CrowCross
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What part?
A short catechism
- Thread starter donadams
- Start date
Verse matt 25:14-30
CrowCross
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Of course not.
CrowCross
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The servant was never saved in your interpretation of the analogy.
Is baptism required for salvation?
If he was he lost his salvation
30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
With the others he received the talent a type of grace but did not increase it by good works
What’s the difference between natural works that are not meritorious and good works that are meritorious and increase grace?
Thks
CrowCross
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Water baptism is absolutely not a requirement for salvation.
CrowCross
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He pretty much proved he was not a servant after all.
The difference is people like YOU do "good works" as a means of hopefully obtaining eternal life. Your works are basically a selfish works designed to prosper YOU....that is have God award YOU salvation because of YOUR meritorious works.
The works performed by a truly saved Christian are done for the glory of God. These works are a result of or by-product of ones salvation.
What do you do with the following verse....
Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.
Are you the way, the truth, and the life now?
Or pope with great pontifications?
Why should I believe you?
Christ says it is required:
Mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved.
Jn 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
Scripture says it is required
1 pet 3:20-21
20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
21 The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:
And since it is required it is included in what we believe in Jn 3:16
We must believe all that Christ has revealed and the apostolic church has taught! Matt 28:19
Thks
From this I perceive it’s not “faith alone”!
Also not “works alone”! Or natural works
Grace proceeds the free will and gives life to our deeds making them meritorious and salutary
Causes us to bear fruit Jn 15:4
As apart from Christ Jn 15:5 we can do nothing so united to Christ by faith and baptism by his grace we can do all things
Philippians 4:13
I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.
Amen?
CrowCross
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I should listen to a Pope? Seriously? Is a Pope the way, truth and life?
You shouldn't. In the same way I could ask...Why should I believe you?
Like a good baptism proponent...you left out the second part of the statement made by Christ and in doing so misrepresented the scripture.
Tell me why you did that? Tell me why you presented only have of what Jesus said? Which by the way is a VERY good reason why I shouldn't listen to you.
Why is baptism not mentioned with this water? You've been asked this several times and have never really given an answer. How do you know the water mentioned here isn't embryonic fluid considering it's mentioned with being born?
How do you know the water here isn't a parallelism where water = Holy Spirit??? How do you know water means baptism water?
Where does the bible say Noah and His family were baptized? How do you know that that verse isn't presenting the ark as a type of Christ?
There are several other verses that speak of salvation and there is no water in sight.
You guys say one verse cannot cancel another much less half a verse cancels the first half?
Why would Christ declare a truth only to delete it
Mark 16:16 The requirements for those who are being saved cannot be undone by the requirements for those not being saved! He who believes and is baptized is still required for salvation? Heaven and earth may pass away but my words shall not pass away!
It is Reasonable that if one rejects faith why bother mentioning the second requirement?
So don’t negate the word of God or the eternal words of Jesus by trying to delete one verse with another.
And does not ever say “faith alone”?
Thks
Jn 3:5 cos it actually does not say born of water, born again by the spirit
Nor the spirit alone
But born again f water AND THE spirit
(((BOTH AND BOTH AND)))
By water and the spirit
And they immediately went to the river (river that’s water right)
Did they preach the “standard fundamentalist tradition” accept Christ by faith alone???
No they baptized!
Baptismal regeneration! Amen!
And baptism is required cos it is the initiation into the new covenant
The church and kingdom
Jn 3:5 you cannot enter
2 pet 1:11 For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
By authorized ministers or apostles
The apostles minister grace and reconciliation
2 Corinthians 5:18
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;
2 Corinthians 8:19
And not that only, but who was also chosen of the churches to travel with us with this grace, which is administered by us to the glory of the same Lord, and declaration of your ready mind:
Thks
Noah’s ark is a type of baptism cos they passed thru water as we do
Church fathers
Sacred tradition commanded by Christ, go teach all men! Matt 28:19
Testimony of the early church in the successors of the apostles! Verified by acts 2:42
Acts 1:8 witnesses of Christ with the power of the Holy Spirit!
We must hear them! Matt 18:17
A) "It does not suffice to believe. He who believes and is not yet baptized, but is only a Catechumen, has not yet fully acquired salvation." St. Thomas Aquinas
B) "Now, even the Catechumen believes in the Cross of the Lord Jesus, but unless he be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Ghost, he cannot receive remission of his sins nor the gift of spiritual grace." St. Ambrose
C) "Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified. If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent
D)
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
St. AUGUSTINE
E) “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we [Christians] teach and say is true, and undertake to be able to live accordingly . . . are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated. For, in the name of God, the Father and Lord of the universe, and of our Savior Jesus Christ, and of the Holy Spirit, they then receive the washing with water. For Christ also said, ‘Except you be born again, you shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:3]” (First Apology 61 [A.D. 151]).
