Chosen and Predestined

[FutureAndAHope]

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation. I see rather that He “desires”, “wills”, all to come to salvation, but they have turned out unwilling.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,


Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'



It is my belief that God planned the cross, and it’s redemption before creation. He laid down the parameters that would determine salvation and fixed them. That there are certain criteria that accompany salvation. Namely, being willing to apply the crosses forgiveness to our lives, and live in a direction of persistent well-doing.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

So when we see terms like Predestined, and “chose us in Him”. It is saying that God had already determined, how a person would receive life, and we as believers are among the chosen or elect persons, due to our acceptance of the cross, and willingness to persist in going God’s way. This is not based upon our righteousness, but rather our openness to receive life. We were predestined, chosen.

 

[Reformedguy]

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation. I see rather that He “desires”, “wills”, all to come to salvation, but they have turned out unwilling.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,


Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'



It is my belief that God planned the cross, and it’s redemption before creation. He laid down the parameters that would determine salvation and fixed them. That there are certain criteria that accompany salvation. Namely, being willing to apply the crosses forgiveness to our lives, and live in a direction of persistent well-doing.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

So when we see terms like Predestined, and “chose us in Him”. It is saying that God had already determined, how a person would receive life, and we as believers are among the chosen or elect persons, due to our acceptance of the cross, and willingness to persist in going God’s way. This is not based upon our righteousness, but rather our openness to receive life. We were predestined, chosen.

Let's start with Ephesians 1:4. Where do you see desires or wills in the text?

 

[jeremiah1five]

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:
Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,
Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation. I see rather that He “desires”, “wills”, all to come to salvation, but they have turned out unwilling.

First, understand that Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Ephesus.
Second, having this as the basis of his words the context would be Jews that have accept Jesus as their Messiah and are filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise.
Third, the "choosing" applies to the Chosen people Israel.
Fourth, all this "choosing of the elect" - who are Israel - are those whose names are written by God in the "lambs' book of life slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world."
In other words, before God created heaven, earth, and man He chose a people in His Mind and contemplated them as saved individuals and then proceeded to create heaven, earth, and man. What God is doing is following a pre-ordained plan to create man and from this lump of humanity begin to choose out this pre-ordained people to Himself. This required a Redeemer for there is only One God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
This means that by virtue of his creation man was created sinful, that is, "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.] The only way man can be created is fallen short of the glory of God for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jn. 17:6.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

True. Israel may have been chosen from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world and because of their sinful condition have disobeyed God and mingled with the nations (Goyim) and learned their ways. Still, Israel as a people is still under covenant and since salvation is of the LORD, the LORD will do what He must to ensure that "all Israel shall be saved" - from sin, and from themselves.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

The context is Israel. God desires - and will make happen - that all men (again Israel) come to the knowledge of God of the truth.
And it is prophesied they will.

Eze_33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

Ezekiel also says:

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. Eze. 34:22–23.

and

30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.
31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze. 34:30–31.

Messiah was prophesied to Israel, Messiah came, Christ built/founded His Church in the first 40 years after Pentecost which was populated at first with Jews, destroyed her Temple, caused blindness to Israel who fell in the ditch, and through their fall God began to save Gentiles - without a covenant - in order to make Israel jealous, and at some future date remove Israel's blindness, end the Times of the Gentiles, return His full attention back to Israel and begin to call out His people from the places He scattered them to fulfill prophecy of One Nation and One Shepherd and to come and sit on the throne of David and rule the nations (Goyim) with a rod of iron and care for His chosen people Israel before turning everything over to His Father of whom the Plan of Man was contemplated. The summarized version of Redemptive history which is a history of the children of Israel.

It is my belief that God planned the cross, and it’s redemption before creation. He laid down the parameters that would determine salvation and fixed them. That there are certain criteria that accompany salvation. Namely, being willing to apply the crosses forgiveness to our lives, and live in a direction of persistent well-doing.

True.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour [member of another of the 12 tribes], and every man his brother [member of the same tribe], saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:34.

Salvation is of the LORD.

