Do a Covenant of Works and a Covenant of Grace Exist?

[prism]

The only way for someone to attain a character trait is through faith, but what it means for someone to attain a character trait is for them to become a doer of that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works in order to to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from becoming a doer of courageous works, and the same is true for righteousness and every other character trait. This is why the same faith by which we are declared righteous apart from works of the law does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God’s law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31). In other words, everyone who has faith will be declared righteous and everyone who has faith is a doer of Gods law, which is how Paul can deny that we can earn our righteousness as the result of our works (Romans 4:1-5) while maintaining that only the doers of God’s law will be declared righteous (Romans 2:13).

I don't get this, I give you a Scripture dealing with grace and works in the light of imputed righteousness. Dou you disagree with Rom 4:4-5?
People's traits change through the New Birth, otherwise please define 'trait'.

 

[Mr GLee]

So........ not relevant. Got it.

His work of faith . .Not relevant ?

 

[Mr GLee]

The only way for someone to attain a character trait is through faith, but what it means for someone to attain a character trait is for them to become a doer of that trait. For example, the only way for someone to become courageous is through faith apart from being required to have first done a certain amount of courageous works in order to to earn it as the result, but it would be contradictory for someone to become courageous apart from

Faith is power as a work or labor of Love

The law of faith (belief )

(1)Hear the living abiding words of God that empowers a person to believe and (2) do the work required to please the father .

The kind of daily spiritual (invisible) food for ones new soul. That the apostles knew not of

The key both to reveal (Hear) and empower dying mankind (to do) .

Called the hidden manna in Rev 2:17..

John 4:33-35King James Version33 Therefore said the disciples one to another, Hath any man brought him ought to eat? Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Faith believing something will happen "let there be" and "it was God alone good"

Many say Gods has no faith (belief) There focus is on the dying seen, temporal historical not the invisible faith that works in those yoked with Christ

1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

If a person separates the labor or work of Christ love from his (belief faith) "Let there be" .Then nothing changes nothing (dead useless faith) that cannot perform its promises

Satan goal to separate faith (unseen) as a plan from the work and "it was good"

The author of out of sight (Christ labor) out of mind . they mafe jesu into a cirdus seal work some mgic preform a miracle then whe we se with our own eyes then we wil belive (comt faith) for a micros second

John 4:48Then said Jesus unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will not believe.

John 6:30They said therefore unto him, What sign shewest thou then, that we may see, and believe thee? what dost thou work?

They are the ones that say faith is not a work to both will and do . They say what about me surely my flesh profit for something? .

Philippians 2:13 For it is God which (faithfully) worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without murmurings and disputings:

Jesus the Son man did the will of God. . . empowered by the father with delight .Other like Jonah dragged, kicking against the pricks and then after be moved to preach he wanted to die hoping God is a Racist man .

Simply God is not served by human hands of dying mankind as a will . He has no needs but satisfies all of his powerful let there works of faith .

 

[Josheb]

His work of faith . .Not relevant ?

What is the subject specified in the op?

 

[Soyeong]

I don't get this, I give you a Scripture dealing with grace and works in the light of imputed righteousness. Dou you disagree with Rom 4:4-5?
People's traits change through the New Birth, otherwise please define 'trait'.

I agree with Romans 4:4-5. There is a difference between the way to become righteous and what it means to become righteous. The one and only way to become righteous is through faith and what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in the same way that what it means to become courage is to become a doer of courageous works. The say that God is righteous means that He is a doer of righteous works and it would be contradictory for God to be righteous if He were not, so the gift of bring imputed with the righteousness of God is the gift of becoming a doer of the righteousness of God in obedience to His law.

 

[prism]

The one and only way to become righteous is through faith and what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in the same way that what it means to become courage is to become a doer of courageous works.

You never did define what you mean by 'trait'.

You sound like you're saying that a person becomes righteous by faith + doing righteousness.
My stance would be...

Romans 4:5-6 NKJV
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [6] just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

I don't see how 'imputation apart from works' can coexist with 'doing righteousness in order to be righteous. Again, your definition of 'trait' may help greatly.

 

[Mr GLee]

What is the subject specified in the op?

Does a Covenant of Works and a Covenant of Grace Exist?

It is all together one thing

It depends whose faith (let there be)

Faith is power

By Christ's work of faith "let there be" and "the grace of Christ is good."

A work of His Faith (belief)

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works (Human ), lest any man should boast.

James 2 :1My brethren, have not the faith of (Belonging to) our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons.(dying mankind)

If they have the faith or work of Christ in respect to there own selves (dying mankind) they blasphem his name .God is not a man as us

James 2 :7 Do not they blaspheme that worthy name by the which ye are called?

