Bible version

[David1701]

@Sereni-tea If you need some example verses, try looking up these in the NIV and NKJV, or KJV, (e.g. on biblegateway.com).

Deity of Christ - 1 Tim. 3:16 (MKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

The NIV has "He", instead of "God". The reading "He" (actually "Who", with male gender, in the Greek of the CT) is found in a tiny handful of manuscripts and about 98.5% of extant Greek manuscripts that have that verse read "God". The difference is only a stroke, in Greek, so the reading "Who" is clearly a scribal error, which, sadly, obliterates the testimony to the deity of Christ in that verse (who is "Who"?).

Omnipresence of Christ during his ministry - John 3:13 (MKJV) And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of man who is in Heaven.

The NIV omitted "...who is in heaven.".

Faith is a pre-requisite for water baptism - Acts 8:36-38 (MKJV)
36 And as they passed along the way, they came on some water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?
37 Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

The NIV missed out verse 37 altogether.

Signs should follow the preaching of the gospel - Mark 16: 15-18 (MKJV)
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.

Mark 16:9-20 had great doubt cast on it by the note in the NIV I used. It stated that the whole passage is not in the "earliest and best manuscripts", which is very deceptive.

 

[Fred]

@Sereni-tea If you need some example verses, try looking up these in the NIV and NKJV, or KJV, (e.g. on biblegateway.com).

Deity of Christ - 1 Tim. 3:16 (MKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

The NIV has "He", instead of "God". The reading "He" (actually "Who", with male gender, in the Greek of the CT) is found in a tiny handful of manuscripts and about 98.5% of extant Greek manuscripts that have that verse read "God". The difference is only a stroke, in Greek, so the reading "Who" is clearly a scribal error, which, sadly, obliterates the testimony to the deity of Christ in that verse (who is "Who"?).

1 Timothy 3:16 still teaches the Deity of Christ even with the "He" in it.
Christ was preached among the nations. The same Greek word is used concerning the gospel that was preached by Paul (Romans 10:8) in the context that Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13; cf. Joel 2:32).

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

You clearly have not studied the differences between the underlying texts.

I can remember, clearly, trying to prove certain important doctrines from my NIV, in the late 1980s, and, again and again, I found that the strongest verses were either missing, or weakened. It was still possible to demonstrate the important doctrines, but not nearly as easy as with my NKJV.

Then there are the footnotes... When you get to Mark 16:9, and you see a note telling you that verses 9-20 are not in the "oldest and best manuscripts", what are you to think? Are these verses inspired by the Holy Spirit and completely trustworthy, or are they uninspired junk (it's one or the other)? If they are inspired, then the note needs to go! If they are uninspired, then the verses need to go. The one thing that you cannot do, is what the NIV (and other) translators did - leave the verses in, but cast doubt on them. Doing this demonstrates a disregard for the word of God in general and influences people to doubt the verbal inspiration of Scripture.

Verses 9-20 are in nearly every Greek manuscript that contains the ending of Mark (with slight variations) - many hundreds of them. They are missing from THREE manuscripts (one of which is not treated as important by anyone), manuscripts that disagree with each other as often as they agree and that are riddled with copyists errors. To call these "oldest and best" is deceptive, to say the least, especially when the vast weight of countervailing evidence is completely ignored (compare the note in the NKJV, which is MUCH better).

I could go on all day about the details, but the generality is clear - the heart behind translations like the Geneva and KJV is not the same as the doubting disregard that is displayed in most modern translations (with a few honourable exceptions).

I have studied some of the differences actually.

I'm just concerned that a potential "Gail Riplinger" moment is involved in the reasoning here.

 

[David1701]

1 Timothy 3:16 still teaches the Deity of Christ even with the "He" in it.
Christ was preached among the nations. The same Greek word is used concerning the gospel that was preached by Paul (Romans 10:8) in the context that Jesus is YHWH (Romans 10:13; cf. Joel 2:32).

You and I know that the "He" refers to Christ, who was God manifest in the flesh; but the verse itself doesn't say that (in the CT translations).

 

[David1701]

I have studied some of the differences actually.

I'm just concerned that a potential "Gail Riplinger" moment is involved in the reasoning here.