JUSTIN MARTYR
TERTULLIAN
“Happy is our sacrament of water, in that, by washing away the sins of our early blindness, we are set free and admitted into eternal life. . . . [But] a viper of the [Gnostic] Cainite heresy, lately conversant in this quarter, has carried away a great number with her most venomous doctrine, making it her first aim to destroy baptism—which is quite in accordance with nature, for vipers and.asps . . . themselves generally do live in arid and waterless places. But we, little fishes after the example of our [Great] Fish, Jesus Christ, are born in water, nor have we safety in any other way than by permanently abiding in water. So that most monstrous creature, who had no right to teach even sound doctrine, knew full well how to kill the little fishes—by taking them away from the water!” (Baptism 1 [A.D. 203]).
“Without baptism, salvation is attainable by none” (ibid., 12).
ORIGEN
“It is not possible to receive forgiveness of sins without baptism” (Exhortation to the Martyrs 30 [A.D. 235]).
CYRIL OF JERUSALEM
“If any man does not receive baptism, he does not have salvation.
St. AUGUSTINE
“There are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptism, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance; yet God does not forgive sins except to the baptized” (Sermons to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15 [A.D. 395]).
POPE LEO I
“And because of the transgression of the first man, the whole stock of the human race was tainted; no one can be set free from the state of the old Adam save through Christ’s sacrament of baptism, in which there are no distinctions between the reborn, as the apostle [Paul] says, ‘For as many of you as were baptized in Christ did put on Christ; there is neither Jew nor Greek . . . ‘ [Gal. 3:27–28]” (Letters 15:10[11] [A.D. 445]).
FULGENTIUS OF RUSPE
“From that time at which our Savior said, ‘If anyone is not reborn of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5], no one can, without the sacrament of baptism, except those who, in the Catholic Church, without baptism, pour out their blood for Christ, receive the kingdom of heaven and life eternal” (The Rule of Faith 43 [A.D. 524]).
Irenaeus
He [Jesus] came to save all through himself – all, I say, who through him are reborn in God; INFANTS, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an INFANT for INFANTS, sanctifying INFANTS; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).
Hippolytus
Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D.215]).
Origen
THE CHURCH RECEIVED FROM THE APOSTLES the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The APOSTLES, to whom were committed the secrets of divine sacraments, knew there is in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).
Cyprian
As to what pertains to the case of INFANTS: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).
Augustine
It is this one Spirit who makes it possible for an infant to be regenerated . . . when that INFANT is brought to baptism; and it is through this one Spirit that the infant so presented is reborn. For it is not written, "Unless a man be born again by the will of his parents" or "by the faith of those presenting him or ministering to him," but, "Unless a man be born again of water and the Holy Spirit." The water, therefore, manifesting exteriorly the sacrament of grace, and the Spirit effecting interiorly the benefit of grace, both regenerate in one Christ that man who was generated in Adam (Letters 98:2 [A.D. 408]).
Washing
Baptism washes away sin
Water and the spirit
Acts 2:38-39
Acts 22:16
Titus 3:5
Put on Christ gal. 3:27
Members of Christ and church
1 cor 16:13
Effects of faith & baptism!
Ez 36:25-27 washed in baptism, with a new heart and the Spirit
Matt 28:19 faith & baptism
Jn 3:5 born again in baptism
Mk 16:16 faith & baptist
Acts 2:38 repentance & baptism
Acts 8:36-38 faith & baptism
Acts 22:16 baptism washes away sin
Rom 6:3 died with Christ
Col 2:12 risen with Christ
1 cor 12:13 baptized into the church
Gal 3:27 by baptism put on Christ
2 Tim 1:10 eph 2:1 and 5 brought to life
2 cor 5:17 new creation
Eph 1:13 eph 4:30 sealed by the Holy Spirit
Eph 4:5 one faith, one baptism
Eph 5:26 faith and baptism
Titus 3:5 baptismal regeneration
1 pet 1:2 washed in Christ’s blood
1 pet 2:9 the kingdom of light
1 pet 3:20-21 baptism saves us!
Faith and baptism are required Mk 16:16 eph 4:5
Faith alone even all faith avails NOTHING! 1 cor 13:2
Not called to “faith alone” Phil 1:29
