Conditional

[donadams]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Mk 13:13
Matt 7:14
Matt 16:24
Matt 24:13
Jn 2:24-25
Jn 8:9
Jn 15:4
Jn 15:5
Jn 15:4
Jn 15:10
Rom 1:5
Rom 8:13-17
Rom 11:22
1 cor 7:24
1 cor 13:7
2 thes 1:4
Gal 5:2-4
Gal 5:25
Col 1:21-23
Col 2:5
2 Tim 2:3
2 Tim 2:12
1 pet 2:20
1 Jn 2:24-28
1 Jn 3:6
Heb 3:4-6
Heb 6:4-9
Heb 12:7
Heb 12:22-25
James 1:12

1 John 2:6
He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But since your save you don’t really have to.

(((The “Your Saved” gospel is another gospel and not the true gospel revealed by Christ and taught by His church))) Matt 28:19
Gal 1:6 1 Timothy 4:1 2 Tim 4:3

((Dogma the faith of Christians))

110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

 

[donadams]

Members of Christ’s new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, united to the mediator and having union with God and His saints!

Belong to God purchased at the price of the precious blood of Jesus

my grace is sufficient: 2 cor 12:9
Seek the kingdom: Matt 6:33
Abide in Christ / bear fruit Jn 15:4
Perpetual state of faith: Jn 3:16
Watch & Pray: Matt 26:41
Ask and receive: 7:8
Pray: Matt 6:6
Fasting: Matt 6:17
Alms: Matt 6:3
Practice of the virtues of Jesus Christ: Matt 11:29
Beatitudes: Matt 5:3-16
Christian suffering / Deny thyself, take up Thy cross: Matt 10:38 & 16:24 rom 8:18 2 thes 1:5
2 Tim 2:12 Phil 1:29
Frequenting the sacraments (promises) of grace: Heb 8:8
2 Timothy 1:1
Endure to the end: Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

All united in Christ and Soaked in His blood, grace, the merits Christ won for us by His life, death, and resurrection!

(((Or Jesus already did it all for us, and there is nothing we can do!)))

(((I am saved & there is nothing more for me to do!)))

 

[Papa Smurf]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

Hi Don, our ongoing choice to perseverance in the faith is one of our principal assurances that we are (really and truly) what/who we claim and believe ourselves to be, saved, IOW The fact is, only those who are ALREADY saved are capable of persevering, albeit imperfectly at times. Perseverance should, therefore, be the first thing that we look to as a test or examination of ourselves in obedience to the (ongoing) command that is found here: 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Those who are NOT saved are the ones that you are actually referring to in the OP (since it is they who have no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance), because you cannot persevere/endure/abide or remain as/in something that you are not, or do not ~already~ have or possess. IOW, to remain, "in Christ", you first need to be, "in Christ".

To save us, God had to make us, "His workmanship/masterpiece" .. e.g. Ephesians 2:10 cf Ezekiel 36:26-27, as wholly "new creatures" in Christ .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is why those of us who are (really and truly) saved/in Christ (on this side of the grave) have EVERY reason to persevere, endure, abide/remain, for the simple reason that that is who we now are, thanks to the mighty work that God did and continues to do in us (IOW, we choose to turn away from sin and persevere in the faith because that's what we WANT to do, NOT because it's something that is "required" of us).

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

Actually, as believers, we are no longer under the efficacious or irresistible grace that first drew us to the Lord Jesus to be saved, rather, we are now under His sanctifying grace (which I agree, is resistible, as I've already mentioned in this post).

In the end, according to the Scriptures, ALL of us who are drawn by the Father and given to the Son will come to saving faith and then persevere in that faith .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 44 because He will make sure that we do (according to His preserving grace .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here is a short excerpt from one of our confessions concerning the perseverance of the saints, just FYI.

WCF CHAPTER 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.​

​

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.​

​

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.​

 

[Papa Smurf]

Whoops, I also meant to say this. Scriptures like this one......................

