Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Eternally-Grateful]

A receptacle receives, not by the receptacle's choice, but by the use of the one handling that receptacle.

"Receptacle" —hmmm ...one might even say, "Vessel". Like in Romans 9.

A receptacle can not do anything.

again as in my last post to Ariel. the example does not fit.

A dead person can do many things.. So saying they are a receptacle does not fit.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

God gives Believers the Right to become Adopted Children of God; Regeneration doesn't make anyone a Child of God; it just makes Us Spiritually Alive...

You are made spiritually alive because that which made you dead was solved.

You were justified.

justification and regeneration happen simultaneously. I think we both agree with this

the part I think we disagree is when this happens

 

[ReverendRV]

justification and regeneration happen simultaneously. I think we both agree with this

They happen simultaneously in the Temporal Order but not in the Logical Order. We cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven through Faith unless we're Born Again; right?

 

[Carbon]

to me it is the only logical view

That seems to be the natural human view.

If I offer you something, and you have no ability to recieve it. I have in effect offered you something you can never have.

This may not fit with the op, but. Where is the gospel an offer to everyone for salvation?

on the other hand, If I offer something to you. But in your natural state you would never recieve it. But then i do something to you which you had no decision to say yes do that to me, or no I do not want that, so that you would receive it and not reject it

I have in essence forced you to receive my gift by coercion.

Nothing forced. That's grace, brother. It is by grace you are saved, . . . .

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

They happen simultaneously in the Temporal Order but not in the Logical Order. We cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven through Faith unless we're Born Again; right?

Actually the opposite in my view

we can not be born again if we are not justified. We are justified by faith

so no faith. no new birth and no justification will appear

who are we trusting?

God and his promise based on his work?

Self and our own sinfulness and our own fleshly desires? I do not need saved. so I do not need faith in any God

God but only in a sense that I trust him only so far. I must work to save myself (or keep myself saved)

this is prety much the worlds reaction to the cross..

 

[Carbon]

I would consider God making me alive while still dead in sin a compromise on Gods integrity. A refusal to deliver his own perfect justice. and the fact he only chose a select few. and not even allow the rest a possibility to be made alive. an attach on his character.

So, you would rather have justice? Think about what you're saying.

A dead person can not do anything good or bad. they can not move, they can not see, they can not walk. they can not think, they are lifeless.. They cant say yes, they can't say no. They can't sin they can't do good works. they are dead

so trying to use this to get me to see it your way will not work.. Because they two deaths do not correlate.

A spiritually dead person can chose to do right or wrong. He can chose to sin or not sin. He can chose to walk here and there. He can see and he can walk.

if he can do this, All God has to do is show himself to them, and prove he is worthy of their faith.

He came to Israel to do this. Sadly. because they did not want a savior. they wanted a king. they chose to reject him

If he gives it to you through no choice of your own, he is in effect forcing them to believe.

The gospel according to you.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

That seems to be the natural human view.

yet many a person in the bible and outside the word have had this same view.

This may not fit with the op, but. Where is the gospel an offer to everyone for salvation?

What did Jesus tell the disicples. The gospel will spread to all nations. starting in Jerusalem. then Judea, then the ends of the earth.

when God sent the flood. did he do it because he hated man, or did he do it because he knew nothing he would do would convince them to repent?

Same with the people in the promised land when God sent the children of Israel in. demanding they all be killed (the sin of the Amorite is not yet complete)

His will to Nineveh. Where Nineveh repented at the preach of Jonah, and God relented his judgment on them.

if anyone on earth would respond to the gospel. God would get it to them this has been proven over many years with many missionaries I have spoken to.

Nothing forced. That's grace, brother. It is by grace you are saved, . . . .

If Grace can not be resisted. it is forced.

in any other topic this would be insisted. and no one would deny it

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

So, you would rather have justice? Think about what you're saying.

No

God is a God of justice, is what I am saying

But he is also a God of love..

what good is justice if there is no love

The gospel according to you.

whatever, I consider this a non responsive post. and will treat it as such

if you want to counter my views and my point. please do so.

but responses like this do not help your case. or your honor

 

[Arial]

to me it is the only logical view

It is only logical if one's religion is man centered. That is why I asked you long ago if what you are positing is consistent with who God reveals himself to be. But the covenant of redemption and the plan of redemption is at no point man centered or man exalting. It is always God centered. Man is the means in the plan of redemption, but he is not the end, or the center of it. To go farther into that here would sidetrack a bit and make my post too long. So I direct you to a thread dealing directly with that.

In Doctrines of God
God is the Center of the Universe

 

[ReverendRV]

Actually the opposite in my view

But isn't it the View of the Bible that you are an Ambassador of Christ; you are in the Kingdom now?

Since you are in the Kingdom of God now, you entered through Faith to even be able to become an Ambassador. Isn't it true that Jesus said you can't Enter the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again? And before he said this, he said you can't see the Kingdom of God unless you are Born Again? Doesn't this mean you cannot see the Kingdom of God to enter it unless you are Born Again? Isn't the Conclusion of Christ's Syllogism, that Faith's perception can't precede the New Birth? Not a Fallen person's perception, but the Gift of Faith's Perception?