Rather than implying guilt by association, why don't you point out where you think I'm wrong, and supply evidence to support your claim?

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Rather than implying guilt by association, why don't you point out where you think I'm wrong, and supply evidence to support your claim?

Implications are assumptions based on what people say or don't say. I never said you were wrong ever.

I would say that if modern Christians today have no problem with the modern translations and this has nothing to do with the 19th Century Critical schools of Biblical liberalism and atheistic skepticism that influenced (apparently) these modern translations, I cannot see the reasons for believing older translations like the KJV are superior. It seems a bit paranoid or something. If there are actual reasons for believing the modern translations are somehow corrupt, I want to know those reasons and I don't want to be left guessing what they are. Would you do me the courtesy of explaining the reasons you think they are corrupt based on your personal beliefs?

 

[David1701]

Implications are assumptions based on what people say or don't say. I never said you were wrong ever.

I would say that if modern Christians today have no problem with the modern translations and this has nothing to do with the 19th Century Critical schools of Biblical liberalism and atheistic skepticism that influenced (apparently) these modern translations, I cannot see the reasons for believing older translations like the KJV are superior. It seems a bit paranoid or something. If there are actual reasons for believing the modern translations are somehow corrupt, I want to know those reasons and I don't want to be left guessing what they are. Would you do me the courtesy of explaining the reasons you think they are corrupt based on your personal beliefs?

There are numerous reasons.

1) The tiny minority of manuscripts used for the underlying Greek NT, in the CT translations, disagree with each other an inordinate number of times.

2) The general usage of the believing Church, down through the ages has been Majority Text type manuscripts.

3) The important differences nearly always weaken, or remove, testimony to some important doctrine, in the CT.

4) The inventors of the CT were heretics.

5) Most of the maintainers of the CT are heretics.

A sound translation should be based on the Majority Text (or TR), for the above reasons (there are some modern translations based on these, and, as far as I know, they are all sound; whereas, a number of those based on the CT are anything but).

 

[Sereni-tea]

@Sereni-tea If you need some example verses, try looking up these in the NIV and NKJV, or KJV, (e.g. on biblegateway.com).

Deity of Christ - 1 Tim. 3:16 (MKJV) And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen by angels, preached among nations, believed on in the world, and received up into glory.

The NIV has "He", instead of "God". The reading "He" (actually "Who", with male gender, in the Greek of the CT) is found in a tiny handful of manuscripts and about 98.5% of extant Greek manuscripts that have that verse read "God". The difference is only a stroke, in Greek, so the reading "Who" is clearly a scribal error, which, sadly, obliterates the testimony to the deity of Christ in that verse (who is "Who"?).

Omnipresence of Christ during his ministry - John 3:13 (MKJV) And no one has ascended up to Heaven except He who came down from Heaven, the Son of man who is in Heaven.

The NIV omitted "...who is in heaven.".

Faith is a pre-requisite for water baptism - Acts 8:36-38 (MKJV)
36 And as they passed along the way, they came on some water. And the eunuch said, See, here is water, what hinders me from being baptized?
37 Philip said, If you believe with all your heart, it is lawful. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still. And they both went down into the water, both Philip and the eunuch. And he baptized him.

The NIV missed out verse 37 altogether.

Signs should follow the preaching of the gospel - Mark 16: 15-18 (MKJV)
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.

Mark 16:9-20 had great doubt cast on it by the note in the NIV I used. It stated that the whole passage is not in the "earliest and best manuscripts", which is very deceptive.

I understand your concerns, but I don't think any of these 'omissions' or 'changes' weaken anything. The Bible as a whole testifies to Christ, not just an individual verse.

 

[Bob Carabbio]

Which bible version(s) do you use most?

KJV. over the last 70 years, I've learned a good many of the "Workarounds" for the areas of bad translation (like John 21:15-19). ANd being familiar with the LANGUAGE, make looking up stuff in concordances easy.

 

[David1701]

I understand your concerns, but I don't think any of these 'omissions' or 'changes' weaken anything. The Bible as a whole testifies to Christ, not just an individual verse.

That's the same kind of argument as saying that 50% is not weaker than 80%, in an exam. You would still have passed, but 50% is definitely a lot worse than 80%.

