Cardinal Doctrines, and the next most important doctrines are...?

[makesends]

What hill is worth dying on, here? Are the cardinal doctrines absolute but only what is orthodox —pretty much common to all (or most) Christian churches for the last however many hundred years?

List what you take for cardinal doctrines, and maybe more to the point, what you think is absolute. And why do you think so?

Consider, for example, the Reformed doctrine of the Sovereignty of God. Not many disagree —in words, at least— that God is sovereign. So are we going to say that whatever anyone means by Sovereignty of God is ok? Or are we to pursue it to "what it really means", before considering it a hill to die on?


Does 'cardinal doctrine' mean that one cannot be saved if denying any of them?

Can one be saved that has not denied, but is not aware of one or more of the cardinal doctrines?


Here are what some consider as Cardinal Doctrines, my comments in italics:

1) The Trinity – There is one God in three persons. Of course, but what does that mean?​

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2) The Person of Jesus Christ – Jesus is fully man and fully God for all eternity. Was Jesus fully man in eternity past? Is he even now human in the same sense that we will be, in heaven? Is Jesus being fully human in Heaven mean the same thing that being fully human on earth means?​

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3) Salvation – It is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone.​

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4) The Scripture – It is entirely inerrant and sufficient for all Christian life.​

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5) The Second Coming of Christ – Jesus Christ is coming back to earth to rule and judge.​

(list from Doctrines of the Christian Faith | Biblical Christianity)

That's pretty much what I was raised on, but have come to see that it may have been assembled in the last 200 years or so. Is that an essential list —that is, is it possible to disbelieve one or more of these and still be saved? Or does 'essential' mean that they are hills to die on, but not necessarily that one cannot be saved that disagrees, or maybe is unaware of, one of these.

I am left a little out on the margins here, because while I agree all those are essential, I don't think that they all are necessary for someone to understand, to be saved. And there seems to be a lot missing from the list, and a couple of things not even a hill to die on. Even raised semi-Wesleyan/Arminian, I was taught, for example, sovereignty as absolute (at least in words).

My list goes more like this:

1) There is one God, creator of all else. (This fact includes all others concerning God. For example, this implies that there can be no other self-existent fact.)​

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2) God created for his own purposes, and submitted his creation to frustration​

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3) The man, Jesus Christ, is God​

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4) Salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone​

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5) God's purpose for creation is to make a people for himself, who will live with him and he with them.​

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But I don't claim that anyone cannot be saved until they agree with all those.

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And, no doubt, tomorrow I will think of others. My problem is, those are all interrelated and some perhaps even redundant. And what I mean by those 5 will necessarily include further corollary facts, 'upon which hills I am willing to die'.

Lists? Thoughts?

 

[Fred]

The Virgin Birth
The Resurrection of the Lord Jesus

 

[Binyawmene]

List what you take for cardinal doctrines, and maybe more to the point, what you think is absolute. And why do you think so?

Does 'cardinal doctrine' mean that one cannot be saved if denying any of them?

From my standpoint, to spot out the essential doctrines from the Bible, then it should be accompanied by a warning or penalty of some sort. Take the example of the Deity of Christ from John 8:24, 3:16-18:

I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he, you will indeed die in your sins.

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.​

 

[fastfredy0]

.... intense and complicated question. I think I will simplify it. I will define Essential Doctrine as "one cannot be saved if they doesn't believe it to be true". Example: Although it might be a hill to literally die on to deny Christ, butwe know Peter did it and is in heaven (saved) so denying Christ is not an Essential Doctrine (a doctrine to be believed to be saved).

So to be saved all one has to do is to trust in (have (1) faith upon) (2)Christ for one's salvation.

So what constitutes saving FAITH? Faith requires facts to be believed and trusting them to be true. I believe the are 2 Essential facts to
be believed to be saved.
1) Trust that Jesus can saved you
2) Jesus is GOD. This one is controversial and I will say I am 80% confident it is true. My evidence it the following:
John 20:31, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3 and 1 John 5:13 support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine
This fits the idea that even a child can come to Christ.
It also complies with Romans 10:9-10 ... the belief and acceptance that Jesus is Savior and Lord. By “Savior” one means Christ will save his people from hell and usher them into the eternal Kingdom. By “Lord” one means Christ rules over us; the Lord Messiah, the Christ, where ‘Christ’ means the Savior-King sent by God. Making Christ Lord is the result of trust which is a component of Faith.
One caveat and I am only 30% confident in this one ... Galatians is about teaching another gospel that does not save. Galatians 5:2-6 speaks about another gospel for which one is accursed ... to cut to my point I believe it says that if one believes one is saved by his own works then that person is accused (not saved) ... to dig deeper with practical example ... the definition of Work is: a physical or mental process one does to achieve a purpose. So developing this further .... If one believes he is the cause of his salvation via his self-determined faith, that is a work that would disqualify a person. Anyways, as I said I am only 30% confident on this point. Hope I am wrong.

Summary
Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”.