Matthew 10​

22 You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved. ​

........................are not ~admonishments to~ but rather ~descriptions of~ believers/all who God saves and are "in Christ", both now and forevermore!

--Papa Smurf

.

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, our ongoing choice to perseverance in the faith is one of our principal assurances that we are (really and truly) what/who we claim and believe ourselves to be, saved, IOW The fact is, only those who are ALREADY saved are capable of persevering, albeit imperfectly at times. Perseverance should, therefore, be the first thing that we look to as a test or examination of ourselves in obedience to the (ongoing) command that is found here: 2 Corinthians 13:5.

Those who are NOT saved are the ones that you are actually referring to in the OP (since it is they who have no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance), because you cannot persevere/endure/abide or remain as/in something that you are not, or do not ~already~ have or possess. IOW, to remain, "in Christ", you first need to be, "in Christ".

To save us, God had to make us, "His workmanship/masterpiece" .. e.g. Ephesians 2:10 cf Ezekiel 36:26-27, as wholly "new creatures" in Christ .. e.g. 2 Corinthians 5:17. This is why those of us who are (really and truly) saved/in Christ (on this side of the grave) have EVERY reason to persevere, endure, abide/remain, for the simple reason that that is who we now are, thanks to the mighty work that God did and continues to do in us (IOW, we choose to turn away from sin and persevere in the faith because that's what we WANT to do, NOT because it's something that is "required" of us).


Actually, as believers, we are no longer under the efficacious or irresistible grace that first drew us to the Lord Jesus to be saved, rather, we are now under His sanctifying grace (which I agree, is resistible, as I've already mentioned in this post).

In the end, according to the Scriptures, ALL of us who are drawn by the Father and given to the Son will come to saving faith and then persevere in that faith .. e.g. John 6:37-40, 44 because He will make sure that we do (according to His preserving grace .. e.g. 1 Thessalonians 5:23-24).

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - here is a short excerpt from one of our confessions concerning the perseverance of the saints, just FYI.

WCF CHAPTER 17: Of the Perseverance of the Saints​

1. They, whom God hath accepted in his Beloved, effectually called, and sanctified by his Spirit, can neither totally nor finally fall away from the state of grace, but shall certainly persevere therein to the end, and be eternally saved.​

​

2. This perseverance of the saints depends not upon their own free will, but upon the immutability of the decree of election, flowing from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father; upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ, the abiding of the Spirit, and of the seed of God within them, and the nature of the covenant of grace: from all which ariseth also the certainty and infallibility thereof.​

​

3. Nevertheless, they may, through the temptations of Satan and of the world, the prevalency of corruption remaining in them, and the neglect of the means of their preservation, fall into grievous sins; and, for a time, continue therein: whereby they incur God’s displeasure, and grieve his Holy Spirit, come to be deprived of some measure of their graces and comforts, have their hearts hardened, and their consciences wounded; hurt and scandalize others, and bring temporal judgments upon themselves.​

What about judas
And
Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

We are definitely not saved having salvation glorified in heaven

Members of Christ’s new covenant of grace by faith and baptism, united to the mediator and having union with God and His saints!

Belong to God purchased at the price of the precious blood of Jesus!

In Christ and his grace united to God and the saints but not saved!

We must have perseverance in Christ unto death the judgement and some to eternal salvation

Redemption
Justification
Sanctification
Death
Judgement
Purification
Glorification
All are in the process of salvation

And perseverance is not automatic or guaranteed!

We cannot persevere without God’s help and grace!

Hence the scripture says:

Matthew 26:41
Watch and pray, that ye enter not into temptation: the spirit indeed is willing, but the flesh is weak.

Mark 13:33
Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
(What time? The hour of death?)

Matthew 7:7
Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shallbe opened unto you:

Jn 5:29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Matt 25:31-46

Thanks

 

[donadams]

T-U-L-I-P

(T- total depravity No!)

D 48. God has created a good world.
D 58. Our first parents, before the Fall, were endowed with sanctifying grace.
D 61. Through the sin our first parents lost sanctifying grace and provoked the anger and the indignation of God.

