Chosen and Predestined

[Arial]

If we look at the other scriptures that talk of it it is obviously speaking of everyone.

1Ti 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe.

1Jn 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

You can't tell me without lying that that does not mean everyone.

1 Tim 4:10 Are all men without exception saved? If the answer is no, then what must one do in order to justify that fact with this scripture?

1 John 2:2 Have all men without exception had their sins propitiated for? If the answer is no, what must one do in order to justify that fact with this scripture?

 

[FutureAndAHope]

1 Tim 4:10 Are all men without exception saved? If the answer is no, then what must one do in order to justify that fact with this scripture?

With a free-will doctrine, no one expects everyone to be saved. To suggest they "have to be", is just a Calvinistic thought that God enforces His will. God allows flexibility.

1 John 2:2 Have all men without exception had their sins propitiated for? If the answer is no, what must one do in order to justify that fact with this scripture?

You really frustrate me, read the scripture plainly, it means what it says. Jesus died for everyone. It does not mean everyone will be saved.

Your doctrine is causing men to unfairly hate God. I know of people who have sat at tables and cried tears of grief over how they perceived God when taught Calvinism. I honestly don't know how you can live with the doctrine you espouse when Jesus clearly died for all.

 

[CrowCross]

Don't say I support Universalism, which I do not, the scripture has nothing to do with that. Do you think God's will can not be resisted? If God has allowed free will, He allows the resisting of His will.

Why would someone freely choose Jesus yet another not choose Jesus?

 

[CrowCross]

With a free-will doctrine, no one expects everyone to be saved. To suggest they "have to be", is just a Calvinistic thought that God enforces His will. God allows flexibility.

Is your claim manis only sick.....not dead?

You really frustrate me, read the scripture plainly, it means what it says. Jesus died for everyone. It does not mean everyone will be saved.

I would say Jesus' sacrifice was sufficient for everyone.

Your doctrine is causing men to unfairly hate God. I know of people who have sat at tables and cried tears of grief over how they perceived God when taught Calvinism. I honestly don't know how you can live with the doctrine you espouse when Jesus clearly died for all.

Because someone cries at a table does that make them right?

 

[Arial]

With a free-will doctrine, no one expects everyone to be saved.

Where do they get the free will doctrine from? But you did not answer the question I asked which was what do you have to do with the actual scripture of 1 Tim 4:10 and 1 John 2:2 when you say in them "all" means "all without exception" justify the fact that in fact "all" does not mean "all" without exception? So if you would please, answer both of these questions.

To suggest they "have to be", is just a Calvinistic thought that God enforces His will. God allows flexibility.

It is a fact in the Bible that Calvin and the Reformers and Calvinists see and believe. Not a thought. It goes beyond the mere statement of the doctrine, but Jesus Christ and His Father, and their sovereign purpose and that purpose accomplished on the cross. And I ask you to pause here a moment and contemplate just what Jesus went through of the cross and why He was willing to suffer as though He Himself was a sinner.


He endured great pain and sorrow and betrayal and abandonment by friends, didn't He? We cannot even imagine the pain and torture of hanging on a cross, or the humility and pubic shame He faced as He was spit on and mocked, and people were joyful to see His suffering. If you have not ever read what it is like to die by crucifixion with nails driven through your flesh and your hands and feet holding you elevated, stretched to the limit and past, so that you cannot draw a decent breath, yet remain alive and in intense pain for hours and hours. Christ's time was was shortened to three hours by a merciful God, but still---. Usually they had to finally break the bones so they would finally die. If you have never read about this, you should, and perhaps you will not be so quick to say it was mostly for nothing because the Father thought more highly of the freedom of man's will than He did of His Son, and left the effectiveness of this suffering up to them.

And not only that, but free will says that even though that suffering paid for all men without exception, mostly He paid the price but did not procure the salvation. All because God considers man's free will of greater value than the suffering of His Son.

 

[Arial]

You really frustrate me, read the scripture plainly, it means what it says.

It is of no concern to me that hearing something frustrates you. I will not compromise truth for your feelings. The scripture does indeed mean what it says. You do not know what it says or what it means, because you have already determined what it is you prefer to believe, whether it is true or not.

Jesus died for everyone. It does not mean everyone will be saved.

See my post #25 and give His death a bit more thought.

Your doctrine is causing men to unfairly hate God. I know of people who have sat at tables and cried tears of grief over how they perceived God when taught Calvinism

People hate God no matter what they hear. It isn't the Reformed doctrines that make them hate Him. All you are really saying is that people usually will only worship God if He is a certain way and not if He is another way. Which of course is because they have built an idol of God to worship. God saves who He created to be saved. Who He created to be in His kingdom. You can shake your fists at Calvinists, try and lay a guilt trip on them to get them to back off and compromise truth as the Bible gives it, all you want. It won't change the truth and you are really shaking your fist at God and talking back to Him. Also you have changed who God is, told Him what His purpose is and how He brings it to pass, for the sake of being able to trust in yourself and a decision you made, rather than focusing on what it is you believe about Christ and gaging your salvation by that, as one should. It means you do not trust God to have saved you because He loved you, and without you doing a single thing to merit or deserve salvation; not a single thing to make God love you enough to save you. One would only be trusting in what they did first.