An example. My wife by faith (belief ) makes up written list and loving commands me to go on a mission as a apostle (sent messenger ) to the super market .Not adding or subtracting her work of faith was made complete. I received the reward of her apostle two home made peanut butter cookies and a cold glass of milk .

The law of Faith is a work.

 

[Josheb]

Does a Covenant of Works and a Covenant of Grace Exist?

Yes, and from where do those terms come?

The law of Faith is a work.

So, faith would go under the Covenant of Works category?

 

[Mr GLee]

Yes, and from where do those terms come?

So, faith would go under the Covenant of Works category?

The covenant of Christ's labor of love or called a work of his faithfulness. declared the covenant of grace as a reward of his faithfulness .

He give us little of his reward and a desire to increase that unseen power.

In that way yoked with him we have a reward of the better things that accompanies ones salvation .He will not forget the good works we can perform according to the power of faithful name.

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

 

[Josheb]

The covenant of Christ's labor of love or called a work of his faithfulness. declared the covenant of grace as a reward of his faithfulness .

He give us little of his reward and a desire to increase that unseen power.

In that way yoked with him we have a reward of the better things that accompanies ones salvation .He will not forget the good works we can perform according to the power of faithful name.

Hebrew 6: 9 But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labour of love, which ye have shewed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister.

That is not an answer to my question.

 

[Soyeong]

You never did define what you mean by 'trait'.

You sound like you're saying that a person becomes righteous by faith + doing righteousness.
My stance would be...

Romans 4:5-6 NKJV
But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, [6] just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works:

I don't see how 'imputation apart from works' can coexist with 'doing righteousness in order to be righteous. Again, your definition of 'trait' may help greatly.

The way for someone to attain a character trait is different from what it means for them to attain it. The only way to for someone to attain a character trait is through faith and what it means for them to attain it is for them to become a doer of that trait. In other words, the way to attain the character traits of God is by believing that we ought to be in His likeness and what it means for someone to be in His likeness is for them to be a doer of His character traits. Saying that God imputes righteousness apart from works is denying that there are any works that we are required to have done first in order to earn righteousness as the result, but is not saying that we can become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works because that is what it means to become righteous. In 1 John 3:4-10, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous and those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to it are not born again, which again is not speaking about the way to become righteous, but about the behavior of someone who has become righteous.

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness and a wage as the result of His obedience. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Issac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as that is the way to express faith, but he was not declared righteous by his works insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The phrases may not occur but the concept is all throughout Scripture in the form of Law/Gospel.

Amen! The word Covenant or (Berith) appears in the Bible over 300 times in the OT and more than 30 times in the NT. The Covenant language is everywhere in Scripture.

 

[Ladodgers6]

The way for someone to attain a character trait is different from what it means for them to attain it. The only way to for someone to attain a character trait is through faith and what it means for them to attain it is for them to become a doer of that trait. In other words, the way to attain the character traits of God is by believing that we ought to be in His likeness and what it means for someone to be in His likeness is for them to be a doer of His character traits.

Though I understand what you are saying. A leopard cannot change its spots. By nature we do what we are; meaning since the fall, man has fallen into the abyss of darkness, evil, suffering, lust and are now sons of disobedience. This is why sinners need to be redeem from the outside of themselves. The traits or new behaviors they become is because God regenerates them from within by His Spirit. To say, they can believe on their own is an error. Scripture teaches that man is in only two places; either in Adam or in Christ; either dead in sin or alive in Christ by the Spirit. And from this comes faith, trust, justification, sanctification, discipleship, doxology.
​

Saying that God imputes righteousness apart from works is denying that there are any works that we are required to have done first in order to earn righteousness as the result, but is not saying that we can become righteous apart from becoming a doer of righteous works because that is what it means to become righteous. In 1 John 3:4-10, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous and those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to it are not born again, which again is not speaking about the way to become righteous, but about the behavior of someone who has become righteous.

Well Soyeong, you obviously haven't heard the glorious good news of the Gospel for the ungodly! The Law or human works cannot redeem them anymore that a leopard can change his spots. To suggest that it is the works of dead men (sinners) that justify them is the lies of the Devil. Again trying to deceive and pervert the Gospel promise. And this Gospel Promise is that what the Law could not do; which is redeem sinners because the Law is weak through the flesh. The Law only brings death because of our sin! The only works that can redeem us is the works of Christ! But you never mention Christ and His finished works, only the works of men, like the Pharisees and Scribes who seek their own glory to boast before men and God himself. And Christ rebuked them and called them white washed tombs filled of deadman bones. The Promise gives freely the gift of Christ's righteousness. Which for whatever reason think this is impossible or a lie. Well, Soyeong, this is the good news for the ungodly who believe in Him who justifies the ungodly. Paul doesn't say that God justifies the godly man but the ungodly in Romans 4:5. For what does a righteous godly man need to be redeemed and justified? Christ came to heal the sick, and to save sinners. ​