Rom 2:6-11 who "WILL RENDER TO EACH ONE ACCORDING TO HIS DEEDS": eternal life to those who by patient continuance in doing good seek for glory, honor, and immortality; but to those who are self-seeking and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness—indignation and wrath, tribulation and anguish, on every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek; but glory, honor, and peace to everyone who works what is good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek. For there is no partiality with God.

So when we see terms like Predestined, and “chose us in Him”. It is saying that God had already determined, how a person would receive life, and we as believers are among the chosen or elect persons, due to our acceptance of the cross, and willingness to persist in going God’s way. This is not based upon our righteousness, but rather our openness to receive life. We were predestined, chosen.

There is no "due to our acceptance of the cross."
Jesus said:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jn. 3:19–20.

Saul echoes this truth:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom. 3:11.

God is not waiting for man - His elect people - to "accept Jesus" or His cross.
God is actively calling out His people from out of the world of humanity and at the appointed time saving each and every one named in the book of life to the uttermost.
It is the Father's Plan.
The Son implemented the Plan.
The Holy Spirit is in the world today applying that Plan to God's elect from Adam to the last man to be born whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

Let's start with Ephesians 1:4. Where do you see desires or wills in the text?

I am not expecting to see desires or wills in the text. Rather I am explaining how I see it.

I believe there was a plan laid out before creation that determined what was acceptable to God for salvation. So in that sense, we were chosen. Those who would put their trust in God were predestined for life.

Eph 1:12-13 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

 

[FutureAndAHope]

First, understand that Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Ephesus.
Second, having this as the basis of his words the context would be Jews that have accept Jesus as their Messiah and are filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise.
Third, the "choosing" applies to the Chosen people Israel.
Fourth, all this "choosing of the elect" - who are Israel - are those whose names are written by God in the "lambs' book of life slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world."
In other words, before God created heaven, earth, and man He chose a people in His Mind and contemplated them as saved individuals and then proceeded to create heaven, earth, and man. What God is doing is following a pre-ordained plan to create man and from this lump of humanity begin to choose out this pre-ordained people to Himself. This required a Redeemer for there is only One God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.
This means that by virtue of his creation man was created sinful, that is, "missing the mark" [of the glory of God.] The only way man can be created is fallen short of the glory of God for there is only ONE God, there is NONE like Him, and He gives His glory to NO ONE.

6 I have manifested thy name unto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them me; and they have kept thy word. Jn. 17:6.

True. Israel may have been chosen from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world and because of their sinful condition have disobeyed God and mingled with the nations (Goyim) and learned their ways. Still, Israel as a people is still under covenant and since salvation is of the LORD, the LORD will do what He must to ensure that "all Israel shall be saved" - from sin, and from themselves.

The context is Israel. God desires - and will make happen - that all men (again Israel) come to the knowledge of God of the truth.
And it is prophesied they will.

Ezekiel also says:

22 Therefore will I save my flock, and they shall no more be a prey; and I will judge between cattle and cattle.
23 And I will set up one shepherd over them, and he shall feed them, even my servant David; he shall feed them, and he shall be their shepherd. Eze. 34:22–23.

and

30 Thus shall they know that I the LORD their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are my people, saith the Lord GOD.
31 And ye my flock, the flock of my pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord GOD.
Eze. 34:30–31.

Messiah was prophesied to Israel, Messiah came, Christ built/founded His Church in the first 40 years after Pentecost which was populated at first with Jews, destroyed her Temple, caused blindness to Israel who fell in the ditch, and through their fall God began to save Gentiles - without a covenant - in order to make Israel jealous, and at some future date remove Israel's blindness, end the Times of the Gentiles, return His full attention back to Israel and begin to call out His people from the places He scattered them to fulfill prophecy of One Nation and One Shepherd and to come and sit on the throne of David and rule the nations (Goyim) with a rod of iron and care for His chosen people Israel before turning everything over to His Father of whom the Plan of Man was contemplated. The summarized version of Redemptive history which is a history of the children of Israel.

True.