 

[makesends]

So to be saved all one has to do is to trust in (have (1) faith upon) (2)Christ for one's salvation.

What must one DO to be saved? Nicodemus didn't ask the question, but it seems plain to me that he thought it (John 3). It is not what one must do, but what he must BE.

 

[makesends]

.... intense and complicated question. I think I will simplify it. I will define Essential Doctrine as "one cannot be saved if they doesn't believe it to be true". Example: Although it might be a hill to literally die on to deny Christ, butwe know Peter did it and is in heaven (saved) so denying Christ is not an Essential Doctrine (a doctrine to be believed to be saved).

So to be saved all one has to do is to trust in (have (1) faith upon) (2)Christ for one's salvation.

I'm thinking you mis-spoke. DO?

So what constitutes saving FAITH? Faith requires facts to be believed and trusting them to be true. I believe the are 2 Essential facts to
be believed to be saved.
1) Trust that Jesus can saved you
2) Jesus is GOD. This one is controversial and I will say I am 80% confident it is true. My evidence it the following:
John 20:31, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3 and 1 John 5:13 support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine
This fits the idea that even a child can come to Christ.
It also complies with Romans 10:9-10 ... the belief and acceptance that Jesus is Savior and Lord. By “Savior” one means Christ will save his people from hell and usher them into the eternal Kingdom. By “Lord” one means Christ rules over us; the Lord Messiah, the Christ, where ‘Christ’ means the Savior-King sent by God. Making Christ Lord is the result of trust which is a component of Faith.
One caveat and I am only 30% confident in this one ... Galatians is about teaching another gospel that does not save. Galatians 5:2-6 speaks about another gospel for which one is accursed ... to cut to my point I believe it says that if one believes one is saved by his own works then that person is accused (not saved) ... to dig deeper with practical example ... the definition of Work is: a physical or mental process one does to achieve a purpose. So developing this further .... If one believes he is the cause of his salvation via his self-determined faith, that is a work that would disqualify a person. Anyways, as I said I am only 30% confident on this point. Hope I am wrong.

Summary
Faith consists more of certainty that “Christ is Lord and Savior” rather than “discernment of facts”.

The Biblical notion translated 'work' from Greek and from Hebrew is generally: any deed, act, decision, effort, or fact generated by- or attributed to- any person or principle. There are 'works of the flesh', for example, which are not clearly signifying one or the other —a work that the flesh does, or a work that the person does — but probably signifying both.

When one claims his faith is generated by himself, yet it is not a work, they do not understand the Biblical reference, "work".

Completely agreed with your summary.

 

[fastfredy0]

What must one DO to be saved? Nicodemus didn't ask the question, but it seems plain to me that he thought it (John 3). It is not what one must do, but what he must BE.

Agreed ... I cause myself to do nothing in order to be saved, but I do things as an effect of my salvation. The things I do as an effect I have addressed.
It is getting into semantics. I DO THINGS ... I think you are getting into the WHY I do things.

 

[Mr GLee]

Satan destroying words adding new meaning in violation of Deuteronomy 4:2.

The Virgin birth in respect the chase virgin bride the Church

Satan would make it the queen mother of heaven named after our sister in Lord Mary

Paul In pains of labor sufferings until Christ the spiritual seed was formed in Timothy .Paul as a surrogate mother espoused Timothy the chaste virgin bride.

Satan the king of false pride. trying to make it about the lust the flesh, lust eye . . . . selfish false pride . . his place of expertise.

2 Corinthians 11:2 For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ.

Mary did have sex before marriage a gift of the Holy Spirit. All chidden, a gift of the Holy Spirit .

The power of the Father applied at the ressurection not fleshly birth.

Mathew 1:18 CEB This is how the birth of Jesus Christ took place. When Mary his mother was engaged to Joseph, before they were married, she became pregnant by the Holy Spirit.

Sexual sin another kind of doctrine.

 

[CrowCross]

Agreed ... I cause myself to do nothing in order to be saved, but I do things as an effect of my salvation. The things I do as an effect I have addressed.
It is getting into semantics. I DO THINGS ... I think you are getting into the WHY I do things.

I agree. You don't do things to become saved...but you do things because you are saved.

That is you don't do things for your glory but do things for Gods glory.

 

[CrowCross]

Can one be saved that has not denied, but is not aware of one or more of the cardinal doctrines?

I would say yes.
For example a person can admit they are a sinner in need of salvation....and call on the name of Jesus not knowing Jesus is God come in the flesh.
At a later date when this doctrine is presented....the Word was God and with God, and became flesh along with the many other verses that indicate Jesus is the creator God the concept should be a no-brainer. If one later hears the biblical doctrine of the divinity of Christ and refuses to believe it...then they are extremely deceived or were never saved to begin with.

If someone is preaching a gospel where Jesus was simply a mere man and not God....there is no salvation in that message as a mere finite man could not pay the ransom for the eternal consequences the bible speaks of.

