Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

[Eleanor]

Which was refuted in post 16

Faith comes by hearing

Yes, there must be an object/content to have faith in.
Prior to that, faith is just the power to believe, having no object to believe in.

and hearing by the word of God.

"Faith is from hearing and the hearing through a word of Christ" (being preached) (Ro 10:17).

There is no operative faith or object of faith without the word of God.

Faith comes (operates) by God's word alone.

While the word is not a PRODUCER OF FAITH, it is the SOURCE OF FAITH.

These are Gods words not mine

The producer of faith is the sovereign Holy Spirit in the new birth (Jn 3:3-8), before which one is spiritually dead, deaf, blind and lame.

The object of faith is the word of God.

 

[QVQ]

Lurkers? What say you?

As a Lurker
IT is not either/or.
Faith leads a person to the Word and the Word leads a person to Faith.

Faith affirms the Word. The Word embodies Faith
There must be Faith, an awarness of God, then a person can hear the Word and say "Amen."
Awareness of God is spiritual sensitivity thus regeneration.

 

[ReverendRV]

As a Lurker
IT is not either/or.
Faith leads a person to the Word and the Word leads a person to Faith.

Faith affirms the Word. The Word embodies Faith
There must be Faith, an awarness of God, then a person can hear the Word and say "Amen."
Awareness of God is spiritual sensitivity thus regeneration.

Well said...

You all would be surprised to hear what I think about the Logical and Temporal Orders...

 

[makesends]

Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.

While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God.

quoting, so it won't be lost in your answer:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.
While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God."

So what "produces" faith?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Awareness of God is spiritual sensitivity thus regeneration.

Where can I find this?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

quoting, so it won't be lost in your answer:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.
While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God."

So what "produces" faith?

what produced faith in you to trust your boss, Your parents. Your spouse? Any person you ever trusted.

did it just pop up out of no where? Or was it earned, was it given to you be the one you trusted?

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

To what? To this?

"Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?"

I figured my answer is one everyone knows. I would say absolutely not, it's all God, the internal call is what is salvific.

The external matches the internal only. The internal comes first, and God opens our hearts to receive the external message in salvific response to His effectual calling.

That's just what I think. Not a know it all.

I think God made preachers because we like hearing God's word, taught beautifully. There's nothing better. It feeds something inside of us, and is nice.

Have to be careful. there are some very charismatic. great talkers that will lead you astray. because they have no truth

 

[Eleanor]

what produced faith in you to trust your boss, Your parents. Your spouse? Any person you ever trusted.

Spiritual trust and natural trust do not have the same origin.

did it just pop up out of no where? Or was it earned, was it given to you be the one you trusted?

Natural trust is earned, spiritual trust is given.

 

[Josheb]

Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?

No, and even if it did that "faith" would be a faith of the sinful flesh, a product of a sinful, hostile mind of flesh informing the will of a sin-enslaved and sinfully dead sinner. There's no basis in scripture for anything sinful causally contributing to salvation. At its barest essence such a premise would mean God uses sin to save from sin. That is irrational.

However, Were I an equal-opportunity critic trying my best to answer this question as objectively as possible I would question the wording of the question itself. What, exactly, is an "external call" of the gospel. That sounds like a man-made doctrinal term, so the question is inherently asking something extra-biblical. The gospel, the good news that Jesus is the means of salvation due to his victorious over sin and death, does not have a voice of its own. How would anyone hear the gospel unless it was preached..... by someone? Therefore, if the question is asking, "Can merely hearing the words describing and explaining the gospel produce faith in the heart of the sinner - the sinfully dead and enslaved sinner - sufficient to save that individual from his sin?" then the answer is an unequivocal, "No," for the reasons listed above. If, on another hand, the question is implying the gospel has its own "call," and that call itself causes changes in the sinner, changes that produce faith sufficient to save from the lethal and enslaving sin..... then the question is nonsensical and there is no answer to its inquiry other than to note its inherent fallacious nature and correct its wording along with defining its terms.

If faith is the result from the preaching of the word, the hearer must possess subjective receptivity, Wouldn’t someone have to have a state of mind that is capable of faith?

Again, the inquiry is flawed because faith is not an intellectual function of the mind. Mind (cognition) and volition are not synonymous. That distinction is one of the reasons the monergism v synergism debate has ensued for hundreds of years: the Bible states very little about the will, especially the sinner's will. The question, therefore, would have to be something like, "Wouldn't that sinner have to have a state of mind capable of informing a salvific faith, a faith adequate enough to have salvific merit while still in the sinfully dead and enslaved state?" The answer to that question is, "Yes, that 'state' would necessarily have to exist beforehand but that is not a scriptural possibility given passages like Romans 1 and 8, which describe the mind of the sinner as futilely thinking, hostile too God and incapable of pleasing God (presumably asserting a faith through which a sinner could be saved would please God).