34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour [member of another of the 12 tribes], and every man his brother [member of the same tribe], saying,
Know the LORD:
For they shall all know me,
From the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:
For I will forgive their iniquity,
And I will remember their sin no more.
Jer. 31:34.

Salvation is of the LORD.

There is no "due to our acceptance of the cross."
Jesus said:

19 And this is the condemnation, that light [CHRIST] is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light [CHRIST], because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light [CHRIST], neither cometh to the light [CHRIST], lest his deeds should be reproved.
Jn. 3:19–20.

Saul echoes this truth:

11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. Rom. 3:11.

God is not waiting for man - His elect people - to "accept Jesus" or His cross.
God is actively calling out His people from out of the world of humanity and at the appointed time saving each and every one named in the book of life to the uttermost.
It is the Father's Plan.
The Son implemented the Plan.
The Holy Spirit is in the world today applying that Plan to God's elect from Adam to the last man to be born whose names are in the book of life of the lamb slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world.

On the book of life:

As you have mentioned Revelation has two verses that appear to have a Deterministic meaning:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. However, as pointed out at Stack Exchange the actual meaning of the word apo G575 the word "from" can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What this shows is that both Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed.

 

[Reformedguy]

I am not expecting to see desires or wills in the text. Rather I am explaining how I see it.

I believe there was a plan laid out before creation that determined what was acceptable to God for salvation. So in that sense, we were chosen. Those who would put their trust in God were predestined for life.

Eph 1:12-13 that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Good. Because it's not there and Paul don't need you to fill in the blanks.

 

[CCShorts]

Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation.

I also see it as inconsistent to say "God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation" for many reasons.

The first inconsistancy being that "certain ones" did not pre exist "creation".

The second inconsistancy being that God did not "preselect" anything but created all things for his predetermined purpose for creation.

The third inconsistancy would be assuming that what occurs in the timeline of creation plays no part in why "certain ones" end in their particular destination.

God did not stumble upon "ones" and just pick through them to find "certain" ones to cast into hell and others to take into heaven.

God predetermined creation to serve an ultimate purpose and created individules play a particular role in revealing that Ultimate purpose as time unfolds and the end result is according to what occurs in the timeline of creation.

...

 

[jeremiah1five]

On the book of life:

As you have mentioned Revelation has two verses that appear to have a Deterministic meaning:

Rev 13:8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Rev 17:8 The beast that you saw was, and is not, and will ascend out of the bottomless pit and go to perdition. And those who dwell on the earth will marvel, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

It appears at first glance that these scriptures support predestination. Saying the names of the damned we not in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. However, as pointed out at Stack Exchange the actual meaning of the word apo G575 the word "from" can have the connotation of referring to a span of time leading out from that place over time. As we see in the following two scriptures:

Luke 11:50 That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;

Heb 9:26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

What this shows is that both Rev 13:8 and Rev 17:8 need not mean the names were in the book at the beginning, but rather were entered in from the point of creation on, they were inscribed as time went by, or in the case of the damned were not entered as time passed.

At the time the lamb was slain from (meaning before, or in front of) the foundation (meaning creation) was when the names were written in the book of life.
This all means that before God created heaven, earth, and man a lamb was slain. And since it was before creation it was done in eternity. The effect of this lamb being slain allowed a Righteous God to create an unrighteous being: man.
What God performed in eternity in Himself (for only God is Eternal) has been done in eternity. It is applied to the dispensation we call TIME. And in TIME God sent forth His Son, born of a woman and under the Law to be the Savior and Redeemer of Israel as was planned in eternity before God created anything.
There is no free will in angel and there is no free will in man. God is Sovereign over all creation, and He does what He wants in earth as it is in heaven.