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness and a wage as the result of His obedience. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Issac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as that is the way to express faith, but he was not declared righteous by his works insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

But his obeying is not why he is declared righteous! You are conflating and perverting the truth here. Scripture states that Abraham BELIEVED God and it was counted as righteousness; he was declared right then, "Righteous" before God. Not by his works! 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. Why not before God? Because Faith Soyeong removes all human boasting? 27 Then what becomes of our boasting? It is excluded. By what kind of law? By a law of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 For we hold that one is justified by faith apart from works of the law. It is crystal clear Soyeong that our works do not justify us only the righteousness of another that is received through faith Alone apart from our works, so that no one can boast!​

 

[prism]

he way for someone to attain a character trait is different from what it means for them to attain it.

Are you sure that's what you want to say?

and what it means for someone to be in His likeness is for them to be a doer of His character traits.

How much 'doing' of His character traits until someone attains being in His likeness?

Saying that God imputes righteousness apart from works is denying that there are any works that we are required to have done first in order to earn righteousness as the result,

It's what Scripture affirms...

Romans 4:5 KJV
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:28 NKJV
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In this case I would not make a distinction between impute (consider/count as righteous) and justify (declare righteous)

In 1 John 3:4-10, everyone who is a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law is righteous even as they are righteous and those who are not doers of righteous works in obedience to it are not born again, which again is not speaking about the way to become righteous, but about the behavior of someone who has become righteous.

In this case one must ask, "Do we do good in order to attain righteousness (the new birth) OR because we have the new birth we do righteousness"?

While it is true that Abraham believed God, so he was declared righteous (Genesis 15:6), it is also true that he believed God, so he obeyed God's command to offer Isaac (Hebrews 11:17), so the same faith by which he was declared righteous was also expressed by being an obeyer of God, but he did not earn his righteousness and a wage as the result of His obedience. In James 2:21-24, it quotes Genesis 15:6 to support saying that Abraham was declared righteous by his works when he offered Issac, that his faith was active along with his works, and his faith completed his works, so he was declared righteous by his works insofar as that is the way to express faith, but he was not declared righteous by his works insofar as they were earning it as a wage.

What about from the time he was declared righteous to the time Abraham offered Isaac, he took nephew Lot with him in disobedience to God's directive to leave his family for a land God would show him; he nearly gave Sarai over to adultery to save his neck; listened to Sarai to take Hagar to kickstart God's promise to make his seed as a multitude. James as Abraham's life, shows fruitfullness and has little to do with justification or imputation.

 

[Soyeong]

Are you sure that's what you want to say?

Indeed, or in other words the way to attain a character trait is different than what we are becoming when we attain it. For example, the only way for someone to attain courageousness is through faith and what someone is becoming when they attain courageousness is a doer of courageous works. It would be inaccurate to describe someone as courageous who is not a doer of courageous works.

How much 'doing' of His character traits until someone attains being in His likeness?

None. Character traits are not something that can be earned as a wage as the result of our works, but rather the only way to attain them is through faith.

It's what Scripture affirms...

Romans 4:5 KJV
But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

Romans 3:28 NKJV
Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law.

In this case I would not make a distinction between impute (consider/count as righteous) and justify (declare righteous)

Again, those verses are denying that we can earn our justification/righteousness as a wage as the result of our works, but are not denying that being counted as justified/righteous means being counted as a doer of righteous works. The same faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

In this case one must ask, "Do we do good in order to attain righteousness (the new birth) OR because we have the new birth we do righteousness"?

Neither one is the cause or the result of the other. I'm speaking about what is happening in the present, not about a chain of events over time. Someone who has the new birth is a doer of good works in the present. In Titus 2:11-13, our salvation is described as being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly, so it is not the case that we are required to have first done those works in order to earn our salvation as the result or that we are required to do those works as the result of having first been saved, but rather God graciously teaching us to be a doer of those works is the aspect of His gift of salvation that we are experiencing in the present.

What about from the time he was declared righteous to the time Abraham offered Isaac, he took nephew Lot with him in disobedience to God's directive to leave his family for a land God would show him; he nearly gave Sarai over to adultery to save his neck; listened to Sarai to take Hagar to kickstart God's promise to make his seed as a multitude. James as Abraham's life, shows fruitfullness and has little to do with justification or imputation.

Being righteous is about being a doer of righteous works, not about being sinless.

 

[prism]

Again, those verses are denying that we can earn our justification/righteousness as a wage as the result of our works, but are not denying that being counted as justified/righteous means being counted as a doer of righteous works. The same faith by which we are justified does not abolish our need to be a doer of righteous works in obedience to God's law, but rather our faith upholds it (Romans 3:28-31).