So how can the external call of the gospel by itself, produce faith in the heart of the natural fallen man?

It cannot.

 

[QVQ]

Where can I find this?

First define what "this" is.
It is the desire of the heart. It is a natural fact that a person cannot love or seek what a person does not love or want.

The Gospel, in and of itself, does not have the power to convert anyone.
To the sinner, dead in sin, it is an "old fairy tale" without meaning or relevance.
Man claims the power of words to change men's minds but no one has the power to change the heart, save God.
Changing minds is a "maybe" proposition. A person, intellectually, can believe one thing today and believe the opposite the next day.
The heart is steady and it takes an Act of God to regenerate Love of God in a sinner's heart.

 

[Hazelelponi]

Have to be careful. there are some very charismatic. great talkers that will lead you astray. because they have no truth

Not being rude, but charismatic is not a word I have ever heard uttered about a Calvinist. I do like hearing the word of God, that's not something anyone should fear.

The people who prey on weak women seem to mainly be charismatic or the freewill types, if we are typing. How many Calvinistic people have ever fleeced multiple million dollar mansions and private jets out of an unsuspecting public?

And just for kicks, I would like to express I am not a weak woman.

 

[ReverendRV]

Not being rude, but charismatic is not a word I have ever heard uttered about a Calvinist. I do like hearing the word of God, that's not something anyone should fear.

The people who prey on weak women seem to mainly be charismatic or the freewill types, if we are typing. How many Calvinistic people have ever fleeced multiple million dollar mansions and private jets out of an unsuspecting public?

And just for kicks, I would like to express I am not a weak woman.

I am glad you are On-Guard...

 

[makesends]

To what? To this?

"Can the external call of the gospel by itself produce faith in the heart of the natural man?"

I figured my answer is one everyone knows. I would say absolutely not, it's all God, the internal call is what is salvific.

The external matches the internal only. The internal comes first, and God opens our hearts to receive the external message in salvific response to His effectual calling.

That's just what I think. Not a know it all.

I think God made preachers because we like hearing God's word, taught beautifully. There's nothing better. It feeds something inside of us, and is nice.

One thing that makes me smile, because it is so beautiful, and in keeping with how 'God uses the weak things', is the phenomenon of God using human faulty thinking, faulty language and faulty communication to get across truth that the faulty hearer would not otherwise comprehend!

 

[makesends]

what produced faith in you to trust your boss, Your parents. Your spouse? Any person you ever trusted.

did it just pop up out of no where? Or was it earned, was it given to you be the one you trusted?

Please try to make a cogent statement there. Seems to be missing a word or two.

makesends said:
quoting, so it won't be lost in your answer:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.
While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God."

So what "produces" faith?

what produced faith in you to trust your boss, Your parents. Your spouse? Any person you ever trusted.

did it just pop up out of no where? Or was it earned, was it given to you be the one you trusted?

I will guess that what you are saying here is in keeping with (or a repetition of) what you have said before.

You first said that hearing doesn't produce faith ("While hearing does nto produce faith..."). Now you seem to say it did. I'm trying to get you to show the distinction you invoke by saying that it does not produce faith, though you do say that hearing is the source of faith

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Not being rude, but charismatic is not a word I have ever heard uttered about a Calvinist. I do like hearing the word of God, that's not something anyone should fear.

When I say charismatic, I do not mean the church. I am talking about they way the speak..

The people who prey on weak women seem to mainly be charismatic or the freewill types, if we are typing. How many Calvinistic people have ever fleeced multiple million dollar mansions and private jets out of an unsuspecting public?

I thought we were talking about how people speak. Not what people have done?

And just for kicks, I would like to express I am not a weak woman.

I never said you were.. But as the lord says through Peter,

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil walks about like a roaring lion, seeking whom he may devour.

We also have this warning from pau

2 cor 11: 12 But what I do, I will also continue to do, that I may cut off the opportunity from those who desire an opportunity to be regarded just as we are in the things of which they boast. 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also transform themselves into ministers of righteousness, whose end will be according to their works.