Heb 4:15 Christ was sinless

D 89. Christ was free from all sin, from original sin as well as from all personal sin.
D 103. Mary was conceived without stain of Original sin.

(U- unconditional election)

D 176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
D 125. The justification of an adult is not possible without Faith.
D 126. Besides faith, further acts of disposition must be present.
D 127. Sanctifying grace sanctifies the soul.
D 128. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a friend of God.
D 129. Sanctifying grace makes the just man a child of God and gives him a claim to the inheritance of Heaven.
D 130. The three Divine or Theological Virtues of Faith, Hope and Charity are infused withSanctifying grace.
D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.
D 118. Grace cannot be merited by natural works
D 157. Membership of the Church is necessary for all men for salvation.

(L- limited atonement)

Jn 3:16 the whole world
Jn 1:29 the whole world
2 cor 5:19 reconciled the world
1 Jn 2:2 propitiation of the whole world

D 96. Christ did not die for the predestined only.

(I- irresistible grace)

D 122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.

(P- perseverance of the saints)

Perseverance requires God’s grace / help requiring prayer
Matt 7:7 Matt 26:41

D 113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.
D 114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins, without the special privilege of the grace of God.

 

[donadams]

D for dogma
Divine faith of christ

113. Without the special help of God the justified cannot persevere to the end in justification.

114. The justified person is not able for his whole life long to avoid all sins, even venial sins,
without the special privilege of the grace of God.

119. God gives all the just sufficient grace (gratia proxime vel remote sufficiens) for the
observation of the Divine Commandments.

 

[donadams]

110. There is a supernatural influence of God in the faculties of the soul which coincides in time with man’s free act of will.

122. The Human Will remains free under the influence of efficacious grace, which is not
irresistible.


Matt 25:28
Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.

29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.

30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Had the grace of God and lost it!

D for dogma catholic and divine faith

D 133. Grace can be increased by good works.

Grace requires works to bear fruit

Matt 21:43
Jn 15:4

 

[Mr GLee]

Conditional perseverance:

((If you are saved there would no reason to participate, no reason to abide or endure, and no need for perseverance))

True Conditional perseverance:

God conditional Love
The gospel key both will and do

Philippians 2:12 Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. . . . . (why?) . . .. . For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. Do all things without .. . . . . . . murmurings and disputings:

The key word "work out" not "work to gain"dead works)

I believe our Holy father teaches yoked with him, we work it out together, empowering believers hear and do to his will to his good pleasure

Why as it seems do despite o the fullness of grace the whole cost of salvation ?? Is it because of Limbo Purgatory?,

Jesus the Son of man did the will of the Holy Father joyfully a delight. Murmuring Jonah wanting to die rather than preach the gospel

As a apologist Whose spirit is working in you defending you?

Whose spirit are you guarding with all your heart so soul and mind . The law as the spirits gods of the fathers Legion ?

 

[Papa Smurf]

What about judas

Hi Don, do you mean Judas, the "thief", and the "betrayer" of the Lord Jesus? What about him? The Lord Himself called him a "devil" and "the son of perdition". He may have been a "follower" of the Lord Jesus for a time (MANY were for a time, but MANY, incl Judas the "traitor", NEVER believed and walked away, because they were never saved .. e.g. John 6:64, 66, 70).

Heb 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Parts of Hebrews 6 and 10 seem to be in reference to 1st Century Jewish ALMOST converts (there are MANY who are just like them today, those who are, to one degree or another, "enlightened" by the truth they are taught in church, who taste, touch, experience; etc., some of the good things of God, many who have, in some fashion repented of their sin and come all the way to the threshold, clearly knowing who Jesus truly is but, in the end, never truly putting their faith and trust in Him/never surrendering their lives to Him as their Savior and Lord).