 

[atpollard]

Chosen and Predestined​

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture:

Ephesians 1:4​

"just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,"​

• just as He: "He" is God ... God the Father, to be specific. "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" - John 6:44
• He chose us: God chose me ... so my salvation was not an accident or a matter of luck, but was planned ... somehow part of God's Plan. "according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will" - Ephesians 1:11
• chose us in Him: I am both chosen to be in Him (Him being Jesus Christ) as already stated in John 6:44, to Jesus is where the Father draws those He draws ... and In Him is HOW I am to become that which God would have me be (holy and without blame before Him)
• before the foundation of the world: God has a plan and it unfolds. Got is not "winging it" and adjusting to changes in events on the fly. "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." - Genesis 1:1 ... Does this sound like a God that HAS A PLAN or one that waits to see what happens next? It is the VERY FIRST THING that God wanted people to know about Him.
• that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love: I will be. Not because I have faith in any merit in me, but because I have faith that God said it, so God will do it. "for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure." - Philippians 2:13

 

[Arial]

First, understand that Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Ephesus.

This is not true. The letter to Ephesus was widely circulated, did not always contain the title "to the Ephesians". Some of the oldest manuscripts do not have this but instead "to the saints who are also faithful in Christ Jesus." But even if it was written to just the church at Ephesus, the recipients were both Jewish and Greek. Who did Christ appoint Paul to preach the gospel to? The Gentiles.

So since that is not true, neither is this:

Second, having this as the basis of his words the context would be Jews that have accept Jesus as their Messiah and are filled with the Holy Spirit of Promise.

And neither would this be true:

Fourth, all this "choosing of the elect" - who are Israel - are those whose names are written by God in the "lambs' book of life slain from [before] the foundation (creation) of the world."

Unless one recognizes that Jesus is true and faithful Israel and all in Him through faith, Jew and Gentile alike, are then of true and faithful Israel---God's people.

Still, Israel as a people is still under covenant and since salvation is of the LORD, the LORD will do what He must to ensure that "all Israel shall be saved" - from sin, and from themselves.

Hebrews tells us that the old covenant has passed away since the new covenant has come. The new covenant is with Jew and Gentile as the Prophets said. Not all Israel, every Jew without exception will be saved. In the very same chapter Paul states that only a remnant will be saved.

 

[CrowCross]

I believe there was a plan laid out before creation that determined what was acceptable to God for salvation. So in that sense, we were chosen. Those who would put their trust in God were predestined for life.

What causes one to put their trust in God (Jesus) and one not to trust in the sacrificial atonement of Jesus?

 

[Josheb]

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation. I see rather that He “desires”, “wills”, all to come to salvation, but they have turned out unwilling.

Let's take a look at just this portion of the op.

First, we have you telling us you are going to explain to us how you see one verse and "like references." Next we see one single verse removed from its surrounding verses, asserted all by itself to be explained with no mention of the context the author (Paul) provided for that verse and its surrounding text. Then, we read another personal statement - declared to be person - what you see as "consistent with God's nature" apart from "like references." Which is it? Are we going to read your personal view of one verse based on other single verse you think are "references," or are we going to read your personal explanation of one verse based on your personal views of God's nature? Or both? Lastly, we read a false dichotomy created by the premise God doesn't select any ofr salvation before creation because he wants all to be saved..... as if God can have only one desire and not two or more.

Is this how you really want to start this discussion?

To what end? Supposed I and the others read your posts and we all read your explanation.... what then would we have achieved (besides knowing what you think of a proof-texted verse.

• Is the Bible open for your personal interpretation?
• If you make any mistakes, are you open to having them corrected by other posters?
• If you make errors and another corrects the error, will we then read an acknowledgment and appreciation for the correction?
• Are you aware one single verse should never be removed from its surrounding text and explained by itself?
• Are you aware other "like references" should never be considered without first reading the verse, its immediately surrounding verses, and its inherently provided context?
• Can you understand it is possible for God to have more than one desire?
• Do you think method is as important as content? In other words, is how we get to our point of view as important as the point view? Can/should Christians believe whatever they want regardless how they got there?

I'll address the specifics of this opening post once I understand the "how" of it. I also encourage other to emphasize how we obtain our views so that good practice in exegesis is observable.

 

[Josheb]

I wish to explain how I see the following scripture, and like references:

Eph 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love,

Firstly I would like to point out that I see it as inconsistent with God’s nature to say God preselected certain ones for salvation before creation.