We all need to be on the guard. I will say. If we think we are strong and would never be deceived. well as a great brother once told me (I used to say this) that's when Satan has you.. He will use our pride against us. Many a great men of God has fallen pray.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

Please try to make a cogent statement there. Seems to be missing a word or two.

makesends said:
quoting, so it won't be lost in your answer:
"Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word.
While hearing does nto produce faith it is the source of faith. Because the source is God."

So what "produces" faith?

I am sorry, I tried to ask questions.. to help you understand better what I see.
Let me try to rephrase. Think of the people in your life you trust. Your parents. Your boss? Your Spouse? Your kids? Your best friend? (if you trust any of them)

What produced this faith you had in them?

did it just pop up out of no where? One second it was not there. the next second wow. you trust them completely)

Or was it earned, Did they earn your faith or trust in them, because they showed they could be trusted? (I do not believe in Blind faith.)

or was it given to you be the one you trusted? through time and effort showing you they could be trusted?

I will guess that what you are saying here is in keeping with (or a repetition of) what you have said before.

You first said that hearing doesn't produce faith ("While hearing does nto produce faith..."). Now you seem to say it did.

Actually no

The hearing does not produce faith

faith comes by hearing, and hearing by what? The word of God.

when you hear the word. does something happen. or is it dead I love this passage

Heb 4: 11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience. 12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13 And there is no creature hidden from His sight, but all things are naked and open to the eyes of Him to whom we must give account.

the reason people do not hear the word. Is because it cuts through them, it forces them to see God for who he is. and brings what they have been hiding to the surface.

I'm trying to get you to show the distinction you invoke by saying that it does not produce faith, though you do say that hearing is the source of faith

Let me try to rephrase it

Faith come by hearing (if you do not hear. you can not believe

And hearing comes by the word (God, the logos, the word of God)

The word is the source of faith. But if you do not hear it. It will do no good.

 

[Eternally-Grateful]

I said the above as part of a longer post. To which @Eternally-Grateful replied:



Now, on this or other forums the pastors I link to are Sproul, Baucham, Washer, Spurgeon etc and the sites I link to are from places like Ligonier ministries, monergistic.com or whatever (they have good stuff) or occasionally got questions. Books I quote from I own, and are things like systematic theologies and books written by various professors from reputable colleges.

I'm not stupid. I traded my whole life for this and my surety is in my God, not myself.

I have to wonder why my comment about enjoying a good sermon could lead to the post above?

If I've been led astray in your view then your basically saying Islam was right, because your arguing against what led me here.

Just saying. You might want to consider things before you decide people are just prideful.

Sis, You have totally misread me and took me wrong. I would say this to everyone.. I love great teachers also. But we must head the warnings of God. that satan can come and mislead us..

I was not mocking your teachers or anyone elses teachers. I was giving a suggestion to you and the room. we need to be careful

 

[Carbon]

the reason people do not hear the word. Is because it cuts through them, it forces them to see God for who he is. and brings what they have been hiding to the surface.

Let me try to rephrase it

Faith come by hearing (if you do not hear. you can not believe

And hearing comes by the word (God, the logos, the word of God)

The word is the source of faith. But if you do not hear it. It will do no good.

Are you aware there are a couple of different types of faith?

 

[Carbon]

@Eternally-Grateful
For example, there is a historical faith and there is a saving faith. Do you understand the difference?

 

[makesends]

I said the above as part of a longer post. To which @Eternally-Grateful replied:



Now, on this or other forums the pastors I link to are Sproul, Baucham, Washer, Spurgeon etc and the sites I link to are from places like Ligonier ministries, monergistic.com or whatever (they have good stuff) or occasionally got questions. Books I quote from I own, and are things like systematic theologies and books written by various professors from reputable colleges.

I'm not stupid. I traded my whole life for this and my surety is in my God, not myself.

I have to wonder why my comment about enjoying a good sermon could lead to the post above?

If I've been led astray in your view then your basically saying Islam was right, because your arguing against what led me here.

Just saying. You might want to consider things before you decide people are just prideful.

Surety in God is not pride.

I could be wrong, but, I don't think @Eternally-Grateful meant what he said as an attack: I come from a 9-sibling family that thrived on one-upmanship. If someone said something, the other would say, "Well, yes, but...". If one told a joke, another would try to improve on it. You will see me doing this here, a lot. I can't seem to help myself-- no matter how many times I have had to swallow my urges and delete what I have written, I still keep doing it.

To me he sounded like how I keep adding to what, more often to @Arial probably than to anyone else, though I doubt anybody here has not heard me adding to, or amending, or otherwise saying, "Yes, but..." to what they said --not to contradict, but to correct or further define, etc.