Many of these 1st Century Jews (talked about in Hebrews) were, no doubt, a regular part of the 1st Century Church for a time (as I mentioned above), and as such were afforded many of the benefits that the church had to offer, including being "enlightened" as to the truth (such that they knew all that they needed to know about the Lord Jesus, who He was, why they needed Him to be their Savior, etc.) but who, in the end, continued to reject Him, walking away from Christianity once and for all, and back to their former life as Jews .. cf 1 John 2:19.

This is why Hebrews 10 tells us that while they had "received the knowledge of the truth" about who Jesus actually was they, nevertheless, continued in their sin, the sin of rejecting Him as their Savior and Lord. This is why Hebrews 10 also tells us that for them (who refused to believe/continued to reject the Lord Jesus as their Savior), "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgment".

So, while these 1st Century Jews may have enjoyed being around the church, Christians and Christianity for a time, they never became true believers, never trusted God and surrendered their lives to Him, so they had no salvation to lose.

We are definitely not saved having salvation glorified in heaven

Like many things in the Bible (e.g. The Kingdom of God, Adoption into God's family), salvation is also a Biblical "already/not yet". As many like to say, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Or in more technical terminology, we are justified, sanctified and glorified by God

That said, salvation is not the goal, of course, eternal life is, and that's something that God gives to a new Christian at the very moment that he/she first comes to saving faith and believes, the moment that God accepts us in the Beloved as His own redeemed children (graciously saved by Him through faith) and declares us "just" .. cf John 5:24.

That said, I know that "we" will be glorified in the age to come, but I've never heard of our "salvation" being "glorified" before. What do you mean by that, exactly Thanks

I'll stop here and continue replying to the rest in my next post.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - it seems like we always talk in technical, rather than in personal terms about salvation and the relationship that we have with our loving, heavenly Abba, who made salvation a reality for us. We should change things up a bit and talk about that sometime too! Perhaps I will do so here in my next post to you

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, do you mean Judas, the "thief", and the "betrayer" of the Lord Jesus? What about him? The Lord Himself called him a "devil" and "the son of perdition". He may have been a "follower" of the Lord Jesus for a time (MANY were for a time, but MANY, incl Judas the "traitor", NEVER believed and walked away, because they were never saved .. e.g. John 6:64, 66, 70).


Parts of Hebrews 6 and 10 seem to be in reference to 1st Century Jewish ALMOST converts (there are MANY who are just like them today, those who are, to one degree or another, "enlightened" by the truth they are taught in church, who taste, touch, experience; etc., some of the good things of God, many who have, in some fashion repented of their sin and come all the way to the threshold, clearly knowing who Jesus truly is but, in the end, never truly putting their faith and trust in Him/never surrendering their lives to Him as their Savior and Lord).

Many of these 1st Century Jews (talked about in Hebrews) were, no doubt, a regular part of the 1st Century Church for a time (as I mentioned above), and as such were afforded many of the benefits that the church had to offer, including being "enlightened" as to the truth (such that they knew all that they needed to know about the Lord Jesus, who He was, why they needed Him to be their Savior, etc.) but who, in the end, continued to reject Him, walking away from Christianity once and for all, and back to their former life as Jews .. cf 1 John 2:19.

This is why Hebrews 10 tells us that while they had "received the knowledge of the truth" about who Jesus actually was they, nevertheless, continued in their sin, the sin of rejecting Him as their Savior and Lord. This is why Hebrews 10 also tells us that for them (who refused to believe/continued to reject the Lord Jesus as their Savior), "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgment".

So, while these 1st Century Jews may have enjoyed being around the church, Christians and Christianity for a time, they never became true believers, never trusted God and surrendered their lives to Him, so they had no salvation to lose.


Like many things in the Bible (e.g. The Kingdom of God, Adoption into God's family), salvation is also a Biblical "already/not yet". As many like to say, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Or in more technical terminology, we are justified, sanctified and glorified by God

That said, salvation is not the goal, of course, eternal life is, and that's something that God gives to a new Christian at the very moment that he/she first comes to saving faith and believes, the moment that God accepts us in the Beloved as His own redeemed children (graciously saved by Him through faith) and declares us "just" .. cf John 5:24.