But the verse actually explicitly, directly, plainly, unequivocally states the Christians in Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world! That is exactly what it states.

Consider how this reads to others: God explicitly states the Ephesian saints were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world but I, @FutureAndAHope think that statement means something other than what it states, and I expect other to listen to me when I tell them what God really meant.

When was the "foundation of the world"?

 

[Josheb]

First, understand that Saul is writing to Jewish Christians at Ephesus.

No, he is not. And don't you ever get tired of hijacking everyone's ops so you can (falsely) prove the epistles were written to Jewish Christians.


First, the letter was written by Paul, not Saul.

Ephesians 1:1-2
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus by the will of God,

To the saints who are at Ephesus and who are faithful in Christ Jesus: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.​

Acts 19:1, 1-20
It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples........... God was performing extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, so that handkerchiefs or aprons were even carried from his body to the sick, and the diseases left them and the evil spirits went out. But also some of the Jewish exorcists, who went from place to place, attempted to name over those who had the evil spirits the name of the Lord Jesus, saying, "I adjure you by Jesus whom Paul preaches." Seven sons of one Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. And the evil spirit answered and said to them, "I recognize Jesus, and I know about Paul, but who are you?" And the man, in whom was the evil spirit, leaped on them and subdued all of them and overpowered them, so that they fled out of that house naked and wounded. This became known to all, both Jews and Greeks, who lived in Ephesus; and fear fell upon them all and the name of the Lord Jesus was being magnified. Many also of those who had believed kept coming, confessing and disclosing their practices. And many of those who practiced magic brought their books together and began burning them in the sight of everyone; and they counted up the price of them and found it fifty thousand pieces of silver. So the word of the Lord was growing mightily and prevailing.​

Paul was writing to the saints in Ephesus. It states this right in the opening verses. There both Jewish converts and Greek converts to Christ in the church at Ephesus. The words, "Jew," "Jewish," and "Judaism," do not appear anywhere in the Ephesians epistle, and there is only one place where the word "Israel" occurs (Eph. 2:12) and that verse states the Greeks included in the covenants of promise to which the commonwealth of Israel had previously been a part.


@FutureAndAHope, he does this often. He'll take up your time arguing the letter was written to Jewish Christians and the substance of Ephesians 1:4 and your concerns will never get addressed correctly.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

But the verse actually explicitly, directly, plainly, unequivocally states the Christians in Ephesus were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world! That is exactly what it states.

Consider how this reads to others: God explicitly states the Ephesian saints were chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world but I, @FutureAndAHope think that statement means something other than what it states, and I expect other to listen to me when I tell them what God really meant.

When was the "foundation of the world"?

We know God planned the cross before the foundation of the world.

1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

So we know God's planning was "before the foundation of the world". I have no problem with that. But in order to preserve the scriptures which clearly show God desires "all" to be saved, I can not assign the meaning to the scripture that you do. As Christ was planned, the method by which He would bring life, so to our salvation was foreordained, how we were to be chosen, was thought up before the creation of the world.

The doctrine you ascribe to can not adequately explain God's desire for sinners to be saved.

Firstly God desired the sinners in Israel to be saved, He longed for it, so that was His desire. If you claim His will can not resisted, why then were not all of Israel saved? The answer is they "were not willing". God had a desire to save them but they did not follow God's ways.

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Then we know there are many verses that clearly show salvation is given to all, not just an elect group.

1Ti 2:4-6 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,

Then we clearly see in Ezekiel, that God's heart toward the wicked is for their salvation. God is not full of wrath and desiring the death of some, rather He takes no pleasure in it.

Eze 33:11 Say to them: 'As I live,' says the Lord GOD, 'I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die, O house of Israel?'

 

[CrowCross]

So we know God's planning was "before the foundation of the world". I have no problem with that. But in order to preserve the scriptures which clearly show God desires "all" to be saved, I can not assign the meaning to the scripture that you do. As Christ was planned, the method by which He would bring life, so to our salvation was foreordained, how we were to be chosen, was thought up before the creation of the world.

