Faith and baptism give the grace of justification not salvationDo you suppose that you are not
No reason to "suppose" Don, just read what the Bible has to say and choose to take God at His word
Getting back to opening idea of "conditional" perseverance, since the RCC teaches that infants who cannot "believe" are, nevertheless, "saved" when they are water baptized, the idea that all of these baptized infants will also/eventually choose to come to true, saving faith (much less persevere to the end) is a notion that is obviously and blatantly absurd (one that no one, based upon life experience alone, would buy). So, I have no difficulty understanding the problem that you have with the Biblical teaching that all who are truly saved will also persevere.
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The Bible does not teach automatic perseverance???Do you suppose that you are not
No reason to "suppose" Don, just read what the Bible has to say and choose to take God at His word
Getting back to opening idea of "conditional" perseverance, since the RCC teaches that infants who cannot "believe" are, nevertheless, "saved" when they are water baptized, the idea that all of these baptized infants will also/eventually choose to come to true, saving faith (much less persevere to the end) is a notion that is obviously and blatantly absurd (one that no one, based upon life experience alone, would buy). So, I have no difficulty understanding the problem that you have with the Biblical teaching that all who are truly saved will also persevere.
Christians are not allowed to listen to heretics
Who do we confess our sins to?
Can I be saved without a priest
Papa Smurf
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Justification and salvation, while technically different terms, mean the same thing in this case.
For instance, as the Apostle (who first wrote the following words to the saints of God who were living and attending church in Ephesus) tells us, by "GRACE" you have been "SAVED" .. Ephesians 2:8.
Granted, while God says that it is by "grace" that we have been "saved" (not "justified"), I believe that He could have used the word "justified" instead of "saved" in v8 (since there would have been little to no difference in v8's meaning if He had).
--Papa Smurf
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Off course it doesn't, the nature of the word "perseverance" speaks of something that requires a time and effort (a lifetime in this case) to complete.
That said, it is the true saints of God alone who persevere in the faith to the end, ALL, that is, who are drawn by the Father and given to His Son, as NONE of these (according to the Scriptures) will ever be lost .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 44, because God will see to it that we are not .. e.g. John 10:27-28; Philippians 1:6; 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24; Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 5:13; Jude 24-25).
--Papa Smurf
"All that the Father gives Me will come to Me and, of all that He has given Me, I LOSE NOTHING, but raise it up on the last day" ~John 6:37-40 (excerpt)
.
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This is why it is so vital for us to listen to & learn from teachers/preachers like Spurgeon, because they teach the truth of God to us from the Scriptures, and by doing so, make it FAR easier for us to immediately/quickly recognize heresy for what it is
To God, of course, as He is both the One we sin against, as well the only One capable of forgiving us of our sins (and purifying/cleansing us from ALL unrighteousness, to boot) .. e.g. 1 John 1:9!
We are also told to confess our sins to one another, and to pray for each other too (if the sins that we commit are against our brothers or sisters in Christ, as well).
Of course you can! As the Lord Jesus in.........................
John 5
24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
..........and the Apostle Paul in......................
Romans 10
9 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved;
10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
..............................................both tell us plainly!
God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Redemption, Justification, Sanctification, and Salvation!
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Purification: no unclean thing enter the heavenly realms of glory!
Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Glorification:
Suffering with Christ is required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him!
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endure to the end in union with Christ and his saints by grace with good works.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
Perpetual faith: Jn 3:16
Abide in Christ: Jn 15:4
Endure to the end: Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”
Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13
Short version
Salvation is not a only doctrine a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, giving grace and union (by faith and baptism / water and the spirit) with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ! Must be in Christ born again by faith and baptism, Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 united to God and His communion of saints thru Christ the mediator and the grace of God!
Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 eph 2:1-8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.
Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21
Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29
Purification
Glorification
Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
Glorification:
Suffering required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Redemption: 100 percent the work of God, thru the life, death, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ! All mankind are redeemed in Christ! Eph 2
Galatians 2:16 3:13
Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law...
Christ alone accomplished the redemption of mankind apart from any works on our part!
(Redemption is not Salvation)
Rom 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.
Justification: our acceptance of redemption thru faith and baptism! Become a disciple and member of Christ and His Church! Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 Mk 16:16 He who believes and is baptized shall be saved. 1 Corinthians 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. Galatians 3:27
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Sanctification: the life of grace applied to our souls in the sacraments, prayer, virtue and good works, the just living by faith, and faith working thru love! Phil 1:29 called to suffer with Christ.
All done in Christ thru His grace! Jn 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Purification: no unclean thing enter the heavenly realms of glory!
Salvation: a christian in the state if grace at the moment of death we enter into the salvation of the Lord! Mt 24:44-47 faithful servant! Jn 15:1-5 abide in me. Mt 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
Heb 3:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Heb 6:11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:
Heb 4:14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Rom 13:11 ...for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.
Glorification:
Suffering with Christ is required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Justification and salvation are not the same rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Jn 15:1-5 abide in Him!
Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endure to the end in union with Christ and his saints by grace with good works.
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 Titus 3:5 acts 22:16 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
Perpetual faith: Jn 3:16
Abide in Christ: Jn 15:4
Endure to the end: Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Eph 2:8
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
eph 2:8 does not refer to you’re salvation it’s already past tense when Paul wrote it so it refers something that has already occurred, the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from our involvement. “Not of yourselves”
Christian faith includes baptism Jn 3:5 by water and the spirit and not faith alone. Mk 16:16 acts 2:38 acts 8:26 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:20-21
And charity 1 cor 13:2 and 1 cor 13/13
Short version
Salvation is not a only doctrine a doctrine to be believed, but a sacrifice / atonement, giving grace and union (by faith and baptism / water and the spirit) with the person of Christ the mediator, members of Christ! Must be in Christ born again by faith and baptism, Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 united to God and His communion of saints thru Christ the mediator and the grace of God!
Redemption :
The redemption was accomplished by Christ with no participation on our part. All mankind is redeemed.
Lk 2:11 Jn 1:29 rm 5:8 eph 2:1-8 1 pet 1:21-23
God gives all men sufficient truth and grace for salvation.
Justification:
then if we accept His redemption we are justified, born again by faith and baptism. Mk 16:16 Jn 3:5 acts 2:38 8:36 Titus 3:5 1 pet 3:21
Sanctification:
Members of Christ and his church by grace we practice good works (prayer, alms, fasting, virtues charity, suffering other sacraments etc. until death. Phil 1:29
Purification
Glorification
Salvation:
Is for those who are faithful and die in the grace of God united to Christ and in his saints at death enter into eternal salvation! Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13
Titus 2:14
Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, (redemption) and purify unto himself a peculiar people, (justification / baptism notice purify / wash) Jn 3:5 zealous of good works. (Sanctification) Jn 15:4 abide in Christ Matt 3:16 believes (present tense) Matt 24:13 endures to the end Shall be saved.
(Salvation)
Glorification:
Suffering required for glorification with Christ!
Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
It says saved cos redemption is part of salvation and the beginning of salvation
Eph 2:8 has nothing whatsoever to do with you and your acceptance of Christ!
It is past tense and refers to the redemption accomplished by Christ apart from us, “not of yourselves” and the faith is not your faith!
Thanks
Peter speaks of these very things
2 pet 3:16
We still are made in the image and likeness of God (intellect & will)
Self determination and free will and can reject Christ and cast off the yoke of our baptism or by deadly sin be separated from God and Gis grace and to die unrepentant in this state means eternal damnation!
There can be no heavenly reward or hell punishment with “free will”!
No righteousness or iniquity without “free will”!
Dogma revealed truth taught by the apostolic church. Matt 28:19
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
Thanks
Self determination and free will and can reject Christ and cast off the yoke of our baptism or by deadly sin be separated from God and Gis grace and to die unrepentant in this state means eternal damnation!
There can be no heavenly reward or hell punishment with “free will”!
No righteousness or iniquity without “free will”!
Dogma revealed truth taught by the apostolic church. Matt 28:19
122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.
Thanks
A two sided coin!
On God’s side His promises are absolute and God will always be faithful!
2 Tim 2:13
Our side of the coin has an if!
A big “if”!
Rom 11:22
Col 1:21-23
Col 2-5
Heb 12:22-25
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 3:4-6
Jn 2:24-25
2 Tim 2:11-13
Rom 8:17
Matt 28:20
Acts 1:2
Jn 15:4
Mk 13:13
Matt 24:14
We still have free will and can choose (volition) to reject Christ and the faith and renounce our baptism
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Thks
On God’s side His promises are absolute and God will always be faithful!
2 Tim 2:13
Our side of the coin has an if!
A big “if”!
Rom 11:22
Col 1:21-23
Col 2-5
Heb 12:22-25
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 3:4-6
Jn 2:24-25
2 Tim 2:11-13
Rom 8:17
Matt 28:20
Acts 1:2
Jn 15:4
Mk 13:13
Matt 24:14
We still have free will and can choose (volition) to reject Christ and the faith and renounce our baptism
2 Timothy 2:12
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:
Thks
I ask these questions cos they amply illustrate good points!
It shows just how wrong we can be!
No we cannot be saved without a priest, it is absolutely necessary cos the only savior of mankind is a priest! Heb 7:17
Like Saul we think we cannot be wrong, he thought we was acting righteously and doing the will of God until the blinding light of christ appeared and he saw just how blind he was!
We must have instruction from Christ and this extends to his church. See below
We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)
(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;
“Not by scripture alone”!
That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6
And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42
One shepherd and one fold! Jn 10:16
The truth of the Christian faith and the church are of divine origin and cannot be reformed!
Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14
Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6
Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21
Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18
Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23
Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16
For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!
The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!
Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19
How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!
It is impossible to reject the church or her teaching without rejecting Christ who founded the church and revealed her teaching!
You cannot reject the kingdom established by the king and say I obey and submit to the king!