That said, I know that "we" will be glorified in the age to come, but I've never heard of our "salvation" being "glorified" before. What do you mean by that, exactly Thanks

I'll stop here and continue replying to the rest in my next post.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - it seems like we always talk in technical, rather than in personal terms about salvation and the relationship that we have with our loving, heavenly Abba, who made salvation a reality for us. We should change things up a bit and talk about that sometime too! Perhaps I will do so here in my next post to you

No one is (((saved))) until death Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, do you mean Judas, the "thief", and the "betrayer" of the Lord Jesus? What about him? The Lord Himself called him a "devil" and "the son of perdition". He may have been a "follower" of the Lord Jesus for a time (MANY were for a time, but MANY, incl Judas the "traitor", NEVER believed and walked away, because they were never saved .. e.g. John 6:64, 66, 70).


Parts of Hebrews 6 and 10 seem to be in reference to 1st Century Jewish ALMOST converts (there are MANY who are just like them today, those who are, to one degree or another, "enlightened" by the truth they are taught in church, who taste, touch, experience; etc., some of the good things of God, many who have, in some fashion repented of their sin and come all the way to the threshold, clearly knowing who Jesus truly is but, in the end, never truly putting their faith and trust in Him/never surrendering their lives to Him as their Savior and Lord).

Many of these 1st Century Jews (talked about in Hebrews) were, no doubt, a regular part of the 1st Century Church for a time (as I mentioned above), and as such were afforded many of the benefits that the church had to offer, including being "enlightened" as to the truth (such that they knew all that they needed to know about the Lord Jesus, who He was, why they needed Him to be their Savior, etc.) but who, in the end, continued to reject Him, walking away from Christianity once and for all, and back to their former life as Jews .. cf 1 John 2:19.

This is why Hebrews 10 tells us that while they had "received the knowledge of the truth" about who Jesus actually was they, nevertheless, continued in their sin, the sin of rejecting Him as their Savior and Lord. This is why Hebrews 10 also tells us that for them (who refused to believe/continued to reject the Lord Jesus as their Savior), "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgment".

So, while these 1st Century Jews may have enjoyed being around the church, Christians and Christianity for a time, they never became true believers, never trusted God and surrendered their lives to Him, so they had no salvation to lose.


Like many things in the Bible (e.g. The Kingdom of God, Adoption into God's family), salvation is also a Biblical "already/not yet". As many like to say, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Or in more technical terminology, we are justified, sanctified and glorified by God

That said, salvation is not the goal, of course, eternal life is, and that's something that God gives to a new Christian at the very moment that he/she first comes to saving faith and believes, the moment that God accepts us in the Beloved as His own redeemed children (graciously saved by Him through faith) and declares us "just" .. cf John 5:24.

That said, I know that "we" will be glorified in the age to come, but I've never heard of our "salvation" being "glorified" before. What do you mean by that, exactly Thanks

I'll stop here and continue replying to the rest in my next post.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - it seems like we always talk in technical, rather than in personal terms about salvation and the relationship that we have with our loving, heavenly Abba, who made salvation a reality for us. We should change things up a bit and talk about that sometime too! Perhaps I will do so here in my next post to you

Taste “Christian lite” no it says fully partake of the Holy spirit and refers to final apostasy

We are not saved but in the process of salvation

Redemption (work of Christ)
Justification (faith & baptism)
Sanctification (prayer, virtues, suffering, etc.)
Death (Matt 15:4 Matt 24:13)
Purification (rev 21:27)
Glorification (Heavenly glory)
All in the process of salvation

Thks

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, do you mean Judas, the "thief", and the "betrayer" of the Lord Jesus? What about him? The Lord Himself called him a "devil" and "the son of perdition". He may have been a "follower" of the Lord Jesus for a time (MANY were for a time, but MANY, incl Judas the "traitor", NEVER believed and walked away, because they were never saved .. e.g. John 6:64, 66, 70).