I made the word "all" big and red in your post to call attention to it.

Does the word "all" mean every human being that walked the earth?
Does "all" refer to all the Jews or just all of the gentiles?
Does "all" refer to just the elect, His sheep that hear His voice?

The reason I ask is because in Mark 1:5 we read:
And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Q. Does "all" mean every single person in Judea and Jerusalem were baptized?

 

[Josheb]

We know God planned the cross before the foundation of the world.

1Pe 1:20 He indeed was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you

Yep. I just got done saying so in a separate post in the omniscience thread.

So we know God's planning was "before the foundation of the world". I have no problem with that.

You do have a problem with it!!!!! It is incorrectly imagined God would not have made humanity if he'd known Genesis 6:5 beforehand. This is hugely problematic, and the enormity of the inconsistency does not seem to be recognized.

But in order to preserve the scriptures which clearly show God desires "all" to be saved, I can not assign the meaning to the scripture that you do.

Blessedly, readers of scripture are the arbiters of scripture. Scripture is the arbiter of the reader. The problem is the belief you get to assign meaning to God's word instead of accepting and trusting the meaning God gives His word. The verse in question explicitly states the Ephesian saints were chosen "before the foundation of the world." This is the exact phrase used in reference to Christ being the perfect sacrifice! In one sentence the post states, "he was fore-ordained before the foundation of the world," but another post denies that exact same condition to God choosing the saints even though the scriptures apply the exact same metric to both Christ and the saints.

I can not assign the meaning to the scripture that you do.

You could. But you do not. The actual words of scripture are denied AND they are denied despite the knowledge of the exact same language used by God and applied to Christ. The exact same phrase is used by two different apostles and applied to two different conditions (the inevitability of Christins sacrificial entrance into history and the choosing of saints) and the reader is held above what is written to deny what is explicitly stated.

That is, in fact a huge problem, a gross denial of scripture, a blatant inconsistency reading identical texts, and gross elevation of self over the authority of God and has written word. It is NOT a difference of individual interpretation because I am not "interpreting" anything. I'm reading what was written exactly as written and asking everyone to do the same and reading a refusal to do so.

That's a problem.

As Christ was planned, the method by which He would bring life, so to our salvation was foreordained, how we were to be chosen, was thought up before the creation of the world.

Yep. The saints were chosen before the foundation of the world, exactly as Christ's sacrifice was also foreknown.

The doctrine you ascribe to can not adequately explain God's desire for sinners to be saved.

Red herring.

I am not ascribing any doctrine. Every time an attempt to pass off that hogwash a straw man a straw man is argued. I am reading the text exactly as written and reading both mentions of "before the foundation of the world" exactly the same, exactly as written. YOU are the one ascribing doctrinal difference, applying the exact same words differently, assuming others do likewise, and arguing red herrings and straw men.

It is quite fleshly, and completely unnecessary. Just read the text as written, accept it as written, and trust it as written.

Then form doctrine.

Firstly God desired the sinners in Israel to be saved...

No. That is incorrect.


Firstly, God foreknew Christ as the perfect sacrifice and God foreknew the choosing of the saints. Both knowledges are explicitly stated to have existed prior to the foundation of the world. Israel did not exist at that time! The world did not exist at that time. The foreknowledge of Christs sacrifice and the choosing of the saints BOTH existed prior to the desire sinners in Israel to be saved.

Scripture (and logic) again by putting the cart of God desiring sinners in Israel be saved before the horse of God foreknowing Christ and His choosing the saints. Hugely problematic.

He longed for it, so that was His desire.

The fact God can and does desire many things simultaneously is still being neglected. The existence of simultaneously existing and seemingly competing desires has not been acknowledged or addressed. God can and does simultaneously desire all be saved AND desire to actually save some. The dissent is built on a false dichotomy and the false dichotomies are always exegetically incorrect and logically fallacious.

• Red herrings
• Straw men
• False dichotomies

Read scripture as written, and reason through ALL that is written logically and not fallaciously. This is important. It is necessary for healthy spirituality because the Holy Spirit never inspires or empowers fallacy. Those things occur only in the flesh, and I am going to note them every time they occur (I expect you to do likewise).