Again, how many 'righteous works' are needed before one is considered a doer of righteous works?
The faith by which we are justified is the same faith which works righteousness.

Romans 1:17 KJV
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

 

[Soyeong]

Again, how many 'righteous works' are needed before one is considered a doer of righteous works?
The faith by which we are justified is the same faith which works righteousness.

Romans 1:17 KJV
For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

Again, the only way to become a doer of righteous works is through faith and there is no amount of righteous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn it as the result. In the context of Habakkuk 2, the righteous who shall live by faith are contrasted with those who do not obey God's law. Moreover, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refrain to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. We can take actions that express faith, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 and with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so the significance of our works has nothing to do with trying to earn our righteousness, but rather it is the way to express our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are declared righteous.

 

[Ladodgers6]

Indeed, or in other words the way to attain a character trait is different than what we are becoming when we attain it. For example, the only way for someone to attain courageousness is through faith and what someone is becoming when they attain courageousness is a doer of courageous works. It would be inaccurate to describe someone as courageous who is not a doer of courageous works.

Aren't you missing why one needs to be reborn in the first place? See, Soyeong you think man is inherently good and possesses the attributes needed to save him/herself. This is called Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism. Fallen man is lost in sin. Already condemned by One Man's Sin that brought sin, death and condemnation on us all.

You say one needs to attain a character trait. Okay, how can they do this without the Spirit? And furthermore you are placing all your eggs in human effort to be justified, instead of trusting God and His Promise word of the Gospel that gives what the Law demands of us in His Son. For Christ is the end of the Law for righteousness.

You will know when you have the Gospel understood correctly in regards to the justification of the sinner, when people start you charge you with antinomianism. As they did Paul. Because the Gospel Promise is not earned, or deserved, but given by the Grace and Mercy of God, as a free gift. This is why Paul makes a contrast between works and gift in Romans 4. Either a debt from works is owed or a free gift is given freely. But who can boast before God about their works that incurs a debt from God? Sinners are in a misery state of sin, and are bound by sin, and only Christ can frees us from it.

You place too much good faith in man, Soyeong. Instead you should place your hope and faith in another, namely Christ Jesus and His finished works. As Christ's final words were, "It is finished"!​

 

[Mr GLee]

That is not an answer to my question.

I would offer.

Satan would make dying human no faith (belief) as the source by which we could believe God .

Faith is power either to the good or the evil

Faith = as it is written the eternal unseen with human eyes Power

The word faith in the scripture always refers to his faithful labor of love working in his prophets Every place it is listed represents the power of Christ that works in those yoked with his labor of love work of faith the unseen invisible God

Every place the word faith is could be bolded in red except one. No faith

Deuteronomy 32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very froward generation, children in whom is no faith. (belief)

2 Thessalonians 2" 9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Christ's powerful "Let there be" faith is needed to defeat the power of lying oral tradition of dying mankind (false prophecy)

The "let there be" faith does go under the Covenant of His Works category. His labor of love ."Let there be" is not without a proof and "it was good power" . law of faith

Two powers. One lying the other power born again spirit life giving.

Romans 3:26-28King James Version26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just (death), and the justifier (life) of him which believeth in Jesus. Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith (Christ in us) without the deeds of the law.. . . (The letter death) .

Romans 7:6 But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Proverbs 18:21 Death and life are in the power of the tongue: and they that love it shall eat the fruit thereof.

 

[prism]

Again, the only way to become a doer of righteous works is through faith and there is no amount of righteous works that someone is required to have done first in order to earn it as the result. In the context of Habakkuk 2, the righteous who shall live by faith are contrasted with those who do not obey God's law. Moreover, in Isaiah 51:7, the righteous are those on whose heart is God's law, and in 1 John 3:4-7, everyone who is a doer of righteous works is righteous even as they are righteous, so the righteous living by faith does not refrain to a manner of living that is not in obedience to God's law. We can take actions that express faith, such as with the examples of faith listed in Hebrews 11 and with James 2:18 saying that he would show his faith through his works, so the significance of our works has nothing to do with trying to earn our righteousness, but rather it is the way to express our faith and it is by that faith alone that we are declared righteous.

Romans 3:9-18 NKJV
What then? Are we better than they? Not at all. For we have previously charged both Jews and Greeks that they are all under sin. [10] As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; [11] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. [12] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one." [13] "Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit"; "The poison of asps is under their lips"; [14] "Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness." [15] "Their feet are swift to shed blood; [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways; [17] And the way of peace they have not known." [18]
"There is no fear of God before their eyes."

In other words, no one is counted righteous apart from faith in Jesus Christ.

I'll leave with a Steve Garvey quote @Ladodgers6 ...

"You place too much good faith in man, Soyeong. Instead you should place your hope and faith in another, namely Christ Jesus and His finished works. As Christ's final words were, "It is finished"!"