Parts of Hebrews 6 and 10 seem to be in reference to 1st Century Jewish ALMOST converts (there are MANY who are just like them today, those who are, to one degree or another, "enlightened" by the truth they are taught in church, who taste, touch, experience; etc., some of the good things of God, many who have, in some fashion repented of their sin and come all the way to the threshold, clearly knowing who Jesus truly is but, in the end, never truly putting their faith and trust in Him/never surrendering their lives to Him as their Savior and Lord).

Many of these 1st Century Jews (talked about in Hebrews) were, no doubt, a regular part of the 1st Century Church for a time (as I mentioned above), and as such were afforded many of the benefits that the church had to offer, including being "enlightened" as to the truth (such that they knew all that they needed to know about the Lord Jesus, who He was, why they needed Him to be their Savior, etc.) but who, in the end, continued to reject Him, walking away from Christianity once and for all, and back to their former life as Jews .. cf 1 John 2:19.

This is why Hebrews 10 tells us that while they had "received the knowledge of the truth" about who Jesus actually was they, nevertheless, continued in their sin, the sin of rejecting Him as their Savior and Lord. This is why Hebrews 10 also tells us that for them (who refused to believe/continued to reject the Lord Jesus as their Savior), "there no longer remained a sacrifice for sins, only a terrifying expectation of judgment".

So, while these 1st Century Jews may have enjoyed being around the church, Christians and Christianity for a time, they never became true believers, never trusted God and surrendered their lives to Him, so they had no salvation to lose.


Like many things in the Bible (e.g. The Kingdom of God, Adoption into God's family), salvation is also a Biblical "already/not yet". As many like to say, we were saved, we are being saved, and we will be saved. Or in more technical terminology, we are justified, sanctified and glorified by God

That said, salvation is not the goal, of course, eternal life is, and that's something that God gives to a new Christian at the very moment that he/she first comes to saving faith and believes, the moment that God accepts us in the Beloved as His own redeemed children (graciously saved by Him through faith) and declares us "just" .. cf John 5:24.

That said, I know that "we" will be glorified in the age to come, but I've never heard of our "salvation" being "glorified" before. What do you mean by that, exactly Thanks

I'll stop here and continue replying to the rest in my next post.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf
p.s. - it seems like we always talk in technical, rather than in personal terms about salvation and the relationship that we have with our loving, heavenly Abba, who made salvation a reality for us. We should change things up a bit and talk about that sometime too! Perhaps I will do so here in my next post to you

Salvation in heaven is the goal
Eternal life is the life of God in us that’s called grace

Ok how about the great power of God’s grace, mighty in deed in conceiving Mary free from all sin! Lk 1:49
And the power of the Holy Spirit in the miraculous conception of Jesus in Mary’s holy womb, His temple for nine months and the fact that Jesus made her our mother, the mother of salvation!

Thks

 

[Papa Smurf]

No one is (((saved))) until death Mk 13:13 Matt 24:13

Hi Don, are you sure about that? I think that you may be missing a BIG part of the story (that the Lord has made known to us about salvation/eternal life).

For instance,

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

​

Ephesians 2​

8 By grace you ~have been~ saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ​

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ​

​

1 Corinthians 1​

18 The word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who ~are being~ saved it is the power of God. ​

​

Romans 5​

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we ~shall be~ saved by His life. ​

So, as you can see above, the Bible tells us there are various aspects to our salvation. Our salvation is, at the same time, past, present, ongoing, and future. Our salvation is another Biblical topic that we might describe as being "already/not yet" (like adoption and the Kingdom of God are).

I suppose could also look at this from the POV of our salvation from sin. We WERE saved from the "penalty" of our sins at the moment that we first came to saving faith and believed = Justification/Relational Sanctification

We ARE BEING saved from the "power" that sin holds over us for the balance of our lives on this side of the grave = Progressive Sanctification.