 

[Fred]

You and I know that the "He" refers to Christ, who was God manifest in flesh; but the verse itself doesn't say that (in the CT translations).

I know the verse doesn't say the boldface above.

 

[Fred]

Signs should follow the preaching of the gospel - Mark 16: 15-18 (MKJV)
15 And He said to them, Go into all the world, proclaim the gospel to all the creation.
16 He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned.
17 And signs will follow to those believing these things: in My name they will cast out demons; they will speak new tongues;
18 they will take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it will not hurt them. They will lay hands on the sick, and they will be well.

Mark 16:9-20 had great doubt cast on it by the note in the NIV I used. It stated that the whole passage is not in the "earliest and best manuscripts", which is very deceptive.

The Gospel of Mark ends at 16:8.

 

[civic]

The Gospel of Mark ends at 16:8.

ditto

 

[Fred]

ditto

a. Mark 16:9-20 is:
(1) "...the inauthentic Marcan ending..." (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament 5:240, oneidizō, Schneider)
(2) "...the false Marcan ending..." (Theological Dictionary of the New Testament 3:753, kleis, Jeremias)

b. Mark 16:8 is:
(1) "...the virtually unanimous verdict of modern textual scholarship" (The Gospel of Mark, R. T. France, page 685)
(2) "...the authentic text..." (New International Dictionary of New Testament Theology 2:359, Joy, Beyreuther and Finkenrath)

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

Now we need to know if handling snakes really is a good thing to do...

 

[Carbon]

Now we need to know if handling snakes really is a good thing to do...

I wouldn’t recommend it.

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

I wouldn’t recommend it.

That's only because you don't have enough faith.

 

[David1701]

The Gospel of Mark ends at 16:8.

Here is the ending of Mark, according to you.

Mark 16:1-8 (WEB)
1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3 They were saying among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?”
4 for it was very big. Looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back.

5 Entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were amazed.
6 He said to them, “Don’t be amazed. You seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen. He is not here. Behold, the place where they laid him!
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He goes before you into Galilee. There you will see him, as he said to you.’”

8 They went out, and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had come on them. They said nothing to anyone; for they were afraid.

Does anyone, apart from Fred and Civic, think that this is a remotely appropriate place to end a gospel?

The manuscript evidence is that 98.5% of extant Greek manuscripts that contain the ending of Mark, have verses 9-20 (with slight variations) - many hundreds of them. Of the rest, precisely three manuscripts end at verse 8. One of the three is not regarded as important by anyone; the other two disagree with each other over 3,000 times, in the gospels alone, and are riddled with copyists errors.

Here is the footnote re. this, from the NKJV, "Vv. 9-20 are bracketed in NU as not in the original text. They are lacking in Codex Sinaiticus and Codex Vaticanus, although nearly all other mss. of Mark contain them.".

Here is the footnote from the World English Bible, "NU includes the text of verses 9-20, but mentions in a footnote that a few manuscripts omitted it. The translators of the World English Bible regard Mark 16:9-20 as reliable based on an overwhelming majority of textual evidence, including not only the authoritative Greek Majority Text New Testament, but also the TR and many of the manuscripts cited in the NU text.".

 

[Dave_Regenerated]

David, would you recommend any Study Bible?

 

[Fred]

Here is the ending of Mark, according to you.

No, according to Mark 16:8.

Mark 16:1-8 (WEB)
1 When the Sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint him.
2 Very early on the first day of the week, they came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3 They were saying among themselves, “Who will roll away the stone from the door of the tomb for us?”
4 for it was very big. Looking up, they saw that the stone was rolled back.

5 Entering into the tomb, they saw a young man sitting on the right side, dressed in a white robe, and they were amazed.
6 He said to them, “Don’t be amazed. You seek Jesus, the Nazarene, who has been crucified. He has risen. He is not here. Behold, the place where they laid him!
7 But go, tell his disciples and Peter, ‘He goes before you into Galilee. There you will see him, as he said to you.’”

8 They went out, and fled from the tomb, for trembling and astonishment had come on them. They said nothing to anyone; for they were afraid.

Does anyone, apart from Fred and Civic, think that this is a remotely appropriate place to end a gospel?

Why not?