If you claim His will can not resisted, why then were not all of Israel saved?

Because that was His will. Again: God can and does will many things all at once. Pitting one desire against another is bad exegesis and bad logic.

The answer is they "were not willing". God had a desire to save them but they did not follow God's ways.

Their not being willing and God's will are not mutually exclusive conditions. This is another false dichotomy.

• Red herrings
• Straw men
• False dichotomies

This particular false dichotomy is particularly problematic because it necessarily subjugates the Creator to the creature, and NOT the good and sinless creature God originally created, but the sinfully dead and enslaved creature. No matter God's desire to save all men God's desire is subjugated to the sinner's sinful desires.

That is a serious problem.

It is a serious problem both scripturally and logically. Saying, "I don't have a problem with _____________________ simply indicates a lack of conscience, not any lack of a problem. The problems are very real, observable, and not deniable. Not haveing a problem with the many problems is, itself, another problem!

Luke 13:34 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, but you were not willing!

Then we know there are many verses that clearly show salvation is given to all, not just an elect group.

What we know is Christ was foreknown before the foundation of the world and the saints were chosen before the foundation of the world. EVERYTHING in scripture should be read in that context and not the context of a non-existent sinner's subjugating sinful will. Luke 13:34 most definitely should NOT be read in the context of red herrings, straw men, and false dichotomies. Neither should 1 Tim. 2:4-6, or Eze. 33:11.


The only thing proven in Post #15 is an ability to violate sound exegesis and logic and abuse whole scripture. The moment one desire was elevated above all others the entire argument failed. The moment 1 Peter 1:20 and Ephesians 1:4 were not consistently the entire argument failed. The moment it was assumed everyone is imposing doctrine on the text of Ephesians 1:4 the entire argument failed. The moment the text of Ephesians 1:4 was not read as written the entire op failed.


Grasp this because I've only just begun. All I have asked so far pertains solely to the first three sentences of the opening post. Because the responses have been so violently irrational, I'm inclined to go through the op line by line and comment and inquire as needed. Prepare yourself.

It is my practice to...

• affirm that which bears consistency with well-rendered scripture,
• inquire about that which is either unclear on your part, or not adequately understood on my part,
• refute that which is blatantly contrary to well-rendered scripture.

I have done that here. That fact is in evidence, beginning with my opening inquiry and comment. When I have time more will follow because there are many mistakes in this op. Let's all learn from one another how to read and exegetically understand Ephesians 1:4 when it is not proof-texted and made to say things it does not state or things the larger text and context preclude it from saying.

The saints were chosen before the foundation of the world, exactly as the sacrifice of Christ was foreknown and later revealed. Both happened before Israel ever existed.

 

[FutureAndAHope]

I made the word "all" big and red in your post to call attention to it.

Does the word "all" mean every human being that walked the earth?
Does "all" refer to all the Jews or just all of the gentiles?
Does "all" refer to just the elect, His sheep that hear His voice?

The reason I ask is because in Mark 1:5 we read:
And all the country of Judea and all Jerusalem were going out to him and were being baptized by him in the river Jordan, confessing their sins.
Q. Does "all" mean every single person in Judea and Jerusalem were baptized?

If we look at the other scriptures that talk of it it is obviously speaking of everyone.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You can't tell me without lying that that does not mean everyone.

 

[CrowCross]

If we look at the other scriptures that talk of it it is obviously speaking of everyone.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You can't tell me without lying that that does not mean everyone.

With out lying? Quite a statement.

It's quite obvious all men are not saved... You posted the following as if it were true. "because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men"....some men will go to Hell when they die.

Are you preaching universalism?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

With out lying? Quite a statement.

It's quite obvious all men are not saved... You posted the following as if it were true. "because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men"....some men will go to Hell when they die.

Are you preaching universalism?

Don't say I support Universalism, which I do not, the scripture has nothing to do with that. Do you think God's will can not be resisted? If God has allowed free will, He allows the resisting of His will.