We WILL BE saved from 1. the wrath of God and 2. from the presence of sin altogether in the age to come = Glorification.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

 

[Papa Smurf]

Taste “Christian lite” no it says fully? partake of the Holy spirit and refers to final apostasy

Hello again Don. The overall sense of the passage (v4-6) is that the good things of God were tasted/touched/sampled/shared in/experienced by all who took part in/attended the 1st Century Church. The Greek does not say "fully partake" regarding those who were "partakers" of the Holy Spirit, NOR does it say that they were "indwelt" by Him!

We are not saved ............ but in the process of salvation

No ....and.... Yes. We are saved ~AND~ we are being saved ~AND~ we will be saved. See my last post above about this.

Redemption (work of Christ)

Agreed.

Justification (faith & baptism)

Justification is the forensic declaration of God that we are now "just" in His sight (our sins having been atoned for at the Cross, we are then forgiven and saved by God from the very moment that we come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus and believe).

Baptism is an outward sign and public declaration of a new and inward reality in us, that of our newfound faith and salvation (that God's mighty work wrought in us). Therefore, water baptism is (at least meant to be) an important work of obedience to God by those who have ~already~ come to saving faith, been saved and declared "just" by God.

On the other hand, the RCC teaches that justification happens ~in~ the waters of baptism to infants (in the case of the vast majority of baptisms that are performed by the Catholic Church), even though infants have not (cannot) come to saving faith and believe. Therefore, "justification" in the RCC view is (typically) based on water baptism alone, ~apart~ from saving faith.

Sanctification (prayer, virtues, suffering, etc.)

We are not only justified, but sanctified, at the moment that we come to saving faith. God CHANGES us from the inside out and makes us into new creatures/new creations by giving us a new nature, a "new self" that is no longer fallen .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:22-24. This term is often referred to as "relational sanctification" and this is done for us/by God alone.

We are also made more and more Christlike/less and less sinful throughout the remainder of our days here. This is often referred to as "progressive sanctification". Though God is/remains our Sanctifier, He also enables us to join in the furthering of this process, to come alongside of Him/work with Him in it (as much as we are able to at a particular point in time anyway).

Nevertheless, it is God ~alone~ who both justifies/saves, sanctifies and glorifies us, as we are not capable of doing any of that on our own.

Death and Purification (rev 21:27)

There is no need for further purification after we die, because God ALREADY took care of that for us when He forgave our sins (He is the only One who can, forgive AND purify us, that is).

1 John 1​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ~all~ unrighteousness. ​

Glorification (Heavenly glory)
All in the process of salvation

It's true that salvation is a process. Nevertheless, it is also a reality that is forever established for us/in us by God when we first come to saving faith and believe.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

​

 

[donadams]

Hi Don, are you sure about that? I think that you may be missing a BIG part of the story (that the Lord has made known to us about salvation/eternal life).

For instance,

John 5​

24 Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, ~has~ eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but ~has passed~ out of death into life. ​

​

Ephesians 2​

8 By grace you ~have been~ saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; ​

9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. ​

​

1 Corinthians 1​

18 The word of the Cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who ~are being~ saved it is the power of God. ​

​

Romans 5​

10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we ~shall be~ saved by His life. ​

So, as you can see above, the Bible tells us there are various aspects to our salvation. Our salvation is, at the same time, past, present, ongoing, and future. Our salvation is another Biblical topic that we might describe as being "already/not yet" (like adoption and the Kingdom of God are).

I suppose could also look at this from the POV of our salvation from sin. We WERE saved from the "penalty" of our sins at the moment that we first came to saving faith and believed = Justification/Relational Sanctification

We ARE BEING saved from the "power" that sin holds over us for the balance of our lives on this side of the grave = Progressive Sanctification.

We WILL BE saved from 1. the wrath of God and 2. from the presence of sin altogether in the age to come = Glorification.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

Process of salvation has many parts

Redemption (work of Christ)
Justification (faith and baptism)
Sanctification (abide and endure)
Purification
Glorification
Salvation in heaven

Do you suppose you are saved when you first believed?