We enter the Kingdom of God through Faith, so Logically we are Born Again before we enter through Faith...

 

[Carbon]

yet many a person in the bible and outside the word have had this same view.

Yes, of course.

 

[Carbon]

What did Jesus tell the disicples. The gospel will spread to all nations. starting in Jerusalem. then Judea, then the ends of the earth.

Indeed. And how does that make it an offer?

 

[Carbon]

when God sent the flood. did he do it because he hated man, or did he do it because he knew nothing he would do would convince them to repent?

He did it because of man's wickedness. Do you disagree?

 

[Carbon]

If Grace can not be resisted. it is forced.

When you were saved, were you forced? I'm sure you will say no, of course not. Yet, you were saved like everyone else who has been saved or will be saved. You were regenerated; therefore, you willingly believed. No one forced you; that just cannot be done. I pray you may understand grace more then you do now.

in any other topic this would be insisted. and no one would deny it

Please, bring up a thread with this topic.

 

[Eleanor]

No
God is a God of justice, is what I am saying
But he is also a God of love..
what good is justice if there is no love
whatever, I consider this a non responsive post. and will treat it as such
if you want to counter my views and my point. please do so.
but responses like this do not help your case. or your honor

The same as a drought if there is no rain. . .

 

[Eleanor]

That seems to be the natural human view.

This may not fit with the op, but. Where is the gospel an offer to everyone for salvation?

The gospel is to "whosoever will."

And apart from God changing one's disposition from unwilling to willing, no one "will."

Nothing forced. That's grace, brother. It is by grace you are saved, . . . .

 

[Carbon]

The gospel is to "whosoever will."

And apart from God changing one's disposition from unwilling to willing, no one "will."

Amen

 

[Arial]

If I offer you something, and you have no ability to recieve it. I have in effect offered you something you can never have.

on the other hand, If I offer something to you. But in your natural state you would never recieve it. But then i do something to you which you had no decision to say yes do that to me, or no I do not want that, so that you would receive it and not reject it

I have in essence forced you to receive my gift by coercion.

Comparisons like this---man to God in order to define what God is doing in respect to salvation----do not work as a valid interpretation of what God is doing or does. We are not engaging in a conversation about what man does in relation to other men. We are engaging in a conversation about what God-----the unique and sovereign---does in establishing a relationship with mankind. You are comparing apples and oranges as though they were the same thing.

God does not offer something to anyone. Who has the upper, controlling hand in that situation? God or man? This is where those who believe in the "free choice" of salvation, go awry in a great deal of their Bible interpretation. It throw everything off and makes it impossible to see it correctly. God gives the gift of faith to those he has predestined to belong to him. Jesus himself says this. "Those the Father gives me---". These he draws, these believe when they hear, these hear his voice and follow him. (I have given those scriptures.)

The called are given the gift of faith.

Will address rest tomorrow if I can get internet connection on my lap top. Have it on all my other devices (on tablet now). But I don't like doing it this way. I have not been able to post or sign out since this afternoon. Mainly came back to post this part and sign out. See you tomorrow.

 

[Eleanor]

to me it is the only logical view
If I offer you something, and you have no ability to recieve it. I have in effect offered you something you can never have.
on the other hand, If I offer something to you. But in your natural state you would never recieve it. But then i do something to you which you had no decision to say yes do that to me, or no I do not want that, so that you would receive it and not reject it
I have in essence forced you to receive my gift by coercion.

If I am willing, there is no coercion, I haven't been forced to do anything.

And God gives me to be willing.

 

[Arial]

I would consider God making me alive while still dead in sin a compromise on Gods integrity. A refusal to deliver his own perfect justice. and the fact he only chose a select few. and not even allow the rest a possibility to be made alive. an attach on his character.

Well, you say that would be a compromise on God's integrity, and yet, at the same time, you rejoice that he did, taking full benefit of his mercy. What does Scripture say about being grateful? Col 3:15 And let the peace of Christ rule in your hearts, to which indeed you were called in one body, And be thankful. (There is that word "called" again when referring to believers.) See also Eph 1: 3-14.

Scripture tells us plainly that God did make us alive while we were dead in sin. Eph 2:4-5 But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ---by grace you have been saved---.

Is it an attack on his character to agree with Scripture that he chose, Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah etc.? Is it an attack on his character to say he chose Israel out of all the nations on earth to covenant with? The attack on his character is to say he does not have the right to do as he pleased with his creation. Paul puts it this way: Romans 9:18-21 So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whom very he wills. You will say to me then, "Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?: But who are you O man, to answer back to God? Will what is modeled say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?" Has the potter no right over the clay---.

The rest, can thank their father Adam for their rejection of Christ instead of casting the blame for it on God. "and not even allow the possibility to be made alive" as you say above assumes that salvation is not grace, but rather something owed to all mankind, and that, by God. If he saves anyone, he must save everyone, or give everyone equal opportunity. It also shows that you do not believe, and was also stated, that God does not make us alive while we are dead in sin.

So please tell me what does make us alive while we are dead in sin?