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)
Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24
Thks
It shows just how wrong we can be!
No we cannot be saved without a priest, it is absolutely necessary cos the only savior of mankind is a priest! Heb 7:17
Like Saul we think we cannot be wrong, he thought we was acting righteously and doing the will of God until the blinding light of christ appeared and he saw just how blind he was!
We must have instruction from Christ and this extends to his church. See below
We must believe and obey both Christ and the church He founded on the apostles (Matt 16:18-19) to teach and sanctify all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)
(Not scripture alone)
Sacred Scripture according to the churches cannon and interpretation? Yes!
Scripture alone? No!
Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things by, by whom also he made the worlds;
“Not by scripture alone”!
That’s the nail in the coffin of “Sola scriptura” it is dead and buried, “false doctrine” the doctrine of demons like all the sola’s!
For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Jn 1:17
Jesus Christ is the way, the truth, and the life! Jn 14:6
And this extends to His apostolic church, Christ and His church are one and inseparable! Acts 9:4 Jn 15:5 eph 5:32 acts 2:42
One shepherd and one fold! Jn 10:16
The truth of the Christian faith and the church are of divine origin and cannot be reformed!
Jesus Christ is the Light of the world! Jn 8:12
Apostolic church the light of the world! Matt 5:14
Must Hear Jesus Christ! Matt 17:5
Acts 3:23
Must Hear the apostolic church! Matt 18:17 1 Jn 4:6
Authority of Jesus Christ! Matt 28:17
Authority of the apostles! Jn 20:21
Jesus Christ has Reconciliation!
2 cor 5:19
Apostles have ministry of Reconciliation! 2 cor 5:18
Jesus Christ have power to forgive mens sins! Lk 5:20 Jn
Apostles have power to forgive mens sins! Jn 20:23
Jesus Christ is the truth! Jn 14:6
The apostolic church is the pillar of truth! 1 Tim 3:16
For the apostolic authority in Holy church decided and decreed (bound on earth / bound in heaven) the canon of Scripture, and is the only authentic interpreter of scripture!
The Christian faith is revealed by Christ!
Jesus Christ before ascending to heaven gave His apostles the fullness of truth, the apostolic church our mother and teacher is commanded by Him to teach and to sanctify with her sacraments (the promise of the spirit) all men unto eternal salvation! We are commanded to believe and obey! Matt 28:19
How can the Protestant concept: “sacred scripture is the only infallible source of truth” be true? There must be some infallible source that must tell us what is the canon of scripture & has authority to interpret scripture!
It is impossible to reject the church or her teaching without rejecting Christ who founded the church and revealed her teaching!
You cannot reject the kingdom established by the king and say I obey and submit to the king!
Jesus Christ founded the new covenant church to teach and sanctify (baptize) all men unto eternal salvation! (Matt 28:19)
Christ and His church are one!
((Inseparable unity))
Acts 9:4 Lk 10:16 eph 5:32 Isa 53:5 Jn 15:5 eph 5:24
Thks
How are you going to receive absolution from God?This is why it is so vital for us to listen to & learn from teachers/preachers like Spurgeon, because they teach the truth of God to us from the Scriptures, and by doing so, make it FAR easier for us to immediately/quickly recognize heresy for what it is
To God, of course, as He is both the One we sin against, as well the only One capable of forgiving us of our sins (and purifying/cleansing us from ALL unrighteousness, to boot) .. e.g. 1 John 1:9!
We are also told to confess our sins to one another, and to pray for each other too (if the sins that we commit are against our brothers or sisters in Christ, as well).
Of course you can! As the Lord Jesus in.........................
John 524 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
..........and the Apostle Paul in......................
Romans 109 If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart a person believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation.
..............................................both tell us plainly!
God bless you!!
--Papa Smurf
We must confess to Christ who acts vicariously in his ordained apostles!
Jn 29:21-23
21 Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Thanks
Free will the power to both (the key) hear and do the wil of the pleasure of the Father *invisible head.
Its the kind of food the disciples knew not of They did not understand the spiritual unseen understanding of the parable
Conditional love, Christ' The one and only with power to raise the dead
1 Corhtitains 13: 4-7 (Christ's) Love is very patient and (therefore it can) kind, (because it is kind) never jealous or envious, never boastful or (falsely )proud,*(venerable) never haughty or selfish or rude. Love (Christ's) does not demand its own way. It is not irritable or touchy. It does not hold grudges and will hardly even notice when others do it wrong. It is never glad about injustice, but rejoices whenever truth wins out. If you love someone, you will be loyal to him no matter what the cost. You will always believe in him,(not the Pope) always expect the best of him, (not Peter the Pope ) and always stand your ground in defending him.. . . . . . . (With the Spirit of sola scriptura) it defends us.
Just as in the same way the CCC book of the law of the fathers oral tradition of dying mankind defends them. When it comes to the unseen things of God, it defends us .Law of nature. The strong strengthened by the grace survive
Which god defends the CCC?