Thks

 

[donadams]

Hello again Don. The overall sense of the passage (v4-6) is that the good things of God were tasted/touched/sampled/shared in/experienced by all who took part in/attended the 1st Century Church. The Greek does not say "fully partake" regarding those who were "partakers" of the Holy Spirit, NOR does it say that they were "indwelt" by Him!


No ....and.... Yes. We are saved ~AND~ we are being saved ~AND~ we will be saved. See my last post above about this.


Agreed.


Justification is the forensic declaration of God that we are now "just" in His sight (our sins having been atoned for at the Cross, we are then forgiven and saved by God from the very moment that we come to saving faith in the Lord Jesus and believe).

Baptism is an outward sign and public declaration of a new and inward reality in us, that of our newfound faith and salvation (that God's mighty work wrought in us). Therefore, water baptism is (at least meant to be) an important work of obedience to God by those who have ~already~ come to saving faith, been saved and declared "just" by God.

On the other hand, the RCC teaches that justification happens ~in~ the waters of baptism to infants (in the case of the vast majority of baptisms that are performed by the Catholic Church), even though infants have not (cannot) come to saving faith and believe. Therefore, "justification" in the RCC view is (typically) based on water baptism alone, ~apart~ from saving faith.


We are not only justified, but sanctified, at the moment that we come to saving faith. God CHANGES us from the inside out and makes us into new creatures/new creations by giving us a new nature, a "new self" that is no longer fallen .. e.g. Ezekiel 36:26-27; John 3:3; 2 Corinthians 5:17; Ephesians 4:22-24. This term is often referred to as "relational sanctification" and this is done for us/by God alone.

We are also made more and more Christlike/less and less sinful throughout the remainder of our days here. This is often referred to as "progressive sanctification". Though God is/remains our Sanctifier, He also enables us to join in the furthering of this process, to come alongside of Him/work with Him in it (as much as we are able to at a particular point in time anyway).

Nevertheless, it is God ~alone~ who both justifies/saves, sanctifies and glorifies us, as we are not capable of doing any of that on our own.


There is no need for further purification after we die, because God ALREADY took care of that for us when He forgave our sins (He is the only One who can, forgive AND purify us, that is).

1 John 1​

9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from ~all~ unrighteousness. ​

It's true that salvation is a process. Nevertheless, it is also a reality that is forever established for us/in us by God when we first come to saving faith and believe.

God bless you!!

--Papa Smurf

View attachment 817​

Quoting Spurgeon really?

 

[Papa Smurf]

Do you suppose you are saved when you first believed?

Do you suppose that you are not

No reason to "suppose" Don, just read what the Bible has to say and choose to take God at His word

Getting back to opening idea of "conditional" perseverance, since the RCC teaches that infants who cannot "believe" are, nevertheless, "saved" when they are water baptized, the idea that all of these baptized infants will also/eventually choose to come to true, saving faith (much less persevere to the end) is a notion that is obviously and blatantly absurd (one that no one, based upon life experience alone, would buy). So, I have no difficulty understanding the problem that you have with the Biblical teaching that all who are truly saved will also persevere.

 

[Papa Smurf]

Quoting Spurgeon really?

1. THAT's your reply to my post?
2. Is there a new rule that forbids me from doing so?

 

[donadams]

Do you suppose that you are not

No reason to "suppose" Don, just read what the Bible has to say and choose to take God at His word

Getting back to opening idea of "conditional" perseverance, since the RCC teaches that infants who cannot "believe" are, nevertheless, "saved" when they are water baptized, the idea that all of these baptized infants will also/eventually choose to come to true, saving faith (much less persevere to the end) is a notion that is obviously and blatantly absurd (one that no one, based upon life experience alone, would buy). So, I have no difficulty understanding the problem that you have with the Biblical teaching that all who are truly saved will also persevere.

Please explain

Romans 13:11
And that, knowing the time, that now it is high time to awake out of sleep: for now is our salvation nearer than when we believed.