored us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our wrongdoings, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He set forth in Him, 10 regarding His plan of the fullness of the times, to bring all things together in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. 11 In Him we also have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things in accordance with the plan of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in the Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of the promise, 14 who is a first installment of our inheritance, in regard to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

 

[Arial]

I think the Son that was before the foundation of the world was the true elected one, the true predestined one.
As God referred to Israel as His elected son and His son that was called out of Egypt is only a typology/pattern of Christ being the true elected Son called out of Egypt.

That leaves out the "those the Father has given me" in the passage.

 

[Tambora]

That leaves out the "those the Father has given me" in the passage.

But there was one that the Father gave Him that was lost.

John 17:12 KJV
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[prism]

So then, do you consider election, or God’s choice of men, unfair, even thouh Paul said it's not? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:14.

 

[Arial]

But there was one that the Father gave Him that was lost.

John 17:12 KJV
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

That passage shows what Judas was chosen for and it was not for redemption.

But that aside, I posted what I did because of the central focus that was given on John 17:24. And full confession---in my haste my response was to a passage in John 10, not John 17.

Which I will now bring into the conversation in connection with the OP title question.

John 10:25-20 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

 

[makesends]

It is unfair if one defines fair as all getting the same thing. What it is not, is unjust---which is a common accusation against God, when the doctrine of election is rejected. Some get mercy, the rest receive justice.

Agreed.

Like Jesus' story of the workers in the field, at the end of the day, the master is not unjust to give to each according to their work, yet to be generous to some, with what is his to give. It may even be notable or significant, that his generosity is particularly visible when given to the 'latecomers'.

 

[Alive]

That passage shows what Judas was chosen for and it was not for redemption.

But that aside, I posted what I did because of the central focus that was given on John 17:24. And full confession---in my haste my response was to a passage in John 10, not John 17.

Which I will now bring into the conversation in connection with the OP title question.

John 10:25-20 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe. The works that I do in my Father's name bear witness about me, but you do not believe because you are not among my sheep. My sheep hear my voice and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.

Amen! And what a wonderful comfort it is!

 

[David1701]

But there was one that the Father gave Him that was lost.

John 17:12 KJV
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Judas was the exception that proves the rule; and he was only the exception in order to fulfil scripture, because he had been ordained to perdition.

 

[Tambora]

Judas was the exception that proves the rule; and he was only the exception in order to fulfil scripture, because he had been ordained to perdition.

Perhaps.
But if exceptions prove the rule then any rule can have exceptions.

 

[David1701]

Perhaps.
But if exceptions prove the rule then any rule can have exceptions.

As long as those exceptions are clearly declared in scripture, as Judas being ordained to perdition is.

 

[Tambora]

As long as those exceptions are clearly declared in scripture, as Judas being ordained to perdition is.

Did Judas make the choice to betray Jesus or did God?

 

[David1701]

Did Judas make the choice to betray Jesus or did God?

Judas, of course; but God foreordained that he would make that choice.

 

[makesends]

Did Judas make the choice to betray Jesus or did God?

Both. Do you suppose that God created Judas before, or after, he found out that Judas would do that?

 

[Tambora]

Judas, of course; but God foreordained that he would make that choice.

So God made the choice for Judas before Judas could make a choice.

 

[Tambora]

Both.

So both are responsible.

 

[JIM]

Does the Bible say God chose and predestined some to salvation?

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph 1:4-5.


The answer is obviously a "Yes."

So then, do you consider election, or God’s choice of men, unfair, even thouh Paul said it's not? What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. Rom 9:14.

I think the obvious answer to your question is yes. However, the real question is not whether God chose and predestined some to salvation. The question is on what basis did God chose and predestine some to salvation.

 

[Carbon]

I think the obvious answer to your question is yes. However, the real question is not whether God chose and predestined some to salvation. The question is on what basis did God chose and predestine some to salvation.

Okay then, tell me, what basis?

 

[JIM]

Okay then, tell me, what basis?

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good.....

 

[Carbon]

Rom 8:28 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good.....

So only those who God loves then? Okay

 

[JIM]

So only those who God loves then? Okay

God certainly knew from before all creation who would love Him.