 

[fastfredy0]

For example a person can admit they are a sinner in need of salvation....and call on the name of Jesus not knowing Jesus is God come in the flesh.

I believe John 20:31, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3 and 1 John 5:13 support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine.

... If one believes Joe or any other man died his sins then that isn't going to do much good. Faith requires knowledge of facts. There is debate as to which facts are critical. I don't think many, but knowing that God died for you and not the idea that a mere man did so is critical IMO and I pointed out some scriptures to back me up.

 

[Mr GLee]

I would say yes.
For example a person can admit they are a sinner in need of salvation....and call on the name of Jesus not knowing Jesus is God come in the flesh.
At a later date when this doctrine is presented....the Word was God and with God, and became flesh along with the many other verses that indicate Jesus is the creator God the concept should be a no-brainer. If one later hears the biblical doctrine of the divinity of Christ and refuses to believe it...then they are extremely deceived or were never saved to begin with.

If someone is preaching a gospel where Jesus was simply a mere man and not God....there is no salvation in that message as a mere finite man could not pay the ransom for the eternal consequences the bible speaks of.

It was the Father that struck the Son man Jesus" No power attributed to the Son of man

The father bruised the Son of man Jesus's heal. . . crushing the head of the serpent.

The father striking and strengthening dying mankind Jesus three times.

Then they moved on to part two of the three days and night demonstration of the father not seen working in the Son of man. . . . . the hill of Skull. The bloody demonstration the cross .

Part three the last the demonstration. The demonstration of faith the (unseen eternal) the Tomb .

Then the Father removed the grave clothes of Jesus and rolled back the Stone ending the three day and not promised demonstration of the lamb slain of God slain from the foundation .The six day the father did work "let there be"

Eternal Spirit is not a man as us.

Satan's goal to the deceive all the nations that God is a Jewish man as King of kings.

When the vail was rent that signified circummsion of the first born there was no fleshly God sitting in the Holy of Holies. The abomination of desolation. Kings in Israel .

 

[CrowCross]

Eternal Spirit is not a man as us.

An eternal spirit in the forward direction only...is.

 

[Mr GLee]

An eternal spirit in the forward direction only...is.

Thanks

Not sure what you mean? (forward direction only)

 

[CrowCross]

Thanks

Not sure what you mean? (forward direction only)

From birth (conception) on.

Considering we as humans didn't pre-exist...we have no eternal past like Jesus did.

 

[Red Baker]

What hill is worth dying on, here?

Not so sure if there can be a list per se, at least not for me.
That being said, I would think the most important doctrine worth defending and dying for, would be to keep the doctrine of the gospel of Christ as pure as possible.

Galatians 1:8​

“But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.”

Paul doesn't use such strong words as these in reference to most other doctrines where men debate over, as here recorded for our learning, where he pronounces a curse upon all who preach another gospel other than the doctrine of grace, over a system that said.... this do and live, sin and die!

Galatians 2:16​

“Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.”

Romans 5:19​

“For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.”

Maybe more later...

 

[makesends]

Agreed ... I cause myself to do nothing in order to be saved, but I do things as an effect of my salvation. The things I do as an effect I have addressed.
It is getting into semantics. I DO THINGS ... I think you are getting into the WHY I do things.

My bad. I read you to say this and that, being essential to salvation, meant DO in order to be saved. I should have read closer, already knowing your soteriology is sound.

 

[fastfredy0]

already knowing your soteriology is sound.

You say that because it's the same as yours ... LOL

 

[makesends]

I believe John 20:31, 1 John 2:22, 1 John 4:3 and 1 John 5:13 support the idea that one must believe Christ is divine.

... If one believes Joe or any other man died his sins then that isn't going to do much good. Faith requires knowledge of facts. There is debate as to which facts are critical. I don't think many, but knowing that God died for you and not the idea that a mere man did so is critical IMO and I pointed out some scriptures to back me up.

...knowledge of facts. My thinking tends toward the faith itself, being not a God-given ability, but rather, a God-generated fact, tends to make the knowledge in HIS bailiwick. Not saying that we just have some ignorant feel-good or something, but that our ability to understand the 'facts' that we think we understand is not the point here.

As I have said in the past concerning the mentally incapacitated, who may not even be able to form a concept in their minds, are still able to need God, seeing the huge separation between them and God, and by his grace being regenerated gladly embrace his gift of covering that distance, and to love him. The 'facts' are all there, but they don't know them by the names we give them, I think. Anyway, just some thoughts. I agree that for those of us more rooted in the temporal intelligence, we need to have words for these facts.

 

[Mr GLee]

From birth (conception) on.

Considering we as humans didn't pre-exist...we have no eternal past like Jesus did.

I would offer Jesus the Son of man our brother in the Lord His name was written in the lamb book slain from the foundation .The 6 days Christ the father did work .it was demonstrated outwardly two thousand of years later .Two thousand years ago

Jesus the Son of man is not ashamed to call us brothers and sisters in the lord that cry out Abba Holy Father .The family that calls no man Holy Father on earth .